Curse

Amalek · Oct 03, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

ITT people rage at Nadia without reading posts.

Or, alternately, spiritway players rage at Nadia for saying anything remotely negative about the amount of skill it takes to play spiritway.

Take your pick.

VinnyRidira · Oct 03, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

I love how the ones who were hardcore against this are core Necros themselves. A little bias are we here? Haha.

But yeah I totally agree with Aethon, seems Necros are better Rits than the Ritualists now. Why don't they give Ritualists the ability to gain energy from spirit deaths and the Necros gain energy from fleshy or near-fleshy creatures (allies, enemies, pets, minions, etc). I would love that if that came in effect.

I play all kinds of chars and leave SR alone. Separate PvP from PvE totally because all the stupid nerfs seems to originate in the PvP area.

kazjun · Oct 05, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I think you're reading a bit too heavily into the wrong things. I didn't point that out in defense of my arguments, but rather as the reason why I was raising those arguments to begin with. Monk is a lot harder to play effectively than N/Rt.

Ugh. I have asked, point blank, at least twice already, what effect Spirit Reaping would have on PvE Necro functionality. No one has answered, and the lack of any such elucidation has got me a bit suspicious. I'm not talking about "Nerfing SR" in a broad or over-arching sense (certainly not even anything on par with the timer nonsesnse); I'm just talking about dropping SR from spirits and removing the timer.

Here I must make another important point, since many people seem to be arguing with me on entirely false premises (I know I've written a lot, but if you actually read it all, it really helps). Many have lept to SR's defense by invoking the costs/conditions of Necromancer Spells, which you need to realize are not used in a N/Rt backline build. Again: N/Rts do not use any necromancer skills. Got it? So I'm not really complaining about SR in general; I'm complaining that SR is being exploited as not only a passive battery, but one that's better than just about every other active battery in the game.

Back when ANet nerfed things like "Incoming!" and "Shields Up!" they presented the reasoning that they were trying to do away with passive party protection in PvP. They claimed they were trying to move PvP into a more proactive environment. What did we get? We got a stale meta where N/Rts and their cohorts let spirits and pets do a great deal of the legwork for them. Again, I don't think the build (as a whole) is overpowered, but the backline can be; and very much so.

If you really think, after all I've written on the subject, that I'm advocating a "SR Nerf" without "thinking it through," I somehow doubt any amount of exposition would ever be sufficient, regarless of its accuracy.

Um, because effective emanagement is required for keeping a team alive for any meaningful amount of time under any meaningful amount of pressure. Because my whole argument is that the N/Rt Spirit Battery (emanagement) is both more powerful and easier to use than any viable monk alternative.

Then you don't know what you're talking about. In HA at least N/Rts are usually more successful, which is part of the reason why they're so much more common than monks. I would guess, off the top of my head, that about half of all casters in HA at any one time ar N/Rts. Maybe a little less than half, but not by much. Go there sometime and check out the party screen; watch the chat and tell me how many "N/Rt LFG" you see versus "Ele/Mes/Monk/whatever LFG." Based on some of the arguments I've heard from you so far, you might actually be surprised.

Again, I'm not saying Spirit Batteries aren't without their limitations or conditions; I'm simply contending that those conditions are more easily met (mainly since you don't have to maintain enchants or stand in certain places) and are usually more powerful once they are. One or the other would be fine, but that's a one-two punch that smacks of IMBA to me. Thankfully most people don't know how to take full advantage of it (and insist on running things like trappers alongside them, which have absolutely zero effect on a team that knows what its doing), so it doesn't always do as well it could.

I'll grant that the N/Rt build is pretty standard and doesn't allow for a wide degree of variation, but that doesn't make it any less powerful under the conditions which it is built to operate.

If your argument is that N/Rt's are easier tp play, then yes I agree with you. It's like SF, a blind, one armed monkey could play it. That doesn't make it superior.

And I ask you, why should every N/Rt be restricted as to what they can do just cause you believe that they are replacing monks in 8v8 backlines? People ask for more N/Rt's for the same reason people asked for SF nukers in pve. Cause they're easy to play and you can be pretty sure what you're getting. If you pick up a N/Rt you can be pretty sure of what they can do, and their individual skill is less important. Unlike picking up some monk. If you've never played with him before, you don't really have much to go on as to how he'll play. Again, doesn't mean a N/Rt is inherently superior to a monk. Certainly not to a point as to rip out a play option for a whole lot of people. Or do you want a special rule in HA that Necs can't go N/Rt? Weapon spells and urns can't be stripped either you know. Again, if I knew the player, I'd ask him to bring a monk not a N/Rt. But I remember when I was beginning, getting a decent monk to join a R3 or below? Not so easy. And the ones that would join were either really good or really bad. Take a N/Rt? You can be pretty sure of the standard.

As for better emanagement, again, conditional. You try playing a N/Rt under spirts like qz etc like I said in an earlier post. You try playing after unnatural rapes all your spirits at no energy cost. Your spirits go down and stay down. They aegis your thumpers and then roll you up and spit you out. Trust me, I've played both as and against N/Rt. Know thy enemy and all that.

And as you yourself say, it's predictable as hell. It's like seeing a W/E pull out a FDS. You sigh and pull out your +10 fire and kite him around. You see a N/Rt and him laying down spirits, and you could pretty much say exactly what's on his bar. You also have a pretty good idea what his 7 teammates are running. You can't do that against monks that easily. And yes, there are a lot of spiritway teams in HA. So what? That just means you can justifiy using some slots to kill them and be pretty sure they're not wasted skill slots. So, good if you know what you're doing, yes? And if you're new or don't really know much about pvp, it gives newbs a place to start. Maybe even a chance to get some rank so they can get into a more balanced party. Like IWAY used too. Remember how many played that till they could get a decent enough rank? Again, easy to play but also easy to counter if you know you're coming up against it. Yes, if you're new and trying to play balance, or just in a random team without any thought about team planning, then you'll get spanked. You'd deserve it. But try some of my suggestions for killing spirit way, and you'll find they fall as easy as anything else. Hell, do some thinking about team builds and counters yourself, it's not that hard. Why do you think pve's so easy? Cause you KNOW exactly what you're coming up against, and can prepare to counter it. More so. One trick ponies are really easy to prepare for. Even better if you know there's good chance that you'll face a good number of teams all running the same thing. So, good for experienced and for new players as well. Hell, if they're serious about pvp, they'll learn the weaknesses of spiritway and either think of ways to optimise it (good for a better challenge) or they'll become spiritway killers themselves. Tell me why that's a bad thing?

freaky naughty · Oct 05, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Damn I wish I discoverd this thread a while ago. Soul Reaping needed changes but not the huge nerf that Necros got a while ago. Soul Reaping is almost as useless as Divine Favor now.

Fitz Rinley · Oct 05, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

If you want your Necro to get his energy back from deaths, actually be a good team and kill things. If you can't do that why should you be rewarded for your own teammate deaths?

Spoken from the position of someone only concerned with PvP.

I have on many occasions seen where the Necros ability to gain energy from a sac was necessary to rescue a party from ambush, noob attack, or pirma-donna map-out. (Yes, griefers occur in PvE also - but they don't cost us match position, ranking, or faction.)

On one occasion I remember a near TPK from Noob attack during Borliss Pass Bonus where Alesia would raise our warrior, he would die, I would get energy and make a minion, rinse and repeat. And in that manner we were able to save the party, the bonus, and the mission. And well, the noob did recover from his 60 dp - eventually.

System works for PvE and does not need changed. The very fact that the Necro gets nothing until things start dying which very well can be too late to make a difference is a matter of where you place your priority in targetting. I always take down Gnashers first, then Dolyaks. If you take out the necro in PvP first - then you wont have to worry about them getting energy. They can reap all the souls they want while their dead and you wont have to worry about it.

Nadia Roark · Oct 05, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Kazjun, I don't really know how useful further discourse would be, but I'm well aware of what you've had to stay and I'm sticking to my opinion that the SR backline is both

Too powerful in relation to the difficulty it takes to play, and
Benefits an already powerful class.

Again, I'm not saying what I'm saying because I think its going to change anything, but as a Monk I can't help but feel marginalized by this perennial jack-of-all-trades. I also don't think very many of the OP's solutions are well-balanced ones, and most of the people who've been arguing with me seem to have been operating under the assumption that I was defending his suggestions.

I don't think the (FoTM) build that uses them is particularly powerful, but I've run that backline with different offense/utility, and the results were almost overwhelming. For all the complaining Necros do about being "hit hardest" by nerfs, they sure do seem to find ways around them. ANet acknowledged there was a problem with this and reduced SR's spirit return to 1/2, but it's clear that has done absolutely nothing and SR abuse continues unfettered (in HA at least).

Tyla · Oct 05, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

i say gizmo hasnt stepped foot into necromancerville,and i admit i play spiritway(yes....im only r1 heroes' ascent)
but isnt SR nerfed enough?
also i would like to say:SR should just not effect spirits and there we go.(also N/Rts own^^,but will never beat my LoD/RC hero monks)

gremlin · Oct 05, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Cannot all those in pvp just throw rocks at each other and leave the pve players with their skills intact as originally intended.

or

Have the skill sr work one way in pvp and another way in pve, If its a pvp problem then keep it in pvp.

street peddler · Oct 06, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Cant give rits ability to gain energy from spirits deaths because rits have skills that allow them to destroy spirits at will, it would unbalance things even further.

Nadia Roark · Oct 06, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Cannot all those in pvp just throw rocks at each other and leave the pve players with their skills intact as originally intended.

or

Have the skill sr work one way in pvp and another way in pve, If its a pvp problem then keep it in pvp.

I've tried to find out several times now just how dependent PvE Necros are on spirits for energy. I've never heard of a PvE necro requiring a spirit battery in my life, and the lack of replies to my question is only reinforcing this outlook. As far as I know, removing SR from spirits would have a negligible effect on PvE.

Again, I'd really like someone to weigh in on this; and if this thread was anywhere near productive, someone would have enlightened me a while ago. I don't understand why so many PvE players (I think only Kazjun has understood the breadth of my complaints) are attacking my proposal to remove SR from spirits and remove the 5 second timer. With SR from spirits gone, there's no reason to keep the timer since it was a half-assed attempt to gimp spirit batteries in the first place.

gremlin · Oct 06, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

I have played my Necro right through Prophesies Factions Nightfall "havnt finished that yet. and now have Gwen.

I have used mm and ss builds extensivly as well as a few taken from guildwiki and then customised to me.

One that works well for me is a reapers mark based build with that I have little use for more energy
Reapers mark/life siphon/lifebane strike/shadow strike/signet of lost souls/signet of sorrows are the main ones.
I have more energy and health coming my way that the sr just fills the gaps.

I would have never used spirits in that way deliberatly so have no interest in sr working with spirits at all, its a small occasional bonus but thats all it means to me.

I did experiment with a rit/necro build to use a skill which gave energy when spirits/animations where created and I think destroyed.
The build proved troublesome and the micromanagement didnt suit my playing style.

I guess we are all to a certain extent responding defensivly to other posts and threads.
There are many chicken little's around so sometimes we believe the sky is falling and respond accordingly.

I still feel on principal that if something is a problem in pvp and only in pvp it should be fixed in a way that doesn't effect pve.

Not because the proposed alteration to sr would cripple many necros but because the next skill alteration suggested, might cause much more serious problems to a pve skill use.

Viruzzz · Oct 06, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

soul reaping has always been and will always be extremely conditional. you're either hurting for energy or you can't spend it fast enough.
like when fighting a hard boss, nothing is dying so you're stuck in a long battle with no energy at all.
while in other parts of the game with frenzying warrior mobs you can't use all the energy you gain.

if you make it so example 2 is balanced and you only get a bit of energy, then soul reaping will be ABSOLUTELY useless in ANY other part of the game where you aren't killing a mob every second

kazjun · Oct 09, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Nadia Roark, I agree that there is probably little point to continuing our discussion. I don't think either one of us can sway the other.

I understand your concerns, and spiritway can be powerful. I just think it is too predictable and fragile if pressured right. Certainly not overpowered to the point SR warrants another nerf, which hits pretty much at the core of what it means to be a necro. As for being easy to play, I agree with you (ala SF). I just don't think it's overpowered, that's all. It may even be a bonus for some, since if they are just starting pvp it gives them an easy introduction like the old pvp templates did. Not too complex, a chance to be a bit more than an AL60 test dummy, and plenty of room to learn and then create their own builds. Hopefully

And yeah, Nadia certainly hasn't been supporting the OP's suggestions, which are pretty crazy, I mean, SR from enemies only...

I still hope that Nadia may consider situations outside a straight 8v8 backline though. Plenty play pve, and it could very well seriously effect their playstyle. I play mainly N/Me curses or MM in pve, so I'm not as sure about using rit spirits fully in pve, but there are a few things I've found useful. I like to combine Mark of pain and splinter weap to clear large areas of pve, and bloodsong is nice extra armour ignoring damage. Recuperation is also very nice with a large party, or when MMing. Though the old N/D MM is probably still superior. Just some things, I'm sure there are far better pve N/Rt's than me. But they do get used. So you shouldn't be too quick to write it off.

I guess we're just both guilty of loving our classes too much. Not that that's a bad thing that we're zealous. Even if you didn't choose the path of the necro

Nadia Roark · Oct 09, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Nadia Roark, I agree that there is probably little point to continuing our discussion. I don't think either one of us can sway the other.

Correct. Any attempt to change my mind on this would be like trying to fill the Grand Canyon with sand using a slotted spoon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I understand your concerns, and spiritway can be powerful. I just think it is too predictable and fragile if pressured right. Certainly not overpowered to the point SR warrants another nerf, which hits pretty much at the core of what it means to be a necro. As for being easy to play, I agree with you (ala SF).

I don't really mind that it's easy to play--the game will always need some kind of entry-level PvP role that people can settle into easily.

But you talk about hitting at the "core of what it means to be a necro." You have to understand that my SR fix (and this will sound kind of weird at first but bear with me) wouldn't actually affect Necros as such. It would affect people abusing SR to play as a Ritualist or a Monk or whatever else.

It all goes back to this weird conception I have of dual character classes. IMO, a secondary character class can and should be used by the player; but it should have a diminished utility when compared to the real thing. Good examples of this include the E/Mo EProd HP or Aegis spammer, Me/Mo Fast rezzers, and N/E Tainted Warders. Secondary professions should not bestow upon the user a functionality superior than running that class as a primary. Examples include N/Rt Healers and R/W Bunny Thumpers (but for some reason I still like Thumpers).

Again, it's not that it's easy to play, it's that it's way too powerful for how easy it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I just don't think it's overpowered, that's all.

...because you use it. Please at least make an attempt to be objective here

If you don't think its overpowered, you've obviously not played the alternative much. Play a prot or heal Monk for a few weeks and tell me how easy it was to keep your team up compared to running a N/Rt. Monks get more (gameplay) hate than any other class in the game excepting possibly warriors. Spiritwat is designed to shut down and distrupt Monks, while at the same time creating an environment under which your team can backline and theirs can't. It's the way of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

It may even be a bonus for some, since if they are just starting pvp it gives them an easy introduction like the old pvp templates did. Not too complex, a chance to be a bit more than an AL60 test dummy, and plenty of room to learn and then create their own builds. Hopefully

Again, I don't so much have a problem with entry-level PvP, but the whole point of an entry-level position is that the user will eventually move on from it. That is not happening. Why should it? There's no real reason to move over to a more "traditional" backline, when it'll usually just get flattened by the build you ran yesterday.

There isn't a single position in that build (Trapper, Rt, N/Rt, Thumper) that requires anything more than a cursory knowledge of the game and its mechanics. Thumpers can basically go AFK as long as they have a drinking bird onhand to tap the "Hammer Bash" key when necessary. Trappers? Just spam traps and someone will eventually walk into them. There will always be some positions that are easier to play than others, and I understand and respect this fact. That doesn't mean I should put up with the broken BS that these people exploit to make their jobs easier. This is supposed to be Player versus Player. Not "Player versus Spirit/Pet/Minion;" if I want that I'll go PvE. PvP needs to reward players who do the work themselves rather than letting spirits or pets or whatever do their jobs for them. Its my view that ANet made a big mistake with spirits in general, but that's another topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

And yeah, Nadia certainly hasn't been supporting the OP's suggestions, which are pretty crazy, I mean, SR from enemies only...

Indeed. I can't help but notice the wide majority of my detractors made for the hills after this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I still hope that Nadia may consider situations outside a straight 8v8 backline though. Plenty play pve, and it could very well seriously effect their playstyle. I play mainly N/Me curses or MM in pve, so I'm not as sure about using rit spirits fully in pve, but there are a few things I've found useful. I like to combine Mark of pain and splinter weap to clear large areas of pve, and bloodsong is nice extra armour ignoring damage. Recuperation is also very nice with a large party, or when MMing. Though the old N/D MM is probably still superior. Just some things, I'm sure there are far better pve N/Rt's than me. But they do get used. So you shouldn't be too quick to write it off.

I appreciate that we're trying to close this debate out and all, but this is infuriating beyond words. I have been asking for the last three goddamn pages what effect my changes would have on PvE Necros. No one has even attempted an answer.

Part of the reason I'm asking is because I honestly don't know if my idea is a good one; I'm not entirely sure what Necromancers do in PvE. I don't play Necro in PvE so I don't pretend to know anything about it (unlike folks who pretend to know what monking is like in 8v8). It's an honest question that I would very much like an answer to because it seems to me that if spirit batteries were so important, Necros would have seen about zero use before Factions. Since many of you were solo or dual farming UW before Factions, I would guess that PvE Necros aren't entirely dependent on spirit batteries to keep their energy reserves up.

I can't see why (espeically since Ritualist Heros are relatively uncommon) any PvE partisan would care about Spirit SR at all. I think people are arguing against it on principle rather than rationality--they don't want to see their primary attribute "nerfed" again, regardless of whether or not said "nerf" would actually impinge their day-to-day functionality. There was one guy in this thread earlier (who has obviously not played a minute of PvP) who defended SR on the basis that Monk emanagement was as good or better, citing Defenders Zeal in HM as an example. Arguments like these (along with Curse You's famous misquoting the OP as me and telling me to edit my post) tend to lose their credibility in my eyes, and strengthens my conviction rather than undermines it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

I guess we're just both guilty of loving our classes too much. Not that that's a bad thing that we're zealous. Even if you didn't choose the path of the necro

True, true. But I'll still stand by my observation that Necromancy already has a tremendous amount more use in PvP than Monking does: a Necro can deal direct damage, buff his party with attack or energy regen skills, he can hex spam, he can prot against degen pressure. Monks? What have we got? We can heal or prot. And now even the Necromancer can (usually) heal better than us. That, I suspect, is the root of my malcontent.