Curse

Wulfgast · Oct 01, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Anet should just delete the necromancer class.

Or maybe they should remove all primary attributes.

Here's an even crazier idea: we could possibly do our best to enjoy the game, rather than calling out for nerfs on every little thing that pisses us off.

Anybody remember the original Mario Kart? Those Bowser's Castle maps really got to me, but no one (that I know of) ever wrote to Nintendo requesting a nerfed copy of the game.

lishi · Oct 01, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wulfgast

Anet should just delete the necromancer class.

Or maybe they should remove all primary attributes.

Here's an even crazier idea: we could possibly do our best to enjoy the game, rather than calling out for nerfs on every little thing that pisses us off.

Anybody remember the original Mario Kart? Those Bowser's Castle maps really got to me, but no one (that I know of) ever wrote to Nintendo requesting a nerfed copy of the game.

the problem is pvp you cant ignore things because you bash your head constantly on them.

Deadlyjunk · Oct 01, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

Well think about it. How lame is it for Soul Reaping to trigger only 3 times in 15 min? I think that gives a more restricted feeling than being able to sap unlimited amounts of energy as long as your team is killing. Thats the note I'm trying to hit on. Why be rewarded when your team is losing?

The range then can stay. That's fine. And with your proposal about non-party members then we still have the spirit problem. There are so many spells and effects that say "Non-spirit allies" so why couldn't this get applied here as well?

I'm just not a fan of the idea that if your team is doing terribly and your party members are dying, why be rewarded with free energy? I see it as a motive to try harder and push with a stronger force to get that precious energy back. Do you understand what I mean?

/notsigned
Minion factory is lol² and relies on SR from allies. Killing it won't remove any imbalance from the game, it will only remove some more fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

And my specifications on where it is abused is mainly in the pvp world, with all the lame Spiritway bullshit. I am by no means arguing this because I lose to it because I don't, we roll these builds.

So what's the problem? Omg nerf paragons and remove Steady Stance from the game, zergway is winning games. Brainless people with a brainless build beat brainless people trying to play a good build or simply using a random build, nerfing the builds won't change that. As long as skill > soul reaping > zergway, there's really no problem.

Wulfgast · Oct 01, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

the problem is pvp you cant ignore things because you bash your head constantly on them.

Eh, fair 'nuff. I guess I don't do enough PvP to really feel any impact from this.

CyberMesh0 · Oct 01, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Solution: Restore SR to its original state, and remove benefits from spirits. Problem solved.

Emik · Oct 01, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I think there has been enough discussion about SR now to actually give it a rest.
People have adapted to the way it is now and please leave it be for once.

jrk247 · Oct 01, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Anet went through the testing, it's there game and they found a solution to fix it (SR was broken before) and have players agree with it.

And lol @ removing necros from the game.

zamial · Oct 02, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I remember the good ol' days back when you could have 30+ minions going. Necros have had the nerf bat drop on them the hardest out of any class. To say I can't benefit from my friends dieing is crap, I am a necromancer to the core. If your problem lies with some pvp, N/Rt's then propose you nerf the skill in pvp and leave the rest of us alone. I pve only and for 1 am sick of all the bitching lil pvp kiddies that scream WHAAA I can't beat this build so nerf it. FACT: PVP consists of 1/4 or less of the community, and those of us on forums are less than that. In short BACK OFF THE NECRO'S in pve we have suffered enough.

Nadia Roark · Oct 02, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

I remember the good ol' days back when you could have 30+ minions going. Necros have had the nerf bat drop on them the hardest out of any class. To say I can't benefit from my friends dieing is crap, I am a necromancer to the core. If your problem lies with some pvp, N/Rt's then propose you nerf the skill in pvp and leave the rest of us alone. I pve only and for 1 am sick of all the bitching lil pvp kiddies that scream WHAAA I can't beat this build so nerf it. FACT: PVP consists of 1/4 or less of the community, and those of us on forums are less than that. In short BACK OFF THE NECRO'S in pve we have suffered enough.

I can understand class loyalty (and I"m not thrilled with the changes they've made to SR either) but how does removing spirit reaping damage PvE functionality? Is there some killer spirit-reaping farming build I haven't seen yet? It sure seems to me like most of the folks arguing with me here aren't dedicated PvPers, yet they're arguing against what strikes me as a strictly PvP mechanic change.

I am proposing we "nerf [Spirit Reaping] in pvp and leave the rest," since I haven't observed PvE necros to be dependent on spirits for energy. My complaints are strictly limited to the power gained from backlining in an 8v8 PvP environment, where lots of things die and usually in rapid succession. If you don't PvP that's all well and good, but don't pretend I'm just as ignorant about what's on the other side of the fence as you seem to be. I'll be the first to admit I'm hardly a diehard PvE'er, but recognizing Spirit Reaping as a PvP phenomenon shouldn't require a godlike grasp of both PvE and PvP. So I guess my question is... if they removed SR from spirits, how much would it actually hurt you in PvE? It's an honest question: I don't play Necro in PvE. I tried, but it wasn't my thing.

Also, (what's the deal with the Necros here? Have you all got martyr complexes or what?) Necros have not been nerfed harder than "any class," and the suggestion that they have been is ignorant and myopic. I've watched ANet destroy energy management techniques for monks that were already inferior to Spirit Reaping. Remember how they nerfed GoLE + ZB at the same time? or how they took a wrecking ball to the entire dual smite build rather than one or two key skills? Sure, they were powerful, but as emanagement teqniques, only the latter of those two was actually superior to Spirit Reaping. I don't mind that they nerfed Glyph + ZB, but I do mind that they left a stronger combination untouched. I'm not necessarily making the case that monks have been nerfed harder (could you imagine a Divine Favor nerf?

); rather my point is that we've all taken our licks (and gotten our buffs) and Necros aren't horribly marginalized right now because of the changes ANet has made to them or other classes. Monks are.

My guess is that they're leaving Spirit Reaping in the game because it's more dependent on team tactics rather than the individual. Glyph + ZB or Dual smite was too powerful on one character's bar, but Spirit Reaping really only works if the rest of the team is doing its job. C'mon guys, I'm meeting you halfway here. There's no need to act like I'm trying to render your class absolutely useless (or, for that matter, even make it as useless as mine

), and I'm hardly complaining about spiritwat being impossible to beat. Just read the posts. I promise they make sense.

Johnny Madhouse · Oct 02, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

You write so much

But you don't say anything new

When the universe winds down

And you stand on the white cliffs of Dover

Watching humanity destroy itself

You will still care about SRs power balance

Nadia Roark · Oct 02, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Madhouse

You write so much

But you don't say anything new...

Excuse me, but I've had a lot more to say than "Leave them alone they've been nerfed enough." My points are perfectly valid and thoroughly explained. The fact that I have to keep reiterating them is not my fault. For all the arguing people have done with me, I've seen relatively few attempts to explain why Spirit Reaping isn't broken from someone who has anything resembling a fair amount of experience with both Spirit Reaping and "traditional" monk backlines. For the most part, people are just hurling "OMG THEY ALREADY NERFED SR!" or "OMG WHY THE NECRO HATE?!" at me without a terrible amount of explanation.

Look, I'm not implicitly agreeing with the OP's solutions, and I'm not determined that ANet needs to nerf this--I've put up with spirit reaping long enough and for all the complaining I've done about it, I don't find Spiritwat particularly hard to beat--I'm just cranky (here we go again with the repeating myself) that I'm marginalized by a character class that is already much more diverse than the Monk. I don't understand why the people here seem to be laboring under the impression that dropping SR from spirits would make necros useless.

Johnny Madhouse · Oct 02, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

It's "Soul Reaping" not "Spirit Reaping".

Yes, soul reaping is a powerful energy management attribute. Most primary attributes are. With the exception of mesmers and warriors, there is not a one class that does not use it's primary att in some way to reduce energy used. Rits have weapon spells that last longer, reducing the need to cast them. Even Monks have to heal less often with a high divine favor, because their skills heal for so much more.

I have played as both a necro and a monk, have a fair amount of experience with each, and can tell you that your arguments aren't all that good. Monks are the kings of healing, and they have good energy management skills of their own. Essence bond is rather nice, if your tank knows how to gain aggro well. Divine Favor makes your heals more powerful than any other class. Defender's Zeal is great, particularly in HM.

Trust me, the Soul Reaping nerf has gone far enough. Generally, enemies die fast enough that a necro often doesn't have the chance to eat every soul in the area, meaning they sometimes can't use their huge array of high-energy skills.

Quit complaining about Soul Reaping. You don't have enough experience yourself to be arguing for another nerf.

zamial · Oct 02, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

Ok, I do remember the days of running a minion factory in HA. I do not pvp anymore as it infuriates me. more skills in pve get nerfed because of pvp. I understand that the spirit reaping team is a good build, almost an exploit. But previous to the n/rt, was the teams of touchy rangers and bunny thumpers. Also take having hordes of minnions to having at most 10. Up the casting cost of most of my skills.

Why not just nerf out shadow form and arcane echo, I mean wouldn't a eternal SF sin stand there looking at all those necros and spirits laughing cause they can't kill him?

Let's nerf essence bond/balths spirit, i mean with life bond that is an eternal emanagment source.

The bottom line is :

YOU CAN NOT BEAT THE BUILD, SO THERFORE IT MUST BE NERFED,
IT IS TOO POWERFUL. THIS IS CRAP. BACK OFF NECROS. I HAVE NEVER , NOT 1 TIME ASKED FOR ANY NERF ON ANY CLASS. FIND ITS WEAKNESS AND EXPLOIT IT OR BE SILENT.

The rule of honor:

Anyone that invokes the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Any man that needs this law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant,"If I live, I will kill you. If I die you are forgiven." Such is the way of honor.

translation:
Any player that invokes the wrath of the nerf bat against his fellow player either can't run the build or can't beat it, and in either case is a poor player. For the good player will see the weakness in a "special team build" and carry its counter. Even if the team still out plays you, you say,"thanks for the match." or have no honor. your choice.

Nadia Roark · Oct 02, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Madhouse

It's "Soul Reaping" not "Spirit Reaping".

I use the term to distinguish between Soul Reaping in general, and the fact that Soul Reaping applies to spirits. I created the distinction to make clear that I don't feel Soul Reaping needs a complete rework--simply one aspect of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Madhouse

Yes, soul reaping is a powerful energy management attribute. Most primary attributes are. With the exception of mesmers and warriors, there is not a one class that does not use it's primary att in some way to reduce energy used. Rits have weapon spells that last longer, reducing the need to cast them. Even Monks have to heal less often with a high divine favor, because their skills heal for so much more.

It (aside possibly from Expertise) is the best primary attribute in the game, and that's kind of my point. The principle of "Game Balance" is the idea that we can create a skillset where any one attribute or skillset doesn't have a wide superiority over the others. I won't pretend to know what will make such a level playing field possible (or if it even is possible), but I think this would be a good place to start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Madhouse

I have played as both a necro and a monk, have a fair amount of experience with each, and can tell you that your arguments aren't all that good. Monks are the kings of healing,

..which is why the wide majority of people (okay, in HA at least) don't use them to heal anymore, right? Any such "king of healing" would surely also be powerful there. I'm not saying Monks don't make a good account for themselves as a class, but we certainly can't claim to be "kings" of the backline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Madhouse

and they have good energy management skills of their own. Essence bond is rather nice, if your tank knows how to gain aggro well. Divine Favor makes your heals more powerful than any other class. Defender's Zeal is great, particularly in HM.

Okay, this is the part where we need to realize (despite the fact that I've pointed this out a trillion times already) that I'm talking about PvP. All three of these examples--Divine Favor, Defender's Zeal, and Essence Bond--are crap in about 99% of practical PvP applications. Comparing DF to SR is like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Mclaren F1.

The real issue here (made obvious by the combination of you claiming to be "experienced" with playing monk, then in the next breath suggesting horrible emanagement options--all three of which are wildly inferior to Spirit Reaping), I suspect, is whether the game should be balanced around PvP or PvE. I would hope it wouldn't be necessary to pick sides, but as a general rule it's fairly easy to run pretty much whatever you want in PvE, and you'll manage somehow. Even so, I'd really like to hear how a Spirit Reaping nerf would impinge Necromancer PvE functionality. The persistence of PvE based arguments against my points would usually imply a strong opinion on those issues.

You tell me my "arguments aren't good" and then turn around and posit PvE examples as a solution to a complaint about PvP balance?

I'm arguing that:

SR is better than DF by a wide margin,
Does not require an enchantment be maintained,
SR allows a relative ease of movement, can be runed (obviously) unlike /Me enenrgy management options,
Spirit Reaping benefits a class already wildly more useful than the Monk (if you ever want me to stop repeating this, you could start by telling me why it doesn't) in PvP,
and that
At the very least, Monks and Necros should be on equal footing as PvP backline characters.

If you're going to tell me those aren't good arguments, respond to them within the context I'm raising them. Don't tell me that Defenders Zeal is "Good especially in HM" when PvE isn't the issue. Some skills (like GoLE or just looking at the screen) are fine enough for PvE use; but many are impractical at best in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Madhouse

Trust me, the Soul Reaping nerf has gone far enough. Generally, enemies die fast enough that a necro often doesn't have the chance to eat every soul in the area, meaning they sometimes can't use their huge array of high-energy skills.

Well, I'm not saying that Soul Reaping is always more effective than everything else; I'm just saying that the conditions under which it excels are generally very easily met in 8v8 PvP; in PvE it doesn't matter so much because if that many enemies die off that fast to begin with, chances are your huge array of high-energy skills weren't especially needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Madhouse

Quit complaining about Soul Reaping. You don't have enough experience yourself to be arguing for another nerf.

Interesting theory. Just out of curiousity, how did you find out how much experience I have? I've got 5600 fame, but I admit I haven't PvE'd much. I have a grand total of one maxed title, but I feel the fact that about 5000 of my fame has been earned in the backline gives me some manner of perspective on PvP backline balance. Not to imply I know what's best, but as long as my opponents insist on intoning that I don't know what I'm talking about, I've gotta defend myself somehow. I don't want anyone to think I'm saying "I'm right because I have 5600 fame," it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I certainly don't want to have to yank my boot out of my mouth when someone who has more disagrees. Let's try to focus less on how much we've played and more on the actual arguments and their relevance and accuracy?

Nevertheless, I would have thought it was obvious by now that I don't intend on ceasing my remarks about Spirit Reaping; and if you really think that telling me monks have good energy management in PvE is going to change my mind, you've got another thing coming.

And zamial, please pay attention to what I'm saying. I haven't said or suggested anywhere that spiritwat was a good build, and I've repeatedly made clear the fact that it's not impossible to beat and doesn't automatically outperfom the competition in all possible scenarios. Also, touch rangers have never (to my knowledge) been meta anywhere other than AB; if they get run in 8v8, it's usually as a joke.

zamial · Oct 02, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I apologize if i seemed a bit harsh before but this is the response you were asking to get. Instead of asking for a nerf, why not ask for buffs or the rewording of skills for balance play?

1 that sticks in my mind is frozen soil. If it is down a minion master can't make minions so why should a rit be able to make spirits?

Why does a rit/ anyone not drop an item the are holding if knocked down?

Why can't a weapon spell be disenchanted?

There is alot more the community could be asking to buff instead of nerf, just food for thought.

All in all, it is the ritulist class that needs modded or a counter too.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 02, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

1 that sticks in my mind is frozen soil. If it is down a minion master can't make minions so why should a rit be able to make spirits?

Because a ritualist isn't resurrecting people. A ritualist is binding spirits to the world. Binding, not resurrecting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Why does a rit/ anyone not drop an item the are holding if knocked down?

Could say the same for weapons, but that's not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

Why can't a weapon spell be disenchanted?

Because it's not an enchantment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

All in all, it is the ritulist class that needs modded or a counter too.

Please no, I'm still annoyed at the temporary Exhaustion nerf.

If we were overpowered there would be an actual demand for us in groups in PvE.

Guess what?

There isn't.

Guess what else?

PvE is the majority. Do you realize that if you start nerfing rits in PvP again, those nerfs carry on to PvE?

Also, a word on soul reaping: if you nerf it's gain from spirits you will damage the Spiritway team build, which is a build that is very useful for new players to learn more about HA and to gain fame, because the elitist, discriminatory HA player base tends to refuse people below a certain threshold. Unless you actually WANT to ensure there are no newcomers to HA? Because cutting off sources of experience and fame points is essentially telling new players 'Sorry, you aren't allowed here.' The HA Elitists will do the rest.

kazjun · Oct 02, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I'm arguing that:

SR is better than DF by a wide margin,
Does not require an enchantment be maintained,
SR allows a relative ease of movement, can be runed (obviously) unlike /Me enenrgy management options,
At the very least, Monks and Necros should be on equal footing as PvP Spirit Reaping benefits a class already wildly more useful than the Monk (if you ever want me to stop repeating this, you could start by telling me why it doesn't) in PvP,
and that
backline characters.

Are you still campaigning to nerf SR? Geez, I look in after a few days, and well, I'm surprised this has remained open so long. But anyway...

1. SR is better than DF by a wide margin
First, so what? I'd gladly trade strength for just about any other primary in the game. Does that mean that both SR and DF should be nerfed? Second, if SR is so ungodly good, why isn't every caster class in the game a N/X? Why are there monks at all, when obviously you could go a N/Mo for healing with unlimited energy? Why are there Mes, eles? Thirdly, a necro has to put about a third of their attrib points into it for it to do anything. Are you saying that for such an investment we shouldn't get any benefit from it? How much passive energy do you think DF is worth? Or expertise?

2. Does not require an enchantment be maintained
True. But you forget that it's often beyond the necro's control when they get energy, and when they don't due to the timer. Imagine if DF was on a timer, you only get a DF bonus every 3 minute or something. Deaths are hard to control as opposed to channelling where you know and have some control over when you get your energy. And you can bet that most will be on a N/Rt like white on rice as soon as the spirits drop.

3. SR allows a relative ease of movement, can be runed (obviously) unlike /Me enenrgy management options
A +1 to SR isn't exactly that big a deal considering we're already sinking 10+ points into the attrib anyway. Especially since we carry practically no other skills for it. So we are in fact sinking a third of our points into something purely for passive effect. And who do you think can keep people alive longer, a runed up monk, or a runed up necro. Yes, SR allows free movement. But are you saying that's unfair since we don't have to stop to cast for energy management? You do realise that a monk can live off 1/4 cast spells, but if I want to spirit spam I'm sitting there long enough to cop eviserate in the face and then an interrupt while I'm helpless? And unable to kite? You can almost charge cripslash from scratch in the time it takes to lay a spirit. A monk with channeling can kite like crazy and still keep up under heavy pressure teams. So who's got free movement?

4. Spirit Reaping benefits a class already wildly more useful than the Monk (if you ever want me to stop repeating this, you could start by telling me why it doesn't) in PvP,
If necro's as a class are so godly, why isn't every team composed of necro casters? You think HA is full of IV spike teams or something? Yeah, N/Rt can put down some good healing, and some condition removal but have pretty much no hex removal. Unlike monks. Most necro skills are slow or energy intensive. Unlike the mass of 5en 1/4 cast monk spells. And if you actually take down the spirits, we're pretty much helpless. You ever tried playing spiritway when your opponents have NR, QZ and energising down? And you got a train of warrs and assass locked on your rear? Or to stand there and look on while they pull out unnatural sig, banishing or any form of AoE at all? Spiritway is pretty much all or nothing. Yeah, we spank most of the noob teams. But any experienced or prepared team will wipe us pretty much 100%. I'd hardly call that overpowered.

As for monks being equal to necro's, you can't compare apple to oranges. Team roles are different. That'd be like saying monks should be nerfed since prot makes a mockery of warriors. Prot monk > warrior, so it's imbalanced, right? Roles are different. If you're saying a N/Mo is more useful than a Mo/N than maybe you can compare. But as is, it's like you're saying a N/Rt is more useful than a Mo/Rt. In which case I'd agree. Mainly cause a monks better off being a specialist, rather than crazy mixes of secondaries.

Anyway, does that answer some of your arguments? Not even mentioning the who lot of other reasons for not nerfing. I won't even touch the whole "I don't care about pve" bit.

zamial · Oct 02, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

What I was trying to say is 95% of every skill/spell in the game has a way to counter it or remove it, hence "balance". You don't think it is unfair that rit spirits can't be stopped by any means, that the weapon spells can only be removed by time, and that ashes well see the weapon spells.????? short of an interrupt?

The ugly truth: bottom line is rits are over powered not the necros. I am not proposing a nerf to a specific class but a few ways to add balance by buffing other skills.

Even shadow form can be removed.

If I where to shove you to the ground and you were holding, say a small box wouldn't you drop it to catch yourself? of course you would. This would affect ALL PLAYERS, that need to carry an item, like in missions/GvG. It would affect rits more than others but rits are way out of the realm of balance.

Skyy High · Oct 02, 2007, 06:00 AM // 06:00

He didn't say, "I don't care about pve," he said, "How would this affect PvE at all?"

And...would it? Does anyone here power their N/Rt healers with a full team of N/Rt spirit summoners? I've never seen such a build in PvE, ever. So, if it doesn't hurt PvE...why are people disagreeing in the first place?

digimonizm · Oct 02, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

I do agree that some kind of change has to be made to it, b/c SR really sucks now. It shouldn't be nerfed it should be buffed to how it was before. Alternatively, it could be made into a pve aura (the old school SR not the nerfed one) which you would equip in a skill slot and it would act like a pet, sucking up souls of recently killed creatures

Then the soul reaping att could be changed into something totally different.