Curse

Thunder Mancer · Sep 30, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

I play as a Necromancer, so you'll probably say my thoughts are biased because of that, but I will say them anyways.

You suggested that Necromancers should be within earshot of the dying foe/ally; that causes a problem right there.

I play as a (Non-"Cookie Cutter") Spiteful Spirit Necromancer. I like to get in, cast my Hexes, and move to the back. By moving to the back, I would never gain extra energy in your proposed idea. If I had to push up anymore, I would easily be a setting hen for a mob of monsters or just one boss (Especially an Elementalist boss).

By reducing the range of Soul Reaping, the Necromancer is put into a "I hope my Monk(s) can heal me so I can get this little bit of energy" type of situation. That would pressure the Monk(s) so much more, because not only do they have to watch themselves and seven others, they have to pay extra close attention to a caster because they have to be so close to just get the benefit of their primary attribute.

In Random Arenas/Team Arenas (And I'm figuring Guild vs Guild and Hero's Ascent, I've never really played them too much), you won't get that much energy from dying foes because there's only 7 members who can die who'd give you energy.

In Alliance Battle, it's different and you do have the chance to have unlimited Energy for quite some time. I do not think I get Energy from stuff dying half way across the map, so I either have to go with a Minion Master who can't hold up his Minions very well (Which, would pretty much be asking the enemies to kill me!) or go with a group to get a steady supply of Energy.

Nadia Roark · Oct 01, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I must say, I've never heard that definition. Ever. The "frontline" of a team is the part of the team that engages the enemy up close. The "midline" of a team is the part of the team engaging it by ranged attack. The "backline" of the team is the team engaged in protecting, healing and boosting the characters on the team.

I don't have much GvG experience so I can't speak to that, but check out HA again (I don't know how often you play it) and ask a team what backline they're running. Even if they do have a BiP necro (a rarity these days, but I've seen it fairly recently), they'll say "2 monks" or "3 monks" or whatever. They don't say "2 monks and a BiP;" usually because the BiP necro does other things--he doesn't just spam BiP and if he did his monks would yell at him. Just because BiP and BR support the backline does not make them a part of it.

Which brings us around nicely to my closing point regarding this necros as backline: a handful of skills do not define a class as backline, and it doesn't justify the power had from SR + protective spirits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

This is why your nonsense about the necromancer spells struck me as exactly nonsense. You're calling BiP "open-ended"? Well, it goes from one person (-HP) to another person (+E). Would you suggest any character occupied with this job to stand in the midline? How about Orders? Now I understand that this might well just be a misunderstanding caused from different usage of the terms, but still...

I called BiP and BR "open-ended" because, even though they usually are, these skills don't have to be used exclusively on the backline (whereas backline skills should be used on targets taking damage or about to take damage; otherwise they're wasted). Usually if a team has it, the players will keep it in the back of their heads and will call for a BiP (regardless of their character class) whenever they feel they need energy. In that sense it's more of a party-wide support skill rather than a strictly backline one.

But yes, we're using the terms differently and I think that's causing us to talk past each other a little bit. To me, "backline" means heal and prot; nothing else. A character can stand in the back, but if he's casting spells (even if they're sacrifice spells!) that augment the team's offense, he's not really "backlining" from a procedural standpoint. Sure, he might be standing in the back and sure, he's interested in avoiding pressure every bit as much as the monks are, but his role within the party is either offensive or mixed, which precludes him being a strictly defensive player, and that's what I think of when I think "backline."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't need to "ask someone who's backlined in HA." I've done that myself in HA and I've taken Halls a couple of times, though not to the extent that I can claim to be God of PvP as some others do, and while it's true that drawing aggro is unavoidable, it isn't sought, and if I tried to tank you'd bet I'd get yelled at for good reason.

I'm a bit sensitive about what's "backline" and what isn't because it's about all I play. I just brought up the example to illustrate that a backline (as I use the term) doesn't and often can't afford to stand in the back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The necro/rit and necro/monk healer is a specialized character. Let's take a look at what they can really do. In essence, the necro/monk gives up all the energy management inherent in the Divine Favor primary. His heals won't be as strong as a primary monk, and he's unable to use most of Divine Favor whatsoever (yes, discounting HB if he wants to put that as an elite). This he does on a calculation of the death ratio providing him with more energy. This might be correct, this might be false.

I'm going to have to stop you right there. Are you seriouisly comparing Divine Favor and SR in terms of energy management? 32 extra HP for healing is nothing compared to having infinite frigging energy (which you will almost always have as a N/Rt if your team knows what its doing) for the whole match. If you don't overheal and do a good job of watching the screen, you will never run out of energy as a N/Rt, almost regardless of what kind of pressure you're taking.

Also consider the fact that the wide majority of necro healers go N/Rt over N/Mo, and suddenly the DF/SR comparison comes down like a house of cards. Ritualist heals are balanced differently than Monk heals, owing chiefly (of course) to the aforementioned Divine Favor attribute. I don't know whether or not they're more energy efficient than monk heals, but it doesn't really matter that much when you're getting infinite energy.

There is no tremendous amount of calculation involved in determining whether DF or SR will be more energy economical for a healer: SR is wildly superior, especially when you consider that the same things that are essentially protting your team (shelter, union, displacement, et al) are also your batteries. Divine Favor is one of if not the worst primary attributes in the game; Soul Reaping is easily one of the best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

And how about the most wanted and used combo, N/Rt? The necro/rit healer is a strict healer. He has no means of hex removal whatsoever. All he can do is heal and mend conditions, plus providing the odd life-steal. He's depending on long-casting, easily-interrupted spirits to provide him with energy. Since the last SR nerf he has to make do with his own spirits alone. In essence, this change is what swept the rug under the feet of the true power of Spiritway. Now, mind you, I am not saying this is a bad build. It does excellently in many situations, but that's a far way from being imbalanced.

Most spiritwat teams run 2 N/Rts and a Rt/Me, at least from what I've seen (but I haven't played in a couple weeks). So usually they tend to do an okay job of spreading their spirits out amongst these characters so no one is caught with his proverbial pants down.

I don't think spiritwat (as a whole) is overpowered either, but the backline kinda is. It can be beaten easily enough, but that's usually due to player error rather than any glaring shortfall of the build (which is actually pretty weak) or its backline (which isn't). I won't really mind too much if they leave things the way they are, but SR from spirits has bothered me for a while now, mainly because we monks have no technique that even comes close to being as good as the prot/battery ability you get from spirits and SR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

In closing, peopleseem to be angry with spirit spamming builds, and they seem to be angry with N's performing healing duties. These people must understand one simple fact: the meta will never be fair. Ever. You nerf one thing, you create something else instead. It's impossible to avoid this. People who want a "fair" game could go play chess. Then they could complain about the queen needing a nerf because it just captured three of their pawns.

I don't want to come across like I'm bitching about the meta; if I gave you or anyone else that impression I apologize. I know people run builds that are easy and viable, and that it will always happen. But as a career backliner (hehe

) I feel a bit put out that monks have been marginalized to this degree by a class that has literally dozens of other uses in PvP. Necros have a wide variety of weapons at their disposal and are capable of many (often wildly different) forms of offense or support. They can hex spam, they can add offensive or defensive pressure, they can even deal direct damage--and now they can backline better than monks. Monks, on the other hand, have no use beyond the backline (okay, we had Dual Smite Mk. I and Mk. II before and just after Factions, but they fell off the board pretty quickly) and now all of a sudden we're playing second string at our own game to a class that, frankly, has enough other uses.

street peddler · Oct 01, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

honestly, the energy gain from spirits should just be removed...*puts on flame proof suit*

kazjun · Oct 01, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Seems like you got owned by some spirit spammers and are PO. So why not petition to nerf spirits? Why choose another classes primary which has already been nerfed to hell and back. Plenty of necro's need SR to run necro skills you know, not all necro's run spirit spam. How would you like it if all your main heals were 10-15 energy? Necro's aren't ele's you know. And we're not monks who can run full bars of 5 energy spells either.

You do realise that for SR we do have to put points into it, right? It's like a third of our attrib points or so. Not like its just free for being a necro. Running a 12-9-9 or 12-10-8 is pretty common, and using 9 points or so for energy management is fair, don't you think? What about you monks, do you spend 9 attrib levels on energy management? If you don't then what right do you have to say our energy management shouldn't be better than yours?

/not signed
I'll sign the day that divine favour only triggers on allies^50% health or when it only triggers 3 times in 15 secs. Nerf spirits if you want, but leave our SR the hell alone.

From a necro, and proud of it.

Curse You · Oct 01, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Look at this, a ranger build that can spirit spam.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/Rt_Oath_Spirit_Spam

Rangers are using Expertise to be better Spirit Spammers too! OMG, NERF THEM!

Seriously, we've already found out that you started this whole thing just because you don't like Spirit Necros (why else would you persist in telling us why they must be nerfed). It's not overpowered, it's powerful. There's a difference.

Nadia Roark · Oct 01, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Look at this, a ranger build that can spirit spam.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/Rt_Oath_Spirit_Spam

Rangers are using Expertise to be better Spirit Spammers too! OMG, NERF THEM!

Seriously, we've already found out that you started this whole thing just because you don't like Spirit Necros (why else would you persist in telling us why they must be nerfed). It's not overpowered, it's powerful. There's a difference.

Spirit spamming isn't broken. The synergy of protective spirits being energy batteries is. Managing energy with Soul Reaping is wildly more productive than managing it with channeling, GoLE or whatever else. It is certainly an order of magnitude more powerful than any other energy management technique I've ever seen or used myself. This makes it overpowered, especially considering it benefits a class that is already very useful in virtually any other capacity of PvP play.

Ranger spirit spam is nothing new; people have been Oathing spirits since before you or I knew what GW was. I'm not making the case that spirit spam itself is inherently broken. It's not the spirits or SR alone; it's the two of them in tandem.

kazjun · Oct 01, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

GoLE takes no points and can be used by anyone. Channeling can be kept up indefinately with 3 points in inspiration and can be used by anyone. You try using SR at 0 or 3, you'd get nowhere. Necro's have to sink points into SR for it to do anything, especially considering there's so few skills in SR anyway. So yes, it's a bit better than some energy management around, so what? It should be, cause it actually has a significant attrib cost. If spirit spamming is that bad for you, go petition to nerf spirits before anet decides to nerfbat SR again. And you know anet is as subtle as a norn. Just look at magmus.

Moloch Vein · Oct 01, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

To note a couple of things:

1, I've run out of energy quite a few times playing N/Rt. This is due to the fact that A: there are powerful e-denial skills in the game (which is, of course, universal). B: if my spirits get interrupted (3 seconds cast time, so you can imagine that happens quite frequently) I'm left with a black hole in my energy pocket until something else dies. C: I don't know if I got that point across, but the other N/Rt and Rt/x players' spirits give me no energy.

Now, do I get energy when and if my team mate dies? Yes, but that means I have failed.

2, N/Mo will have to put their stock into minion spells, which again requires something to die. Enemy or friend, no matter, but it's still conditional. And minion spells, also, are ranged and long cast time, which means A: If it's a foe, you have to get to the corpse and cast the spell before he's resurrected, and B: If it's a friend, either you'll have to wait for the N to cast his spell (which might be critically impossible) or simply resurrect the ally anyway and maybe lose the minion batteries. N/Mo healer can be tricky to play unless you're running a veritable corpse battery, which requires you to sacrifice most of a player's usefulness to the purpose.

I don't deny that Soul Reaping is a far more versatile primary than Divine Favor. What I do question is whether whacking down on the primary would be a good way to solve the problem. It's already been done, and to be frank, I don't think it'll be revised... A-net is too scared about the monstrous outcry from the first nerf. And, there are loads of primaries that frankly make no sense. The entire game is a house of cards.

It's kinda sad when people never petition for positive change in a situation like this. I wouldn't mind a boost to Divine Favor of some kind.

Nadia Roark · Oct 01, 2007, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

GoLE takes no points and can be used by anyone.

And it sucks for backline emanagement (in GvG or HA at least; it's fine most other places).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Channeling can be kept up indefinately with 3 points in inspiration and can be used by anyone.

Frankly, comparing SR from channeling implies you've never played one or both in the same areas I'm talking about. 8v8 Builds like these are almost always built around taking monks down-- monks moreso than any class are the obvious first targets and the builds that succed in doing so without much hassle are invariably the ones that people will play (they use monk unfriendly combinations or tactics--it's why IWAY, Spiritwat and Bloodspike have been so popular). Try recasting channeling every time it expires at 3 points, and see how it works for you. SR allows you the freedom to keep away from enemy pressure and keep moving--channeling requires you stand in or near it and keep still. Infinite energy is possible from channeling as well, but the process as a whole is usually much more risky than having a spirit + SR battery.

Still, I'm surprised that no one has gone for the obvious Achilles Heel to my argument: spirits can be used for monk emanagement too via Channeling. The only problem is that leaving them up usually benefits the other team a lot more than yours. I also can't put a rune into inspiration and it requires a slot on my skillbar to make (diminished) use of it. SR requires neither.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

You try using SR at 0 or 3, you'd get nowhere. Necro's have to sink points into SR for it to do anything, especially considering there's so few skills in SR anyway.

I know, I've been running at 0 for a while now. It kinda sucks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

So yes, it's a bit better than some energy management around, so what? It should be, cause it actually has a significant attrib cost. If spirit spamming is that bad for you, go petition to nerf spirits before anet decides to nerfbat SR again. And you know anet is as subtle as a norn. Just look at magmus.

No, it's better than all of them, at least in the chinese fire drill that we sometimes call HA. Like anything else I guess it's only really powerful under a select set of circumstances; my point is that those circumstances are easier to meet and more beneficial than any others. At least that I've seen.

But I'm getting a bit carried away. I'm not saying monks can't possibly outperform N/Rts, but it definately takes a lot more work, most of the time. I didn't really mean to compain this loudly about Spirits + SR, because I honestly haven't had too much trouble killing it (well... my teams haven't. I play monk

). SR from spirits is just something that's always kinda stuck in my craw, and from a prot + e-mangement standpoint, I can't find anything else that compares. That might be my own fault but I gotta calls 'em as I sees 'em. I don't really think they're any more likely to do anything about it now, since its been around for so long.

Honestly I think they leave it in because monk emanagement is more dependent on the player (it's why good monks are at such a premium; it takes practice to learn what and when to cast, and to not overheal, etc), whereas the necro energy battery is a more team-oriented tactic.

Curse You · Oct 01, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Before I say anything else, I want to stress the point that you're been ignoring like 3 week old bread:
Soul Reaping requires deaths. If you can't kill anything, Soul Reaping is useless.

Necromancers have a total of 4 energy management skills. Two of which are elites. As well, 2 of them require someone to die.

Spirits are not a problem since you only gain energy from your own spirits. Most N/Rt builds use spirits that cost 15-25 energy, and have 14 Soul Reaping. Even when their spirit dies, that's still a net loss of 1 energy at least. The only way to gain energy is to either wait or kill something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

Still, I'm surprised that no one has gone for the obvious Achilles Heel to my argument: spirits can be used for monk emanagement too via Channeling. The only problem is that leaving them up usually benefits the other team a lot more than yours. I also can't put a rune into inspiration and it requires a slot on my skillbar to make (diminished) use of it. SR requires neither.

More proof you have no clue what you're talking about.

[skill]Channeling[/skill]

Channeling only triggers on foes, so making a bunch of spirits would do absolutely nothing to help them.

I find it amusing how you keep saying that we've obviously never played certain forms of PvP, especially since you seem to think that Channeling is crappy.
Ever monked in HA? You tend to get swarmed by foes trying to kill you, and so channeling works perfectly.

jrk247 · Oct 01, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

So, yeah, lets remove healing from the game it's imba.

...Anet went through tons of testing with SR and came up with the best solution that they can without nerfing it to shit. SR is just as imba as any other primary. Don't like necros using it? Bring [skill]Backfire[/skill] if they are smart they won't cast with it on them and if they are stupid they will kill themselves. And BTW take a look at casting/energy costs/recharge times of almost every necro skill, you will understand (I hope) why the skills are the way they are.

gremlin · Oct 01, 2007, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Picking on the poor necro again, that's ok we will get our revenge when your character dies ahhh the power surge.

Are we reaching the point where pvp and pve have diverged so much that altering the skills for one messes up the other too much.
If you play 90% pve as I do what happens in pvp is irrelevant to me and messing up some of my skills because someone is doing something in pvp is a little ludicrous.

Why not make the local conditions in the pvp arenas variable like some of the tougher areas of pve.
That would modify any imbalances there without messing up the other game.

I have played all the main character types and find the prime attributes of each pretty good.

Some have more energy others use less or have skills that dont require any energy at all.

Mesmers are glorious because they can get free energy pretty much at will as long as there is a victim they can damage.

Necro skills on average take a little longer to cast and cost a little more energy than the average.
If I get shot down on that comment I will go check but its the impression I have from playing a necro through all the games.

The mm necro is most in need of energy because he has so much maintenance to keep his army going.
The necro may get a free energy return but the necro is also usually sacrificing health like crazy.

Nadia Roark · Oct 01, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Before I say anything else, I want to stress the point that you're been ignoring like 3 week old bread:
Soul Reaping requires deaths. If you can't kill anything, Soul Reaping is useless.

And you say I don't know what I'm talking about? Replacing spirits, or simply allowing them to die via the damage they take anyway does not require any killing. It doesn't require that you kill things, it simply requires that they die, since Spiritwat teams get them from dying pets as well (do you really think they bother healing those things?). Please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Necromancers have a total of 4 energy management skills. Two of which are elites. As well, 2 of them require someone to die.

... and they don't use any of them. Are you reading from beginning to end or are you just pasting random sentences up there? This isn't about skills being broken, and the very fact that Spirit + SR proponents leap to this apples to oranges comparison should tell anyone right away that the moldy bread is on your plate, not mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Spirits are not a problem since you only gain energy from your own spirits.

Which is irrelevant because most other teams won't, and you're no worse off either way. If they do use them said spirits typically don't grossly impede anything you're trying to do, so either way enemy spirits are already either of no conseqence, or even beneficial to you ("Hey check it out... EW is already up!").

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Most N/Rt builds use spirits that cost 15-25 energy, and have 14 Soul Reaping. Even when their spirit dies, that's still a net loss of 1 energy at least. The only way to gain energy is to either wait or kill something.

I'll take a "net loss of 1 energy at least" over varying energy returns for monks (which may or may not be possible by virtue of terrain, ease of movement, pressure etc.) under the same circumstances. Yes, you may have to wait for a spirit to die, but it's protting your entire team while you do. If they attack and take them down, they give you energy. If they wait, they give you energy. My point here is that SR + Spirit synergy is not only more easily used but also a fair amount more versatile than the competition.

Which brings us to my favorite part:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

More proof you have no clue what you're talking about.

[skill]Channeling[/skill]

Channeling only triggers on foes, so making a bunch of spirits would do absolutely nothing to help them.

I didn't mean to imply said monk would get the energy from his own spirits. Why would the phrase "You can leave them up" appear in that sentence if I was talking about my own team's (usually nonexistent) spirits? I'm obviously talking about enemy spirits, which seem to qualify as "foes" at least from a targeting perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

I find it amusing how you keep saying that we've obviously never played certain forms of PvP, especially since you seem to think that Channeling is crappy.

I don't think channeling is crappy, I just think that its use is a little more limited and dangerous. I might not have to load up as many points in inspiration as you would in SR, but I pay for it by A) not being able to rune the attribute B) Having to run an enchantment (that can obviously be stripped or interrupted--SR can't) and C) Trying to stay in a cluster of enemies.

Soul Reaping has an advantage wider than the attribute point disparity for that reason alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Ever monked in HA? You tend to get swarmed by foes trying to kill you, and so channeling works perfectly.

sigh... I held off as long as I could, and I know this isn't as "impressive" as it used to be, but I've got about 5600 fame, and all but probably 6 or 800 of it is from monking in HA. I haven't been around for everything (I started after the first GvG season and took several breaks), but I've seen a lot and I've tried a lot; most of it has failed spectacularly. I'm not saying that's always the game's fault, and I'm also not saying the Necro alone is imbalanced (so you guys can stop taking it so personally, geez

) or impossible to kill, but its powerful enough for me to be ornery about

I really, really didn't mean to get into this as deeply as I have, but I've developed certain forum habits that prevent me from dropping things like this, as I'm sure you all can see. But I'm not trying to OMG DESTROY the Necro or even SR in general, but I just think (and I don't think you're going to change my mind on this) the overall benefits to their enery management are easier to use and more powerful than anything in my arsenal as a PvP Monk. At least in 8v8. Where lots of stuff dies

getalifebud · Oct 01, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

/Notsigned

Soul reaping is all about powering up the necro when people are dying, MM's should be able to turn the favor of a close fight in PvE even if it means making use of dead allys, they need that.

Skyy High · Oct 01, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

How exactly is SR overpowered? Where? In PvE? In GvG? RA? AB? Pre-searing? How is it abused?

Heh, are you serious? Where have you been for the past few months?

Moloch Vein · Oct 01, 2007, 04:21 PM // 16:21

^ To be fair it's more like the last year or more.

There are two points I'd like to make:

1: A conditional form of e-management primary must be stronger than a non-conditional form.
2: A conditional form of e-management primary that has next to no linked skills must be even stronger.

Soul Reaping deserves to be the strongest e-management attribute in the game for these two reasons alone. Right now, discounting spirit and minion usage, it isn't.

If all energy was removed from spirits dying then Soul Reaping must see a substantial buff.

Nadia Roark · Oct 01, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

If all energy was removed from spirits dying then Soul Reaping must see a substantial buff.

... And I'm not opposed to that. Drop SR from spirits and get rid of the whole 5 second thing (which was a dumb fix to begin with). I just don't think a class with so many other viable uses should be the as powerful as it is in the backline as well. Necromancers were already more versatile than Monks to begin with. I keep pointing out that Necros have plenty of other uses that wouldn't be compromised by dropping SR from spirits, but the way some people are arguing almost makes it sound like backlining is the Necro's only viable profession.

I honestly can't understand why the defense of Spirit Reaping has been as vigorous as it has been. Dropping Spirit Reaping preserves about 95% of the necromancer's overall functionality, and (should) remove from the PvP backline a class that--in my opinion at least--shouldn't be there.

Darko_UK · Oct 01, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

The way it is at the moment in my eyes, Is perfect.

Snow Bunny · Oct 01, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

It's fine, leave it as it is.

Hyper Cutter · Oct 01, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

If all energy was removed from spirits dying then Soul Reaping must see a substantial buff.

Which would be easy: return it to its original mechanic in every way but the spirit thing...

Also lower the cost on bone fiends, they cost way too much for how damn fragile they are...