Curse

ValaOfTheFens · Oct 06, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkhell153

zealous benediction includes energy management so in my opinion if they change it, it should be in divine favor not healing prayers.

Thats a very good point. Primary attributes almost always include a self-heal and energy management.

Div · Oct 06, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

This is what all PvP'ers fail to undersatand, that GW was a failure from the start. The game failed because Anet in there crappy wisdom wanted to merge PvP and PvE together.

No it wasn't. GW was nicely balanced at the start, until they started caring about the PvErs whining more. And btw, I'm pretty sure Sab > you in PvE too. He was one of the early grandmaster cartographers that helped people with mapping (or something like that).

Tyla · Oct 06, 2007, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Who are you?(spirit bond behaves exactly like Healing Hands and Seed, which are healing; you'd understand that if you used it more often)

thats where your wrong...seed+hands effect WHEN the target gets hit,and spirit bond effects when 60 damage is taken in a second...THATS why spirit bond is protective

[skill]spirit bond[/skill]
[skill]healing hands[/skill]
[skill]healing seed[/skill]
get it now?

Sab · Oct 06, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

This is what all PvP'ers fail to undersatand, that GW was a failure from the start. The game failed because Anet in there crappy wisdom wanted to merge PvP and PvE together. Problem was that the skills were designed at a PvE level. They made them powerful to battle monsters and to add challenge to the game, however when those skills were introduced to PvP players, at first it seemed ok for the first year, since everyone was on the same playing field, but as new player base joined, the old player base started to develop an advantage.

Thus skill nerfing started to appear, and mainly for HoH, since it was the most popular style of PvP play. From then on HoH builds and teams continued to dictate how skills were nerfed or buffed, yet Anet still designed skills with PvE in mind for each new chapter. This continued until GW:EN, but by then it was to late.

Why do you think this? Examples please, right now it's all theorycrafting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

So please don't tell me I do not have enough experience at PvP and understanding skill balancing, it's ovous to me that that spazzer is a griefer. End of story

You shown that you don't understand skill balancing when you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Lastly I am tired of players wanting everything nerf because they are having a tough time countering a build, and just want to complain instead of finding a viable counter. All I can say is learn to play the game, as I said before, I will say it again, nothing and I mean nothing from it's inception has ever been overpowered, skill, spell, or otherwise. "Being Overpowered" is a term used by players who lack the aptitude to develope counters to a good team or build, and simply want a easy way out. Knowledge is power, use it to your advantage, or quit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

ZB was designed to give protection prayers some extra healing abilities besides what they get from divine favor with energy management built into it. It was designed for PvE since most team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk, the carry over to PvP was a bonus discovered by experienced players.

I can equally say ZB was designed as an alternative to Blessed Light/Boon Prot in 4v4. ZB sucks in larger arenas (and even PvE) where you have multiple Monks since you don't have full control over everybody's health. You need to reliably hit the energy bonus, and you do that best when you're the only Monk on the team, hence 4v4. But then again, I don't know for sure what the devs designed ZB for so I can't state my theories as fact, and neither can you.

Snow Bunny · Oct 06, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

It was designed for PvE since most team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk, the carry over to PvP was a bonus discovered by experienced players.

Oh my sweet RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing jesus.

Are you kidding me?

NF Pre-View weekend.
I remember so much TA and HA (and the slightest bit of GvG) where ZB was a new, fascinating, amazing pvp prot heal.

Trust me, ZB caught on from the start. If you're going to say it started in PvE because

Quote:

team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk

, then why on earth do you need more healing?

ZB is a great elite in the prot line as it is, and very much complements the TA monk's bar.

EDIT:
ZB works very well in a prot, line; there's no reason beside it being a direct heal to move it to healing prayers. Should SoR be moved to Healing as well, because it gives you regen like Healing Breeze?

Faer · Oct 06, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

This discussion is very circular. Circular discussions are not productive. Unproductive threads make Sardelac a bad place.

Be less redundant, please.

MagmaRed · Oct 06, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I see no reason to move a skill simply because it acts differently than most of the other skills in that attribute. Consider other classes, and skills that function more like a skill from s different attribute. Need examples?

[skill]Feast of Corruption[/skill]
- Life stealing, sounds like Blood Magic to me

[skill]Guilt[/skill]
- Energy stealing, sounds like Inspiration Magic to me

[skill]Shield Bash[/skill]
- Blocking, sounds like Tactics to me

[skill]Vow of Piety[/skill]
- Enchantment maintenance, sounds like Mysticism to me

[skill]Wielder's Remedy[/skill]
- Condition removal, sounds like Restoration Magic to me

[skill]Chilling Winds[/skill]
- Cold damage, and a hex, sounds like Water Magic to me

[skill]Sadist's Signet[/skill]
- Self heal, sounds like Shadow Arts to me

[skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill]
- Healing shout, sounds like Motivation to me

[skill]Viper's Nest[/skill]
- Trap, and poison, sounds like Wilderness Survival to me

There are more, I just pulled out the ones that came to me first. You could argue that Reversal of Fortune is a heal too, and should be moved. Shield of Regen provides health regen, it should be moved. The list becomes unbearably long if you try to fit EVERY skill into a 'correct' attribute. Zealous Benediction is fine, it is not over powered, and it does not need to be moved to Healing Prayers.

MithranArkanere · Oct 07, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Some skills exists to 'fill gaps' and/or balance an unused attribute.
With Zealous Benediction a monk can still heal quite some points even with only protections and divine favor.

That's why it's there.

Chris Blackstar · Oct 07, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Sab,

I agreed with you that ZB should stay with protection prays. I disagree with you that skills were designed for PvP sololy.

example is sandstorm, given it's damage qualities before it was nerfed, there was no way someone could not have forseen the problems it caused in PvP.

Second example, Paragon, almost all the skills for that character have been nerfed. The devs did plenty of testing and field testing with PvP on that character, yet only nerfed it after cries of being overpowered in HA

So to say that the skills were designed for PvP only makes the devs sound stupid, I would have to say that a lot of those skills had a PvE designed to them, and after seeing them overpower PvP, they were toned down, "Nerfed"

Oh and if you disagree, atleast tell me why, and show some proof if you feel I am wrong.

Antheus · Oct 07, 2007, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

So to say that the skills were designed for PvP only makes the devs sound stupid, I would have to say that a lot of those skills had a PvE designed to them, and after seeing them overpower PvP, they were toned down, "Nerfed"

Paragon skills obliterated PvE as well. While they still affected NPCs and minions, along with all the shout spam, paragons simply wiped the floor with anything there was.

But due to their slow uptake in PvE, few noticed it until the skills got changed enough. Even today, in PvE, multiple paragons are quite "imbalanced".

This is also where perception comes into play. While at some absolute level some things may be perfectly well balanced, the temporary popularity of some skill/build/class skews perception.

And then, rather than adapt, most wait for something to get nerfed. Ultimately, it's a game.

moriz · Oct 08, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

just to clarify one minor point: GW has always been pvp first. every skill (with exception to those retarded pve-only skills) was designed for pvp use. whatever a skill does in pve is merely an extra bonus. in fact, GW would've been a much better game had there been no pve at all.

the original prophecies campaign was originally intended as a huge (and extremely well designed and rendered) tutorial to prime a player for pvp play. everything happening before the ascension missions teaches basic game mechanics and basic teamplay. the ascension missions with the 15 attribute quests round out the basic character creation process as well as teaching some basic pvp gametypes. everything happening after the ascension missions were really an elaborate excuse to cap elite skills. anet was just kind enough to add in a storyline to make that process less boring.

Darkobra · Oct 08, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

just to clarify one minor point: GW has always been pvp first. every skill (with exception to those retarded pve-only skills) was designed for pvp use. whatever a skill does in pve is merely an extra bonus. in fact, GW would've been a much better game had there been no pve at all.

the original prophecies campaign was originally intended as a huge (and extremely well designed and rendered) tutorial to prime a player for pvp play. everything happening before the ascension missions teaches basic game mechanics and basic teamplay. the ascension missions with the 15 attribute quests round out the basic character creation process as well as teaching some basic pvp gametypes. everything happening after the ascension missions were really an elaborate excuse to cap elite skills. anet was just kind enough to add in a storyline to make that process less boring.

Nice opinion. Shame it's got as many holes as a sieve.

Sab · Oct 08, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Sab,

I agreed with you that ZB should stay with protection prays. I disagree with you that skills were designed for PvP sololy.

example is sandstorm, given it's damage qualities before it was nerfed, there was no way someone could not have forseen the problems it caused in PvP.

Second example, Paragon, almost all the skills for that character have been nerfed. The devs did plenty of testing and field testing with PvP on that character, yet only nerfed it after cries of being overpowered in HA

So to say that the skills were designed for PvP only makes the devs sound stupid, I would have to say that a lot of those skills had a PvE designed to them, and after seeing them overpower PvP, they were toned down, "Nerfed"

Oh and if you disagree, atleast tell me why, and show some proof if you feel I am wrong.

The devs do not and cannot foresee every possible skill combo. It's easy to say in hindsight that skill X should've been nerfed from the start, but the devs do not have the minds of thousands of players who can recognise overpowered skills. It doesn't help that the devs are bad at skill balancing in general, either.

But I never said all skills were designed for PvP. There are plenty of skills that I'd imagine were designed for PvP, such as Avatar of Grenth, Gale and Holy Veil, since they offer utility that just isn't needed in PvE. On the other hand, skills like Dolyak Signet are probably made for PvE. As I said in my previous post, neither you nor I can say for certain, so I don't know why you're stating your theories as fact.

Winterclaw · Oct 08, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

What I don't get is why does every skill line have to follow some idea precicely. I mean look at water magic... a third of the skills in there you could argue belong to another class. In fact as a non-nuke oriently line you might even argue that it'd be better off moving the entire line into another class. Or look at warriors. Riposte and Deadly riposte both require swords, but they are in tactics. Or you can look at the hammer skills that are in the strength line. Or look at rits and how the spirit that rezzes your party is in communing.

Did it ever occur to the people who want to move ZB that maybe the devs put some skills where they are in order to spice things up? If I were a protect monk who really wanted to heal people, I could bring:

[skill]Air of Enchantment[/skill][skill]Dismiss condition[/skill] and be able to both heal and remove conditions pretty cheaply. Maybe spam RoF on the guy as a cover.

I think the key point of the non-move ZB people is this: protect monks can heal too and have found ways to ever since boon protect.

glountz · Oct 08, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Buff Healing Hands to a 8 secs recharge so healing will have its nice prot elite skill like Prot have ZB its nice elite healing skill.
And add some direct cond removal in healing too.

Mithie · Oct 08, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Who cares? Honestly, who cares? Move ZB to the healing line, whatever. I'll just spec a little more into healing than prot and replace gift on my bar with a second small prot or D Kiss.

Whatever.

HolyHawk · Oct 08, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I think ZB doesn't really fit in the concept of protection prayers, but leaving it there keeps a lot of bars versatile. If anything should be changed it would be probably the healing prayers line, such as WoH going target ally and not target other ally, and healing light being almost free, since it is a very weak heal. What makes ZB "powerful" is that it allows mitigation + direct (huge) healing in the same bar with a great stat otimization; you can't get that with healing prayers, and that's why I think the approach should focus that line.

KazeMitsui · Oct 08, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

imo OP uses healing prayers in RA/Ta and cant figure out why he loses with healing breeze, orison, and ressurect on his bar...

thus he needs zb in hp

imo l2monk or something for 4v4

Skyy High · Oct 08, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

Nice opinion. Shame it's got as many holes as a sieve.

Which part do you disagree with? The, "Prophecies was designed to funnel people into PvP," thing? Have you looked at the Ascension missions, they all mirror various maps in HA, and they all came directly before you got to HoH (before it was moved, obviously). Clearly, the devs made it that way to prep players for the movement to PvP. And if that weren't enough, go back and read the interviews and previews at the time; they specifically said that they thought PvP would be the endgame for Prophecies. That's why there was no true endgame content for a long time, they thought people would just PvP. Turns out they were mistaken, but that doesn't change their intentions. Remember the whole, "It's not an MMORPG, it's a CORPG," marketing thing?

Saphatorael · Oct 08, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Buff Healing Hands to a 8 secs recharge so healing will have its nice prot elite skill like Prot have ZB its nice elite healing skill.

Wha?

IMO, Healing Prayers needs some improvements, à la Light of Deliverance.
With GW:EN, they gave us Healing Ribbon, which would be an excellent example of how I'd like to see the entire Healing line reworked.
LoD is mainly being used to relieve pressure on the team, something comparable to most Protection skills, so why not expand on the idea?

Well, basically I'd like to see Healing Prayers work more with AoE effects.

Word of Healing could have a 'Nearby' AoE bonus heal if the condition is met. Healing Light gives back Energy and heals allies adjacent if he/she is enchanted. Healing Burst... well, still need to work a bit more on that one, maybe it should remove a condition and/or hex if only 1 ally is affected.
Healing Hands could be Adjacent too (so it'd basically be a real elite version of Healing Seed), etc. etc.

It either needs some more versatility, or just more efficiency without becoming too much like Protection Prayers. But it shouldn't remain what it is right now: underpowered.