Curse

lutz · Oct 05, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

ZB is so bad, it's not even funny. The only time it's remotely good is when you're the only monk, such as in TA.

You said "don't even cite RA in these", but I'm getting to think you only play RA. Who in their right minds would run a ZB in HA/GvG? Occassionally you see the third monk as ZB (probably a flag runner or split) but that's pretty much about it.

moriz · Oct 05, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Yes. Why is it assumed that I shouldn't agree with this?

you've just lost any chance of anyone agreeing with what you say. congrats.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by traiur

This is not a healthy way to discuss any topic as its entirely one sided. It would be exactly the same as talking to a brick wall except that the brick wall talks at you.

I could argue with a rock, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong, or that the game would not improve if my suggestion was taken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you've just lost any chance of anyone agreeing with what you say. congrats.

Why? This was something that came up ages ago when Spirit Bond was introduced to the game. Spirit Bond does not deminish damage taken. Spirit Bond only heals. Its effect mirrors Healing Hands.

Winterclaw · Oct 05, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Spirit bond meshes too well with protective spirit to break those two up. Plus it only heals if you take a lot of damage to begin with and a heal monk shouldn't be fooling around with what-ifs like that. However you can cast it on someone you think might get spike which means it is pre-prot and belongs in protection.

traiur · Oct 05, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

I could argue with a rock, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong, or that the game would not improve if my suggestion was taken.

And all you serve to do by saying this is to further prove my point.
And actually yes, if you aren't willing to have a actual discussion then there is no way for us to prove to you that you are wrong, ever, even if you are indeed horribly and utterly wrong (I personally don't care where ZB is as I GvG and its not useful to me).

What I'm stating is that until you let go of any sort of bias you might have and actually sit there and think about what each person has said, there is no point in even responding to them as all it serves to do is show that you really don't want to discuss. You just want to cram an idea down an unwilling throat.

I'm not saying you are wrong. As I've stated, I don't care. Just you are not acting logically and you are trying to argue using logic. Sorry but non logical actions do not beget logical thoughts or outcomes. (thats logic)

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Spirit bond meshes too well with protective spirit to break those two up. Plus it only heals if you take a lot of damage to begin with and a heal monk shouldn't be fooling around with what-ifs like that. However you can cast it on someone you think might get spike which means it is pre-prot and belongs in protection.

Would you say that Zealous Benediction is pre-prot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by traiur

And all you serve to do by saying this is to further prove my point.

And I wasn't arguing with it. I have a very steady opinion on this issue, or I wouldn't have created the thread. You are wrong to think that a proper discussion can't take place if there's bias, however. That is where all debates start.

ValaOfTheFens · Oct 05, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Spazzer, is your real issue with the fact that ZB steps out of Prot's "purview" or that its powerful?

From a PvE perspective, ZB is pretty good when wielded by an actual person. I've had somewhat mixed results with monk heroes. Its not remarkably useful in PvE, as it is outclassed by LoD, WoH, and Healer's Boon, but it can get a Prot monk into a party(although parties that require every monk to have a heal probably sucks).

From a PvP perspective, its an absolute house(please excuse my Magic terminology). More healing than WoH(though more expensive), respectable recharge, and possible energy gain. Even knowing all that I can't see it in HP. The energy gain is conditional and is only a factor when you're doing a bad job at preventing or reducing damage. I find ZB to very consistent with the overall concept of Prot. It gets your health back to a level thats easily managed by Prot spells and costs more than your average HP spells because of it.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

From a PvP perspective, its an absolute house(please excuse my Magic terminology).

A what?

Quote:

The energy gain is conditional and is only a factor when you're doing a bad job at preventing or reducing damage.

Would you say that Healing Light can be described the same way?

ValaOfTheFens · Oct 05, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Would you say that Healing Light can be described the same way?

No. Because I'm looking at it from the perspective of Prot rather than Heal.

Micromaster · Oct 05, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Spazzer, we should add all monk skills to healing since they make red bars go up. Don't forget about the divine favor bonus.

All I can do is laugh...

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValaOfTheFens

No. Because I'm looking at it from the perspective of Prot rather than Heal.

You stated that Zealous Benediction belongs in Protection Prayers because it gives conditional energy back and because it heals if the target is dying. Healing Light meets this criteria and is already in Healing Prayers. Looking at it from the perspective of Prot rather than Heal, what is the difference between these two skills that you would say makes Zealous Benediction meet the "overall concept of Prot"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micromaster

Spazzer, we should add all monk skills to healing since they make red bars go up. Don't forget about the divine favor bonus.

I know it's easy to forget, but Divine Favor's passive effect only benefits primary Monks.

Sab · Oct 05, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

It's both. What I'm lolling over is that I'm seeing a lot of "Gasp, you'll break the meta!". You would think I'm suggeting another nerf to Soul Reaping for the universal reaction of shock and condemnation, which makes me believe even more firmly that I am correct.

I do not believe Protection Prayers needs an unconditional heal. I don't think anyone here has convinced me that it deserves one other than the "but we've had one for a whole year" arguement. I believe monk is still viable in 4v4 without ZB in Prot. I don't believe that putting ZB in healing prayers will kill the usefulness of the skill itself.

I can't seem to grasp your argument. From my experience, ZB is currently fine in 4v4, balanced builds depend on this skill and it is neither too strong nor too weak. The only point I can gather from your posts is that it "should" be in Healing Prayers because it heals, with no reference to actual balance. Setting continuity aside, how is weakening ZB a positive change for 4v4?

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk, Sab. Moving ZB does not weaken ZB itself. It would weaken the Prot line mildly.

lutz · Oct 05, 2007, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk, Sab. Moving ZB does not weaken ZB itself. It would weaken the Prot line mildly.

And... you would get your healing from...?

Rits = Ritspike, and is still crap due to the fact that it has no prot.
/Mos = whatever the primary is
Paragons = Zergway
Anything else = /resign

The entire point of Zealous Benediction is that it breaks the rules, and by doing that we are satisfied. Ever played "Magic: the Gathering"? How far would the game be now if they only stuck directly to the rules, directly to the themes of each color? Not very far, apparently.
Rules need to be broken, and games get fun when they do.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

lutz, we're talking about 4v4.

lutz · Oct 05, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

lutz, we're talking about 4v4.

Nobody (worth mentioning) plays 4v4 seriously. Good PvPers only play TA when they're bored.

Spazzer · Oct 05, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Nobody (worth mentioning) plays 4v4 seriously. Good PvPers only play TA when they're bored.

I respect Sab and take his opinion serioiusly.

thor hammerbane · Oct 05, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Uhm..No.
Keep ZB where it is, it is a good elite for 1 monk teams that need prot and heal.

ValaOfTheFens · Oct 05, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

You stated that Zealous Benediction belongs in Protection Prayers because it gives conditional energy back and because it heals if the target is dying. Healing Light meets this criteria and is already in Healing Prayers. Looking at it from the perspective of Prot rather than Heal, what is the difference between these two skills that you would say makes Zealous Benediction meet the "overall concept of Prot"?

The essence of Prot is to prevent damage from happening. A benediction is a kind of blessing and of course prayers are a request for a blessing. The Zealous part is tied to the GW concept of energy gain. In my view, ZB is a Prot monks desperate plea for aid that is outside his/her normal purview, at the cost of more energy. Perhaps Dwayna will be moved by the prayer's zeal...or perhaps not. Who can understand the whim of gods?

With Healing Light already in existence was there really a need to put ZB in HP?

Its clear that ANet was just wanted a mirror for WoH. I've always been confused as to why it doesn't say "target other ally". That one blib is more worrisome than the fact there's a decent heal outside HP.

Melody Cross · Oct 05, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

You still haven't answered my question of page 2 Spazzer...what game type would you be using ZB in if this change where implemented?

I'm leaning toward Sab on this one. It seems that the only reason the OP has for putting ZB into healing Prayers is because it heals. That and his misinformed belief that ZB is imba.

Moving ZB to prot will only force players to use a substandard elite in 4v4. They would have to take Glimmer for a self heal, or BLight, or something else. It would kill a solid build to promote unstable ones, force more off-monk protting to compensate in 4v4.

In PvE it would become a dead horse. Hybrid prot Dual LoD, Lod/BLight, or bual BLight builds are all any team needs to beat areas beyond elites (and those tend to need a gimmick build mechanic).

You're alone on that limb Spazzer. You thought it was a good idea a year ago and people disagreed. After a year of play, most appear to like ZB just fine where it is...and what it does because of where it is.

/voteforclose