Curse

freekedoutfish · Sep 24, 2007, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Not in those precise words, no. But I distinctly remember that you were among the people saying that those people who didn't like having to grind the titles for armour were just too slack to work for their reward.

It's something I consider more of a grey area than the topic of this particular discussion, since a) it's vanity, and b) it can be seen as a variation of the shard/ecto collection for obsidian (although FoW and UW have quests that you can do while you're collecting those materials as well as the option to buy them outright if you get the funds from other sources, which is less so with reputation grind) but I certainly remember comments along the general lines of "It's not that much, if you really thought it was important you'd do the work" in your posts.

Incidentally, on grinding quests, missions and dungeons: If you do it once per character in order to complete the storyline (whether the big storyline or just the sideplot featured in that quest or dungeon) it isn't grind except in the very loosest definition of the term - it's storyline completion. It's when you do the same thing with the same character over and over again that it becomes grind. (As an aside, this is actually one of the things I don't like about things like the Norn blessing skills, the junundu, and the siege devourer - they blur out the difference between characters and make it feel more like a genuine grind as you put multiple characters through.)

So are you saying that achieving rank 5 (on all races) for armor, isnt hard work. That it is achieveable by simply playing the game atleast once with each character! Doing all quests and dungeons and bounty as you explore?

If your saying that, then we agree!

If that is what your saying, then unlocking armor in GWEN cannot be concidered grind because its achieved by simply doing the game once!

Grind is something that you do outside of the storyline, and requires time away from the normal flaw of the game!

I accept going above rank 5 is grind by that definition. Which is when it comes into this debate about making the status effects gamewide.

How ever because those status effects and the GWEN pve only skills are not critical to any aspect of the game. Their not required to complete any quests, dungeons, missions or elite zones. Then they are optional!

That does then lead to the conclusion that if a person is complaining about grinding past rank 5 reputation, they are either...

1) Lazey!
2) See some importance to these ranks that doesnt exist!
3) Are being pressured into increasing rank by another player or group of players.
4) Are simply wanting them to get KOABD and similar ranks!

...so again they are optional! Just as most grind in this game is! People only complain about certain grinds because they either want the end result now and dont want to work for it, or they place some importance on it.

Usually importance that either doesnt exist, or doesnt have any critical baring on the game. But they feel its that important to kick a fuss up. All because they want a maxed out pve only skill or maxed out status effect that isnt critical or important at all.

We have more then enough skills ingame that can do similar stuff to the pve only skills, but their just a little weeker! But people want the oober versions and complain about it.

But this debate is about the status effects being game wide, and im trying to say that 100+health or +15energy isnt going to make the game that much easier.

I've had countless times ive used blessigns that gave me +health, +armor and other effects and ive not noticed any staggering improvement. It makes a difference if your on -#dp and need the boost.

But if your full health anyway, you dont notice!

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But amazingly, you start complaining about grind when it doesnt suit you and what you want!

Grind is fine as long as you don't get any benefit from it. You get a benefit from grinding in GW:EN - That's the problem. Not that the grind exists, but that you can actually be stronger - no matter how much - than someone else simply by C+Spacing in an area.

draxynnic · Sep 24, 2007, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So are you saying that achieving rank 5 (on all races) for armor, isnt hard work. That it is achieveable by simply playing the game atleast once with each character! Doing all quests and dungeons and bounty as you explore?

If your saying that, then we agree!

Then we don't.

Because I didn't say that. Because it darn well isn't... from my experience, even for the Asura without some area-clearing grind to boot. I was just saying that there is a better argument for the armour grind due to precedents - but even then, the armour grind is bad due to the lack of alternative means to get it that don't involve grinding.

It's certainly not as bad as grinding higher for title benefits as doing all the quests gets you close, so it can probably be fixed by adding new quests rather than removing the requirement. Which, in that particular discussion, was what I was asking for all along.

Quote:

If that is what your saying, then unlocking armor in GWEN cannot be concidered grind because its achieved by simply doing the game once!

Grind is something that you do outside of the storyline, and requires time away from the normal flaw of the game!

Exactly.

Quote:

I accept going above rank 5 is grind by that definition. Which is when it comes into this debate about making the status effects gamewide.

I dispute the cut-off point, but certainly rank 4 appears to be doable.

Quote:

How ever because those status effects and the GWEN pve only skills are not critical to any aspect of the game. Their not required to complete any quests, dungeons, missions or elite zones. Then they are optional!

That does then lead to the conclusion that if a person is complaining about grinding past rank 5 reputation, they are either...

1) Lazey!
2) See some importance to these ranks that doesnt exist!
3) Are being pressured into increasing rank by another player or group of players.
4) Are simply wanting them to get KOABD and similar ranks!

...so again they are optional! Just as most grind in this game is! People only complain about certain grinds because they either want the end result now and dont want to work for it, or they place some importance on it.

And there we go. You ARE saying people who don't like the grind are lazy and want an immediate handout. A term which is usually applied to people who aren't doing enough work - I play the game to have fun, not to do work.

Quote:

Usually importance that either doesnt exist, or doesnt have any critical baring on the game. But they feel its that important to kick a fuss up. All because they want a maxed out pve only skill or maxed out status effect that isnt critical or important at all.

We have more then enough skills ingame that can do similar stuff to the pve only skills, but their just a little weeker! But people want the oober versions and complain about it.

But this debate is about the status effects being game wide, and im trying to say that 100+health or +15energy isnt going to make the game that much easier.

I've had countless times ive used blessigns that gave me +health, +armor and other effects and ive not noticed any staggering improvement. It makes a difference if your on -#dp and need the boost.

But if your full health anyway, you dont notice!

And if you're on full health, you don't notice having 100 less hit points for only being level 15 either.

If hit points don't make that much difference, can we presume that you'd be happy to walk around as an Elementalist with a superior (non-Vigor) rune in each slot, without using Protective Spirit? After all, if you're at full health anyway, you're not going to notice the downside that you're only sitting at 105 hit points, are you?

That's a strawman argument, and deliberately so, but it illustrates the general point. Your fallacy is that you're only looking at the situation where a resource isn't being used. If you're not getting hurt at all, or if you're regenerating health before you can take further damage, it really doesn't matter what your hit points are. That's the whole point behind builds such as the 55 monk. In short, you're right: It doesn't matter how much of a particular resource you have if you're not using that resource, and if you're not getting hurt, you're not using your hit points.

In a close battle, though, when you're repeatedly being knocked down to double-digit hit points before being healed back from the brink... well, then you definitely notice an extra few hit points. In that case, an extra 100 hit points may well be the difference between continuing swinging and taking a dirt nap.

A similar argument can be made for energy. It doesn't matter how deep your energy well is when you're just skimming off the top. When you're plunging right down into the bottom of that proverbial well, however, when you're squeezing every single point for everything it can give while the enemy is hitting you repeatedly with energy denial skills, then you'd better bet that the depth of the well matters!

It's not when your totals are high that it matters. If your totals are staying high, you're probably pretty comfortably winning anyway (or, in the case of Energy, being limited by recharge rather than Energy). It's when your totals are low, when that perfect Fortitude mod is the difference between getting healed from being on 15 hit points and taking a dirt nap, that it matters.

To finish, I'd like to repeat a question I asked earlier. If it really makes such a little difference as you are trying to claim, why do you even care? From my viewpoint, it looks like my side is arguing for something that we believe matters, while you're arguing for something that you think doesn't matter at all! If that's the case, why do you even bother?

---------ADDENDUM---------

After some thought, I think this pretty much summarises what I'm really afraid of happening. I don't think anyone has seriously suggested proceeding to Step 2, but I would bet triple digits in American dollars that someone, if not necassarily anyone who has posted to this thread, would demand going to Step 2 if Step 1 is implemented. And so on, until the point where it becomes obvious to all that what these titles are is basically a backdoor method of levelling beyond level 20.

They even said it: "Character development beyond level 20." Should have rang alarm bells back then. Personally, I think I'd prefer an honest level grind; experience doesn't care what you do to get it as long as you do something, it doesn't require you to play in a specific manner to collect, instead you can just do whatever it is you enjoy doing and advance that way.

A cynic might even come to the conclusion that that's the whole point - that after putting up with title grind, a return to conventional level grind will come as a relief by the time Guild Wars 2 comes out.

Crom The Pale · Sep 24, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But this debate is about the status effects being game wide, and im trying to say that 100+health or +15energy isnt going to make the game that much easier.

I've had countless times ive used blessigns that gave me +health, +armor and other effects and ive not noticed any staggering improvement. It makes a difference if your on -#dp and need the boost.

But if your full health anyway, you dont notice!

If you would not notice it, they why ask for it to be spread beyond its current limits?

It was a bonus given to us when we play in these limited areas. It was meant as an incentive to those that do not want/need or care for the armor/weapons to raise our ranks in these titles. As the benifit was limited to the zones, so was the length of time we would be in those same zones completing the storyline and extra quests. Those that wish to repeat the repeatable quests can still level up the title and gain some benifit from it, those that do not can move on.

As for linking the pve skill to the titles, that is a totaly diffent topic than this thread is trying to address.

freekedoutfish · Sep 24, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

And there we go. You ARE saying people who don't like the grind are lazy and want an immediate handout. A term which is usually applied to people who aren't doing enough work - I play the game to have fun, not to do work.

Then play the game to have fun! I know I do!! Thats my point! No one is forcing you to grind these titles past rank 5. And rank 5 is easy to reach on all races just by doing the quest and dungeons. Id be worried if you werent rank 4 or close after doing most of them!

I had rank 5 on all within 2 weeks, and 95% from the quests and dungeons and bounties!

You then choos to above rank 5, which requires earning points outside of the storyline. Which I admit does require mind-numbing farming! I know because im on rank 8 Drawf and Norn and it isnt fun.

But thats because I chose to increase them past rank 5! It may make kiling destroyers easier and give me a slight health boost, but it doesnt mean im better then anyone or got a huge advantage.

It was just a choice. I dont even use the status effects or pve only skills that much, if at all!

You can play this game how ever you like. But if you choose to grind, its your choice. No one forces you to do stuff beyond what you can achieve by just playing the game.

TabascoSauce · Sep 24, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Tabasco if you cant endorse grind in any form, then why are you playing an MMO/RPG? Why are you playing GWs which has contained grind from the very start.

You obviously dont mind grind while farming.
You obviously dont mind grinding for greens.
You obviously dont mind grinding missions, quests and dungeons.
You obviously dont mind grinding to max easier titles.

But amazingly, you start complaining about grind when it doesnt suit you and what you want!

Funny enough................

I do not farm.
I do not farm for greens.
I do not re-play missions/quests/dungeons unless I am helping someone else.
I do not max titles.
I do not, sam I am.

I play the game.

You totally misunderstand me.

I have enough friends that I play the game as and when I want, and I do not run out of things to do.

I have not completed every campaign with every character yet, either.

No my friend, it is you who have run out of things to do and not beg for ANet to give you the grind again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Mordakai · Sep 24, 2007, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

In a close battle, though, when you're repeatedly being knocked down to double-digit hit points before being healed back from the brink... well, then you definitely notice an extra few hit points. In that case, an extra 100 hit points may well be the difference between continuing swinging and taking a dirt nap.

So, then, for the sake of argument I assume you think we all should get free Sup Vigor Runes?

After all, those with money to burn and/ or time to farm will have these and be at an advantage over those that don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

A cynic might even come to the conclusion that that's the whole point - that after putting up with title grind, a return to conventional level grind will come as a relief by the time Guild Wars 2 comes out.

I'm such a cynic. There's no doubt in my mind this is exactly what Anet wants. I realized this when the Kurzick / Luxon skills were introduced...

I'm not in favor of Grind = better skills / abilities. But that cat is already out of the bag. If Anet is going to make characters better the more they grind, then why not go all the way and allow those that choose to grind GWEN titles carry those benefits across continents? After all, we're complaining about +100 health, but that's nothing compared to plus +100 armor, is it? http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves%21%22

And if Vanguard title already carries beyond GWEN, then why not Norn or Asura?

Yichi · Sep 24, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

And if Vanguard title already carries beyond GWEN, then why not Norn or Asura?

And in all honesty, this title shouldn't even work outside of Eye of the North.

Mordakai · Sep 24, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

And in all honesty, this title shouldn't even work outside of Eye of the North.

Right, but do people complain that it does?

What's wrong with giving people +100 health or more energy?

Like I said, unless all the people arguing against this want to hand out free Sup Vigor runes, I really don't see where you stand.

Yichi · Sep 24, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Right, but do people complain that it does?

What's wrong with giving people +100 health or more energy?

Like I said, unless all the people arguing against this want to hand out free Sup Vigor runes, I really don't see where you stand.

My stance on this has remained the same throughout the entire discussion. That is that they were created and made to effect one small area of the game where those bonuses are effected. The destroyers, or Norn, or Asura are not available in any other campaign or anywhere else other than EotN, so fundamentally what purpose do they have outside of these areas? The only one where you see even the most remote inkling of anything outside of EotN, is the Vanguard title track, which as you and I agree, shouldn't even work outside of EotN.

And no you don't need to hand out sup vigor runes to everyone. The game progressed just fine in the 2 years before these titles were introduced. If we go by your logic, than they should have handed them out at the beginning when you create a new character.

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I'm not in favor of Grind = better skills / abilities. But that cat is already out of the bag. If Anet is going to make characters better the more they grind, then why not go all the way and allow those that choose to grind GWEN titles carry those benefits across continents? After all, we're complaining about +100 health, but that's nothing compared to plus +100 armor, is it? http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/%22Save_Yourselves%21%22

And if Vanguard title already carries beyond GWEN, then why not Norn or Asura?

Crom has already firmly hit the nail on the head (once again, I'll add. He's damn good). It'll cause less incentive to continue grinding for the other titles. You could just level up your Norn title and boo-bam. Why grind for the others when you already have +100 health?

freekedoutfish · Sep 24, 2007, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Funny enough................

I do not farm.
I do not farm for greens.
I do not re-play missions/quests/dungeons unless I am helping someone else.
I do not max titles.
I do not, sam I am.

I play the game.

You totally misunderstand me.

....

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

In all seriousness I am happy for you. Im glad you dont do those things, because alot of those I dont enjoy either!

But that begs the question, which ive asked before. What is the huge priority on increasing these ranks in GWEN?

Ive said before that the status effects arent critical to the game, and the pve only skills arent critical to the game. You only need rank 5 for armor and alike!

I cant graps why yourself and others are putting so much importance on them, like having your pve only skills maxed out will make you all gods or something!

I realise its hypercritcal to say that, because im asking for the status effects to go game wide. But im not asking for that to give huge advantages or because its critical.

Im asksing for it, as just a choice if we want to use them.

But if your not a hardcore player, and you dont do all that farming rubbish, then why do you need these titles maxed?

Yichi · Sep 24, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But that begs the question, which ive asked before. What is the huge priority on increasing these ranks in GWEN?

People are increasing ranks in these because they arent that relatively hard to get a vast amount of points in and will provide 4 title tracks in a KOABD title track, as well as providing the maximum efficiency in the skills and title bonus effects.

TabascoSauce · Sep 24, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But if your not a hardcore player, and you dont do all that farming rubbish, then why do you need these titles maxed?

Um, I am not going to max the titles.

I like GW implementing "grind for vanities".
I object to GW implementing "grind for in-game power and rewards".

I am torn, honestly. I'd like to have the 53 HP everywhere I go, of course. But I also know that grind for in-game benefit is bad, and is completely against what GW was founded on - I can go cut and paste the quote from guildwars.com, but you have read it before. Go read the whole page description of Prophecies at guildwars.com, really. I'll wait.

See? I waited. ( skill > time spent ) =/= grind

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

trobinson97 · Sep 25, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Question to the general public here:

If it were only applied in Hard Mode, would that make it more acceptable?

Mac Sidewinder · Sep 25, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Question to the general public here:

If it were only applied in Hard Mode, would that make it more acceptable?

I can see both sides of this argument. While I would like the extra advantage of both health and power I don't like the idea that simply because I do something over and over that I have an extra advantage over someone else that doesn't like doing that.

The main reason I bought GW was it wasn't based on how high I achieved in certain areas to be equal with anyone else. Most MMOs require you to have the best weapons, armor, spells, attributes, etc all of which take a long time to achieve (time spent). GW basically gives you all that when you reach level 20. No matter how much extra you do you won't get any better in those areas. Everything else is vanity and doesn't effect anything else.

That all seems to be changing now. It looks like GW2 is heading down the road that time spent will be greater than skill, and thats really sad. I can have that in 20 other different MMOs right now.

I have to agree with the /not signed crowd on this one and I actually think it should go a step futher that ALL skills or other benefits from specific title tracks should be removed. None of the core, campaign, or elite skills are tied to how high you have a certain title. The skills tied to Lightbringer, Sunspear, Luxon, Kurzak, Asura, Dwarf, and Vanguard should be set to one level of effect, obtainable from xp earned by normal quest and mission completion, and usable only in the areas they were originally obtained from. That would make them equal for all in those areas and no matter how many times you repeat those areas you don't get any stonger from that.

And to finally answer the above quote, no I don't think it really makes a difference if you limit it to hard mode only or not. I think its wrong either way.

And as a final note, Fish if you really don't believe that they would matter that much then why are you arguing so hard about them? Just an observation.

Sparks Dawnbringer · Sep 25, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

/signed And of note the Ebon Battle Standard of Courage is of great help vanquishing the Charr areas.

fireflyry · Sep 25, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

Question to the general public here:

If it were only applied in Hard Mode, would that make it more acceptable?

Thats a catch 22.

This is Hard Mode....but we also give you +100 health and +15 energy.

Would'nt that make it medium mode?

freekedoutfish · Sep 25, 2007, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Thats a catch 22.

This is Hard Mode....but we also give you +100 health and +15 energy.

Would'nt that make it medium mode?

Thats what GWEN is and will be anyway!

We already have hard-mode level creatures in GWEN and we can already equip the +100 health or +15 energy in GWEN.

So does that make GWEN hard mode or normal mode? Does the extra health and energy in some areas of GWEN counter-act the higher level creatures and remove the difficulty?

I personally dont think it makes a difference and you always have the choice to not use the extra health and energy to make it harder!

But what about when HM is added into GWEN! Will the extra health and energ become a priority because GWEN will suddenly become oober hard?

Who knows!

I cant see HM in GWEN being any harder, because they have already improved the AI in GWEN and given us lvl22-28 creatures!

I find it hard to understand how HM will work in GWEN, other then giving bounties past lvl8.

But your right to argue that the extra health and energy counter-acts the harder creatures, but again its choice to use that advantage.

If you want a harder game, done use them. If you want an easier game, then do! Its all about playing how you want to, and thats why I dont see an issue with having the status effects game wide.

How you choose to play has no baring on someone next to you in PvE! Even in a pug it just means the monks might not need to heal you as often. But it doesnt mean the rest of the team is disadvantaged in anyway.

trobinson97 · Sep 25, 2007, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Thats a catch 22.

This is Hard Mode....but we also give you +100 health and +15 energy.

Would'nt that make it medium mode?

Well, it wouldn't give you +100 and +15, just one or the other depending on which title you have selected. Also of course, the plus 100 and plus 15 aren't automatic as they both require max ranks in those titles. It would still be Hard Mode, you just have a buffer that allows you to die a couple of seconds later and able to cast a couple of more spells before hitting 0 energy. At best it would be like having half a birthday cupcake, either you get the plus energy or you use the extra health.