Curse

fireflyry · Sep 23, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Wow...personal insults...way to prove yourself and your argument there bud.

Resorting to an insult speaks volumes.

Cheers.

hallomik · Sep 23, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

The notion that skill > time in PVE really went out the window when Anet introduced multiple chapters and especially heroes.

I have one PVE character of each profession. I've advanced each character to the point that they have access to all skills in all campaigns (not including EotN). Consequently, I can make nearly any hero build. You think the extremely skilled guy who owns just Prophesies or just Factions can progress through the game as efficiently as I can? Highly doubtful.

Could the uber-skilled guy beat me in PVP? Of course he could - even without acess to all skills. PVP is still balanced - as it should be. If Freek were arguing the Norn & Asura benefits should occur in PVP, I'd say he was nuts. I don't know if I agree with him, but allowing these benefits in PVE is far from crazy.

I'm not arguing for or against this particular proposal, but the PVE skill > time genie left the bottle a long time ago.

Bryant Again · Sep 23, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

I'm not arguing for or against this particular proposal, but the PVE skill > time genie left the bottle a long time ago.

The game's more Number of Campaigns Owned > Skill. It's like that so as to create incentive to buy their games.

Aside from that, I'd think ANet would try to keep players in PvE as balanced as possible, regardless of how things are these days - kind of like how we still have only 3 hero slots instead of 7.

Crom The Pale · Sep 23, 2007, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Here is the deal.

Asura and Norn title benifits are a BONUS just like a Moral bost. So if you can walk from the Asura areas to any other part of Tyria, say Lornar's Pass, then you can keep your bonus.

Other wise you might as well add a title that grants you a moral bost +1% per rank.

freekedoutfish · Sep 23, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

First it was consumables now your comparing aesthetics to permanent in game advantage.

The point is you can get armour for 1k that puts you on exactly the same level as a player with FoW armor.FoW armor creates absolutely no in-game advantage it just looks different.

That was the point ive been trying to make!!!! You dont need these pve only skills, and you dont need to use these status effects! Their purely optional and noting is dependant upon their use!

We have countless other skills ingame that do pretty much the same thing without the need for titles!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Gladiator title is a marker, nothing more.Asuran/Norm titles are a bonus in health and energy.Thats why nobody complains.

Your analogies are getting worse.

I 'll say it again.

Your asking that people who grind for these titles get to be lvl 25 while those that choose not too or do not own GWEN have to stay lvl 20.

What? are you suggesting that having +100 health or +15 energy makes a player lvl25? sorry but thats just nonsense!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Why do you keep saying "People don't want these titles because of this...." when people have stated exactly why they don't want them.

Have you actually read the reasons why or merely choose to ignore it and think up your own reasons to argue against.

Every valid point raised for these titles to stay in GWEN specific areas so far seems to have been blatantly ignored by you while you justify your argument against reasons you yourself have created.

All ive heard so far is that apparently letting people use an extra 100+ health or +15 energy in going to somehow make them over-powered and make the game alot easier!

But it wont! 100+ health isnt that huge a deal and whether you have it equipped in GWEN to not, you dont even notice any difference. Im currently on +83 health and it doesnt make that huge a difference to me.

The same goes for the +15 energy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Who would'nt want to be lvl 25.....seriously....

Again....it has nothing to do with that.Re-read this whole thread please.

+100 health, +15 energy unimportant?

Im really not getting your lvl25 idea!

How exactly is an extra 100+ health or +15 energy going to make a player, (who is already lvl20, max armor, max runes, max weapons, got a huge selection of skills and has experience) any hugely more powerfull?

Its not! You might get an extra 1 or 2 spells off with the extra energy! WoW! You might last 2-3 seconds longer in a fight! wow!!

You could go to a shrine and get a blessing to add +20 armor or +health for 30 minutes instead, does that mean it'l suddenly make the game a walk in the park?

Even if you used these status effects in HM, its not going to make HM and vcanquishing any easier!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

In a game where Superior Runes of Vigor go for 10-12k and people are after every pip of energy they can get I again wonder if you even play GW that much or just spend your time here writing completely illogical requests.

And why do most people start trying to get every last pip of energy or health? Because their new to the game and want every thing to be a high as possible!

Then you go and buy a max runes and loose 75 health! You might even use two and loose 150 health! Does loosing that 75-150 health render you useless and make the game suddenly alot harder? No ofcourse not!

So how is adding +100 isnt going to make it so much easier!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Nope...I have never grinded sorry.I have found playing the games through is enough to give me what I need.

I never said you did have to grind for anything. Ive always said that playing through the game and just doing missions and quests is enough to survive on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

No, it's because we would be forced to grind to attain max in-game level.

Who is forcing you to max the Asura, Norn, Drawf and Vanguard titles? Who is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to max them out?

Does having +15 energy add any huge advantage to GWEN? No!
Does having +100 health add any huge advantage to GWEN? No!
Does having +armor against the char and health boosts give an advantage in GWEN? No!

Ill accept the Drawf status effect has an impact, but even with using that title, the destroyers are NOT hard to fight!

The point being that at no point in GWEN is it impossible to progress if you dont display one race title or another. Its a nice touch and their handy to use if you want extra health, energy, damage or armor! But you dont need them!

The same would be said if they were game wide!

You wouldnt need that extra health or energy to play the game. It would all be do-able with it. No one would be forcing you to use them. If you did come accross a PUG that was dictating to use that title and not accepting you because your rank wasnt high enough, you tell them to grow up and stop trying to be elitist!

The same goes for the pve only skills.

You dont need to use them in any aspect of the game! Nothing is critical up on them. Your not forced to increase ranks to make them more powerfull, because their purely optional to use.

And the same example of a player trying to force you to use them, stands! I accept you will get some players in eltie zones trying to force you to use pve only skills or to use certain titles.

But the point is that you dont need them to do elite zones. How did we manage before all this stuff was added?

Any of the grind that exists in GW is all optional and there is no pressure to do it. Whether it be exploration, farming rare materials or increasing ranks in titles!

Its all optional and doesnt bare any impact on whether you can or cant complete a part of GWs.

But that doesnt mean we should have the choice to use status effects in the entire game. At the minute they have very little impact on GWEN anyway and their rather useless.

Why not give them a purpose and make them useable in the entire game?

Lets throw another comparison into the mix though, since you didnt like the consumables one and the FOW one! As I said above, we can already get health and armor boosts from shrines which add resistance to certain damage, disease, effects and increases in points too!

If you are argueing against adding +100 health or +15 energy because it makes the game easier, then you have to argue not to use blessings at shrines!

When you walk past a shrine while doing a quest, are you forced to get that blessing? are you forced to pick up the extra 20 armor or health, or resistance to disease or the extra pip in energy or fire damage?

Are you pressured into using them or do you just walk on past and ignore it!

I for one, have virtually never used blessings in the 2 years of playing the game because I chose not to, and I can never be bothered to get them! Did that make my game a whole lot harder? did it make it easier those few times I did use blessings? No!!

There are already countless ways to boost health, energy, armor, resistances and pip numbers ingame! But they dont add any huge advantage to gameplay that ive noticed! Ive never failed a quest or mission or elite zone or dungeon because I didnt use a blessing or a status effect!

Its all optional, its all just a choice! Its all just a nice little touch that you can use if you want, or ignore if you want to!

No one forces it up on you!

fireflyry · Sep 23, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

What? are you suggesting that having +100 health or +15 energy makes a player lvl25? sorry but thats just nonsense!

If the level cap was raised to 25 can you please tell me, aside from attributes, what the difference between a level 20 and a level 25 character would be?

Dude, it's really to the point where it's bashing heads against walls and I'm over it.

Why?

Because it will never happen...ever....for exactly the reasons myself and others have explained and I really can't be bothered repeatedly trying to explain the reasoning why anymore as you obviously struggle with the logic.

Luckily Anet does'nt and as much as I gather you'd like to endlessly rant on about it and come up with these illogical comparisons that won't change the end result in that these bonuses will never be allowed world wide for valid reason.

Personally I think you should just move on and enjoy the game and the titles as they stand.It's all good to discuss such things but this thread has become a broken record.

Take it easy.

draxynnic · Sep 23, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

If the level cap was raised to 25 can you please tell me, aside from attributes, what the difference between a level 20 and a level 25 character would be?

Exactly my point from earlier. Each level gives +20hp, so a full Norn title, health-wise, is equivalent to being level 25.

If you want to say that hit points and energy aren't important, let's have a quick trip to the rune trader. What, I wonder, are the most expensive runes and insignia?

Radiant, a fairly common drop is sitting pretty at 650 gold. Of the other profession-independant options, Survivor is sitting at 370. The only comparisons are Knight's and Sentinel's at 310 and 750 (and I've NEVER seen a Sentinel's drop myself, so that could be rarity), Bloodstained at 370 (another uncommon drop that happens to be incredibly useful for minion masters, a cookie cutter build), Nightstalker's at 300 (also uncommon), Windwalker's at 750 (reasonably common but not as much as Radiant, and seen as virtually required for most Dervish builds) and Centurian's at 650 (as Windwalker's, as most paragons nowadays maintain Aggressive Refrain to maintain the condition). Seems a lot of people think +8 energy is important enough to make it one of the most popular - and, hence, expensive - insignias. Furthermore, what is the primary class of the Elementalist? Energy Storage I believe... and I don't see many elementalists who consider energy to be so unimportant that they can skimp on that.

On the runes side... a Rune of Superior Vigor is twelve plat. No other rune even comes close. Seems people think +50hp is kinda important. Next one down is the major vigor at just under three platinum - so it seems that there are enough people who consider those nine hit points to be worth more than a platinum each to maintain the price. Seems hit points are important too.

Under the current system: Contrary to what some previous posters have stated, there is a basis for the titles to be location-specific. One reason is because it involves attuning to some power unique to the area - the animal spirits of the Norn, the background magic of the Asura - that simply aren't present elsewhere. Option number two is that the title is a benefit for doing things that the Norn and Asura approve of - they certainly approve of removing threats in their territory, but they couldn't care less about hunting corsairs in eastern Kourna.

Personally, I kinda like the title effects (if not their requirement to participate in a form of gameplay I don't enjoy in order to progress) as a bit of variety in the areas they are applicable for... but I'd rather not see them change the face of the game in the rest of the world. Even if ANet offered an instant maxing of those titles to all players I'd still object.

On the question of the difference a few points of health and energy makes: If you're spamming Lightning Hammer whenever it recharges with no energy management, it's not going to stop you from running out. It may, however, let you get one more off that takes that boss down before you go down. Extra hit points won't stop a mob of demons from ripping you apart - but if might give the monk an extra few seconds to put a healing spell into you... and then another few seconds to put the next one in... and then another few seconds... and then you find out that that mob is dead. Oh, and the Monk's extra energy makes it that much more likely (s)he'll still have the energy to put those heals in for long enough for the mob to go down.

They may be little things at first glance... but those little things add up, and in a close (or even not-so-close) fight, they may well be the difference between a wipe and not even suffering a casualty.

Really, when you get down to it... if it makes as little difference as you seem to be claiming, why do you care?

Bryant Again · Sep 23, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Here's a different take on it: There would be less incentive to build up rep for the other factions.

MithranArkanere · Sep 23, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Norn Could work in all snowy terrains (Shiverpeaks) Asuran in all jungle areas (Maguuma, but not Echoval, since it's a forest, not a jungle), the Vanguard already works in Ascalon. And the dwarven only works against destroyers...

Hm...

Razz Thom · Sep 24, 2007, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Dude don't try to apply logic to it because the people arguing against it are the ones sitting on 300-1million gold and are worried that some little bit of nothing will allow someone else to feel as 1337 as them. it is a waste of time to argue so just let it go. if they don't get their way their little cooters will be hurt. so no reason to apply logic because they have none. If there was a title that you could grind to earn extra loot tho their heads would explode so we can only hope. *crosses fingers waiting for leetist heads to explode*

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2007, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz Thom

Dude don't try to apply logic to it because the people arguing against it are the ones sitting on 300-1million gold and are worried that some little bit of nothing will allow someone else to feel as 1337 as them. it is a waste of time to argue so just let it go. if they don't get their way their little cooters will be hurt. so no reason to apply logic because they have none. If there was a title that you could grind to earn extra loot tho their heads would explode so we can only hope. *crosses fingers waiting for leetist heads to explode*

Dunno who you're talking to, since I'm only sitting on R4 Norn and 50k.

Aside from that, this post made me lol.

TabascoSauce · Sep 24, 2007, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Exactly my point from earlier. Each level gives +20hp, so a full Norn title, health-wise, is equivalent to being level 25.

Oh man. When freekedoutfish understands the ramifications of that true statement, he's going to pop a blood vessel.

+100 hitpoints is not equal to vanity armors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

On the other hand, reward for time spent is the *basis* of PvE. It's "grind", if you will, though that's often used with a negative connotation and its definition varies from person to person. You are rewarded for every second you play, whether it's through money drops, Gold/Green items, titles and so forth. So yes, you are rewarded for grind, whether it's mindless grind or fun grind, the game does not differentiate (it cannot because it a subjective matter). The more you play, the more rewards you get. That's pretty much what PvE is all about.

Interesting. Are you comparing gold drops and unique gold/green equipment, which become substantial over time, to the bonuses tied to title tracks? I would hazard to say that the bonus from a green -vs- a normal weapon are not as game-altering as the bonuses from title tracks, for both their level of effect and their equal bonuses to your heroes in the party.

As has been demonstrated in this thread, the extra health can be compared to gaining extra levels. It is apparent to me that ANet is looking to extend the lifespan of the game by forcing users to repeat specific small sections of content, in Macro-like behavior, as opposed to doing new content. Even if you made the case that taking 5-10 characters for all skills through a campaign, say factions, is equivalent to redoing content, it is vastly less constrained than taking those same 5-10 characters through 3 designated Norn zones and clearing them again and again and again.

I'm sorry, but I cannot endorse that kind of game mechanic. I'd call it grind.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

draxynnic · Sep 24, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Dunno who you're talking to, since I'm only sitting on R4 Norn and 50k.

Aside from that, this post made me lol.

Then you qualify. 50k is more than 300, after all...

(Yes, that was beneath me and I know exactly what he meant to say, but I couldn't resist...)

Amusingly, over the course of various threads, us anti-grinders have been called everything from n00bs looking for free handouts (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0201281&page=2, second-last post on that page, and from memory by the fish himself in threads relating to title requirements for armour) to elitists looking out to maintain their own position unwilling to give anything that even looks like a hand up to less experienced players (do I really need to post a link?). I'd think it would be hard to be both at once, but somehow we seem to have managed it...

Myself, I simply see it as the losing battle to preserve the skill over time spent mantra Guild Wars started with and started losing piece by piece since title benefits were first introduced.

Bryant Again · Sep 24, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Amusingly, over the course of various threads, us anti-grinders have been called everything from n00bs looking for free handouts (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0201281&page=2, second-last post on that page) to elitists looking out to maintain their own position unwilling to give anything that even looks like a hand up (do I really need to post a link?). I'd think it would be hard to be both at once, but somehow we seem to have managed it...

Sadly, this is what it's like down here these days. Leave logic at the door as it just makes your head hurt.

(pretty funny though)

freekedoutfish · Sep 24, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Oh man. When freekedoutfish understands the ramifications of that true statement, he's going to pop a blood vessel.

+100 hitpoints is not equal to vanity armors.....

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Erm no! I dont agree with his belief about the lvl25. Sorry to disapoint!

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

....
Amusingly, over the course of various threads, us anti-grinders have been called everything from n00bs looking for free handouts (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0201281&page=2, second-last post on that page, and from memory by the fish himself in threads relating to title requirements for armour) to elitists looking out to maintain their own position unwilling to give anything that even looks like a hand up to less experienced players (do I really need to post a link?). I'd think it would be hard to be both at once, but somehow we seem to have managed it.......

Ive personally never called anyone a noob because they want the titles unconnected from the pve only skills.

I would never call anyone a noob just because they dont want to increase a title and ranks. What my point has always been, is that people need to stop thinking the reputation ranks are important.

I would call someone a noob who thinks that the PvE only skills are critical to gameplay, or someone who thinks increasing the reputation ranks is critical to gameplay.

The fact is their not!

You dont need the status effects, or the pve only skills, or higher ranks in these titles to do anything ingame. If you think otherwise and your trying to put some kind of priority on them, then your misguided.

Either someone has told you that you "need a higher rank" and you have believed them, or you personally think its their critical for some reason.

But if you choose or choose not to increase those ranks, then fine. Its your choice. But stop thinking that its-the-end-of-the-world if you dont have a high Norn or Asura rank.

It wont make the game any more or less able to be compeleted!

The noobs in my view, are those who try to force and pressure others into increasing these ranks. The people who tell them "you cant join my PUG unless you have rank 10 Drawf" or "you cant join my PUG unless you have a certain pve only skill at this level". Those are the noobs and those are the people ruining the game for others.

Sab · Sep 24, 2007, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Interesting. Are you comparing gold drops and unique gold/green equipment, which become substantial over time, to the bonuses tied to title tracks? I would hazard to say that the bonus from a green -vs- a normal weapon are not as game-altering as the bonuses from title tracks, for both their level of effect and their equal bonuses to your heroes in the party.

That they are different kinds of rewards, that's why in the following paragraph I said I don't agree with "this particular kind" of reward, i.e. becoming numerically stronger beyond level 20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

As has been demonstrated in this thread, the extra health can be compared to gaining extra levels. It is apparent to me that ANet is looking to extend the lifespan of the game by forcing users to repeat specific small sections of content, in Macro-like behavior, as opposed to doing new content. Even if you made the case that taking 5-10 characters for all skills through a campaign, say factions, is equivalent to redoing content, it is vastly less constrained than taking those same 5-10 characters through 3 designated Norn zones and clearing them again and again and again.

I'm sorry, but I cannot endorse that kind of game mechanic. I'd call it grind.

Any sort of farming can be boiled down to macro-like behaviour. Farming for greens, for example, you go out, run a certain route to the boss then you kill him. Then zone back do it again and again. Eventually you'll be rewarded with a green. Farming for anything else is not much different. It all depends on your own definition of "grind".

freekedoutfish · Sep 24, 2007, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I'm sorry, but I cannot endorse that kind of game mechanic. I'd call it grind.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Tabasco if you cant endorse grind in any form, then why are you playing an MMO/RPG? Why are you playing GWs which has contained grind from the very start.

You obviously dont mind grind while farming.
You obviously dont mind grinding for greens.
You obviously dont mind grinding missions, quests and dungeons.
You obviously dont mind grinding to max easier titles.

But amazingly, you start complaining about grind when it doesnt suit you and what you want!

Your being a complete hyerpcrit, talking about grind like its a disease which the game suffers from. I assume youve been around from the start like most people, and only now you start complaining.

Please explain to me what the priority is around these pve only skills, and the reputation ranks that is forcing you to grind them?
Is there a bomb in your chest that will explode if you dont max them out in the next 2 months?

This has been said before, but compared to other MMOs. We get a free ride in GWs. The grind in this game isnt critical, compared to other games. Its not like we have to spend 6 hours mining materials to create weapons like other games.

Everything is virtually given to us in GWs, and you want to complain about grind!

Tera · Sep 24, 2007, 09:07 AM // 09:07

i can see where most people are coming from, but didn't gailie herself confirm that EOTN would have extra character development beyond level 20, but wouldn't raise the level cap?

and before someone asks, no, i dont mind if this is implemented or not, it makes no difference to me,

however, the title tracks can hardly be considered 'character development' if they only work in certain areas. Unless Anet plan to add something else in to EOTN in a future update, then these should be allowed to work in other areas, so Anet are living up to the things they said pror to EOTN's release.

Then again, why not add a title that removes max health and energy for those who want a challenge? *cough*

fireflyry · Sep 24, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Erm no! I dont agree with his belief about the lvl25. Sorry to disapoint!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

If the level cap was raised to 25 can you please tell me, aside from attributes, what the difference between a level 20 and a level 25 character would be?

Please, if you don't mind, could you respond to the question.

draxynnic · Sep 24, 2007, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Ive personally never called anyone a noob because they want the titles unconnected from the pve only skills.

Not in those precise words, no. But I distinctly remember that you were among the people saying that those people who didn't like having to grind the titles for armour were just too slack to work for their reward.

It's something I consider more of a grey area than the topic of this particular discussion, since a) it's vanity, and b) it can be seen as a variation of the shard/ecto collection for obsidian (although FoW and UW have quests that you can do while you're collecting those materials as well as the option to buy them outright if you get the funds from other sources, which is less so with reputation grind) but I certainly remember comments along the general lines of "It's not that much, if you really thought it was important you'd do the work" in your posts.

Incidentally, on grinding quests, missions and dungeons: If you do it once per character in order to complete the storyline (whether the big storyline or just the sideplot featured in that quest or dungeon) it isn't grind except in the very loosest definition of the term - it's storyline completion. It's when you do the same thing with the same character over and over again that it becomes grind. (As an aside, this is actually one of the things I don't like about things like the Norn blessing skills, the junundu, and the siege devourer - they blur out the difference between characters and make it feel more like a genuine grind as you put multiple characters through.)