Curse

Bryant Again · Sep 21, 2007, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Imagine them doing all the starter quests with the ability to remove DP and protect against critical hits. That is a far greater advantage then adding 100 health or extra energy!

That has got to be *the* biggest way to waste your consumables next to dragging them to your trash bin.

fireflyry · Sep 21, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

We are not talking about PvE skills here, only the Asura and Norn title effects.

Fair call and my posts of critique should be interpreted as such although I did mention skills a tad to often.

EinherjarMx · Sep 21, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Would you want a crafter in GW:EN to make a shield with +90 hp mod? or an offhand with +22 energy? This is the equivilant of what your asking for.

Trust me, he would agree that

btw, i didn't knew that "rich people" are those who can spend 1.5k max on an item that would surely be used on vaquishing or a HM mission,

If you want to get +100hp, +10nrg + consumables why not just type /godmode ?

i got an idea!, let us use all the 4 titles at the same time so we can get all the bonuses

/sarcasm

Retribution X · Sep 21, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

/notsigned

If I need an additional 100 health or 10 energy in order to PvE, I fail at Guild Wars.

TabascoSauce · Sep 21, 2007, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinherjarMx

If you want to get +100hp, +10nrg + consumables why not just type /godmode ?

Well, the problem that seems to keep coming up is not what you are portraying.

If I would/could/should write a macro that would c + space clear zones for me, then I could, simply by time spent by a macro, gain access to super-powerful skills - tied to title tracks. Is that the way GW should be played, the mechanic for rewards gained?

I cannot stress this next part enough. Skills Not limited by the 200 attribute point mechanic.

I think that is the focus of objection by most of the posters here.

I understand and agree with it - it is a bad move by ANet any way you look at it.

Quoted from the Guild Wars website:

Guild Wars® is an online roleplaying game that rewards player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

They said it, not me.

Really, I object to rewarding Macro-like behavior in players.

Lastly, a thought posted by another forumite whose very simplicity and wisdom I like to give full credit for by quoting him:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zubrowka

Grinders are basically workaholics. They think they're playing a game but what they really want is a work simulator. Getting "rewards" for time and labor spent--that's the very definition of work. There's no way you can get around that. If you want be "rewarded" from spending time in a game, then it's no longer a game: it is work. Real gamers don't want work. They play games to have fun. The diconomy presented by the OP between hardcore gamers vs. casual ones is bogus. People don't want to grind not because they're casual. They don't want to grind because it's freaking stupid.

So, why reward grind? Its a bad move, and it is against the very precepts that GW has on its own website.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

fireflyry · Sep 21, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Awesome post TabascoSauce and great...GREAT quote.

freekedoutfish · Sep 21, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That has got to be *the* biggest way to waste your consumables next to dragging them to your trash bin.

Yet I expected it does and is happening. Yet no one seems bothered by the staggering advantage its creating!

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinherjarMx

.....btw, i didn't knew that "rich people" are those who can spend 1.5k max on an item that would surely be used on vaquishing or a HM mission,...

Im talking about buying them in bulk and on mass. Like 20-30 at a time if your rich enough. Im not saying your casual player cant afford one or two consumables.

But richers players can affford alot more, and if they share them or trade them to low end players, its a huge advantage to them to remove all DP when ever they need to.

But again... no one seems botherd by that, yet everyone is up in arms against givng people 100 health and 15 energy.

Forgive me if i think removing all DP is a far bigger advantag, and yet no one cares!

EinherjarMx · Sep 21, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

because it is like if you were saying "if people who doesn't have gw:en can have xx bonus for a determined time, why can't I, who have payed for the expansion get similar bonuses forever?"

fireflyry · Sep 21, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Im talking about buying them in bulk and on mass. Like 20-30 at a time if your rich enough. Im not saying your casual player cant afford one or two consumables.

But richers players can affford alot more, and if they share them or trade them to low end players, its a huge advantage to them to remove all DP when ever they need to.

But again... no one seems botherd by that, yet everyone is up in arms against givng people 100 health and 15 energy.

Forgive me if i think removing all DP is a far bigger advantag, and yet no one cares!

Game cash giving you a temporary bonus to rez, DP, Crit Strike rate, etc VS Game time and grind giving you a near permanent bonus on a lvl 20.

lol...what a comparison.

At the end of the day I think you have a viable issue worthy of discussion, all be it totally unrealistic to implement imo, but you really seem to avoid quoting points and rebuttal which prove your standpoint wrong.

draxynnic · Sep 22, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Yet I expected it does and is happening. Yet no one seems bothered by the staggering advantage its creating!

Im talking about buying them in bulk and on mass. Like 20-30 at a time if your rich enough. Im not saying your casual player cant afford one or two consumables.

But richers players can affford alot more, and if they share them or trade them to low end players, its a huge advantage to them to remove all DP when ever they need to.

But again... no one seems botherd by that, yet everyone is up in arms against givng people 100 health and 15 energy.

Forgive me if i think removing all DP is a far bigger advantag, and yet no one cares!

Apart from all the other arguments that can be posted, there's one big difference that I can see:

You don't need to do anything special to get money. Simply play the game, do missions and quests, and your gold (and skill points) will accumulate. Pretty much any form of PvE will lead to this, and playing different characters will not slow down your rate of wealth acquisition.

Gaining the benefit of titles, on the other hand, requires grinding zones over and over again. Completing the storyline, even if you do so with ten characters, is not going to get you any titles over R5. From then on, to call a spade a spade, it's grind, grind, grind.

That, in my mind, is a big difference. Consumables say play the game, get an advantage. Title benefits currently say play the game, in a specific manner which many people do not find to be enjoyable, and gain a benefit. Both involve gaining a benefit from time spent which I'd rather wasn't in the game at all, but at least the former doesn't dictate how you spend that time.

There's also the element that consumables are fairly equitable in their behaviour. if you use, say, an Essence of Celerity in a half-hour mission, that consumable doesn't care if you have a stack of 249 left or if that was your only one. Titles, on the other hand, receive a clear benefit from accumulation.

Furthermore, I think your assertion that rich players will be popping them like candy (okay, bad metaphor, but you know what I mean) is an extreme or even strawman argument. You don't become rich by wasting resources, be those resources gold, materials, consumables, or something else. The only way such use of consumables could be profitable is if it is, well, profitable - if the use of the consumable allows them to gather loot that will pay for the use of the consumable. And if that's the case... couldn't poor players also use them in the same fashion?

Even if you don't have huge amounts of money, practically anyone can acquire one or two consumables that they can pull out to help them through a tight spot or use as a seed to help them get more money, one way or another. At the end of the day, consumables are much more accessible for the casual player, while a wide application of titles will be putting those that don't have the time or inclination to grind for them at a disadvantage.

Crom The Pale · Sep 22, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

A few more points.

consumables, for the most part, are party wide bonus as oppossed to titles that only effect the player with it and Hero/Hench.

I do agree that tying the skills to the titles is not the best idea, and I would rather see them as static, ie you get skill its stats never change.

However that being said these are items, just like the title themselves that are meant to keep people playing. Anet most likely assumes the average/casual player will spend 2-3 months working on raising one or two of these titles to benifit the skills in that title tract.

There are however a large number of hard core people that want to have the titles maxed in a matter of hours. These are the people that grind and grind for it and are not to be confused with the masses.

As for the title benifits spreading beyond GW:EN, Norn/Asura, story wise it doesn't make much sense however I have little objections on the grounds that it would unbalance the game or grant any significant advantage to that end.

Bryant Again · Sep 22, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Yet I expected it does and is happening. Yet no one seems bothered by the staggering advantage its creating!

Getting to level 20 is horrendously extrodinarily easy as it is. If someone wants to blow their hard spent rep farming just so they can get some consumables to level up their character...Then godspeed.

What's frickin' hilarious is how you see this to be more of a problem than title/skill discrimination. The stench of the irony is sickening.

AuraofMana · Sep 22, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

I like how grinding is automatically labeled retarded by people who doesn't grind. Oh, you said real players play the game because it is fun? What if some people find grinding fun? Then what? Different people play the same game for different aspects, which they find fun. If someone likes dungeon crawling over and over again, by all means, it's not retarded if he has fun. If someone likes to redo missions over and over again, then it isn't retarded. If someone wants to grind over and over again (like a lot of MMORPGers), then by all means, do it if you like it so much. Just because someone say it is retarded doesn't mean you have to care. Their opinions shouldn't affect you in anyway seeing how you are playing the game for yourself, not them.
So if you don't like grinding, don't grind. If you like grinding, go for it. Stop trying to influence people to do stuff you do unless it's like a better build or farming route.
Same goes for wanting difficulty as opposed to master planning before everything. Play whatever the way you want. You are playing the game for your own fun, not theirs.

Mangione · Sep 22, 2007, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Preface:
I DON'T use PVE skills a lot, even if I have almost all of them on my characters.
I often forget to show titles (and then get bonuses from them), since I can play the game even without them.
I vanquished Elona and a lot of other areas in the other continents, and completed some of the missions I like in Hard Mode, just for the fun of it. All done H/H before Eye Of The North came out, so I don't need those PVE skills, nor do I need the title benefits, not even for Hard Mode.

After saying that, here's my opinion:

/signed BUT
the title effect should be halved in the areas out of influence as already stated previously:

Quote:

Originally Posted by akh

Easy solution - full effect in norn/asura/vanguard territory, half the bonus outside.

(Norn title when showed will give HALF the health while are outside of Norn teritory, so, as an example: while you have +60 health in Norn territory, you'll have +30 outside, while asuran will give +8 energy, outside asuran lands will give +4)

The "ingame logic"?
Those titles work well in the areas because you have a bond/attunement to whatever powers give you those benefits, but are halved when you are fare because the bond/attunement is still active, but is weaker because you are far from the source.

What is "PVE Imbalance"?
I can understand PVP skill balancing, since you are playing against other people and need a balance to let people play (compete) on the same level. But when you play (cooperate) against computer controlled enemies, what is supposed to mean "PVE balancing"?

Will we ever see a petition from the wurms "Wurm Bile is too easy to interrupt, please, lower its casting time, we can't compete against players..." ?

------
Please, since English is not my main language, I'm trying to improve it.
If you see errors in my posts, please PM me pointing them out.
Thanks!

draxynnic · Sep 22, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

I like how grinding is automatically labeled retarded by people who doesn't grind. Oh, you said real players play the game because it is fun? What if some people find grinding fun? Then what? Different people play the same game for different aspects, which they find fun. If someone likes dungeon crawling over and over again, by all means, it's not retarded if he has fun. If someone likes to redo missions over and over again, then it isn't retarded. If someone wants to grind over and over again (like a lot of MMORPGers), then by all means, do it if you like it so much. Just because someone say it is retarded doesn't mean you have to care. Their opinions shouldn't affect you in anyway seeing how you are playing the game for yourself, not them.
So if you don't like grinding, don't grind. If you like grinding, go for it. Stop trying to influence people to do stuff you do unless it's like a better build or farming route.
Same goes for wanting difficulty as opposed to master planning before everything. Play whatever the way you want. You are playing the game for your own fun, not theirs.

I have no problem with people grinding if they find that fun. I have no interest is stopping them from doing so or, indeed, being rewarded for doing so.

Such rewards already existed before titles were introduced. It's called gold. Which doesn't directly increase your power, but it can be put towards purchasing vanity skins, runes, and other benefits.

The important thing is, however, you can get gold without grinding. Maybe not at the same rate as you could by farming high-reward areas, but you don't have to grind to get it. So the people who don't grind, but who still want to receive some of those benefits, can do so - maybe not so quickly, but they're not given an absolute "you must grind to get this".

The titles, however, don't give this choice. The choice is quite simple: you MUST grind, or you won't get them.

For the people who like grinding, this is clearly no problem. For the people who don't enjoy it, however... this is essentially saying "this is how you MUST play in order to get this." It removes the choice - or at least removes a choice - instead of being 'grind for it', 'don't grind and get it a little slower' and 'don't bother at all', the second option is not there.

So until there are ways to get the titles to their maximum level without grinding, every benefit granted to a title (and increasing the applicability of a title is essentially granting another benefit) is presenting that limited choice to the non-grinders - do something you don't enjoy, or do without. And when you're talking about five levels worth of extra hit points (estimated for the maxed Norn title) that's a big disadvantage for the non-grinders.

TabascoSauce · Sep 22, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

If someone likes dungeon crawling over and over again, by all means, it's not retarded if he has fun. If someone likes to redo missions over and over again, then it isn't retarded. If someone wants to grind over and over again (like a lot of MMORPGers), then by all means, do it if you like it so much. Just because someone say it is retarded doesn't mean you have to care. Their opinions shouldn't affect you in anyway seeing how you are playing the game for yourself, not them.

Ah, but we are not advocating to stop players from redoing content - we're advocating to remove the title benefits. Feel free to redo all the content you want, the game has supported that from day one.

You just do not need two free extra Sup Vig (norn title) as a reward for all that grind.

Oh, you mean that its not just the "love" of grind, but that want to be rewarded for all that silly stupid retarded grind? Huh. What was that line from the Guild Wars website, the one that they were so proud of, yeah.

Guild Wars® is an online roleplaying game that rewards player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

Yeah. I like people, especially politicians, to hold to their word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinherjarMx

because it is like if you were saying "if people who doesn't have gw:en can have xx bonus for a determined time, why can't I, who have payed for the expansion get similar bonuses forever?"

I'm not sure if this is a response to me or someone else. What exactly do you mean by "doesnt have GWEN can have XX bonus for a determined time"?

That is not a justification to support grind, no matter how I turn over that statement, or the angle I see it from, If your argument is that people who buy GWEN will have an advantage over players who have not, then you're arguing the wrong thing. I think Spoil Victor is a huge advantage, do you have to own a specific campaign to get access to it?

The campaign advantage is built in, we're trying to stop advantage from grind, because ANet said the quote I italicized for AuraoMana, which contradicts what they are doing now.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Harmless · Sep 22, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

The people you are arguing with, and let me put in the word "may" here - may be entitlement junkies.

Really, if a player is winning the game anyway, what does extra health or power do? Nothing. It will not make a difference in their game play experience, since they are already winning. They have other motives for screaming "no".

Maybe they get some kind of power kick out of the idea that they can win the game, and haunt forums to seek and mock others who cannot. That is a sick mindset and they need professional help, really. The really sad part is that the whole basis for the game is the rock/paper/scissors trick/countertrick paradigm, so if a PvE mob or Boss is using paper, they just need the scissor skills. I have been reading the difficulty complaint threads, and the players having difficulty are always lacking skills. Of course, as the height of hubris they imply that the other player is deficient, when more likely they have a job or other priorities, besides GW, and lack time.

Of course, they could also just be annoying weenies as well.

I really do not see a good spin for the people who say in one thread "lrn2play" and in another "OMG ONOES dont make the game easier!!!!!!!11!!one!" without offering a shred of assistance to people in builds or tips.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

QFT

Being able to use the rank bonuses elsewhere is not going to make that huge of a difference. They don't even help that much where they are used, half the time I don't bother to put them on. It would, however, be a nice reward for achieving the ranks in eotn. Perhaps make them able to be used elsewhere at 100,000 rank experience.

freekedoutfish · Sep 22, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

So, why reward grind? Its a bad move, and it is against the very precepts that GW has on its own website.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

You could argue that FOW armor rewards insainly long grind to either buy or farm ectos and shards!

FOW armor certainly doesnt reward skill or effort. You just need the materials, and to then do an armor run to the crafter and a few easy quests along the same.

Should we remove FOW armor on that basis, along with all the other aspects which players concider to be grind?

Somehow I get the feeling there would be a huge outcry if FOW was to suddenly be removed, or the grind to achieve it was removed!

Anet tried to prevent heavy farming with anti-farming code and loot scaling (the main grind aspect of the game) and people complained on mass.

Should we remove the prestige armor that required 250 destroyers cores and 70 ectors? Should we remove the destroyer weapons which require 10 diamons and 10 Oynxs?

You use the word "grind" like to describe aspects of GWs like its a clear and defined thing. The simple fact is that grind has existed since the start of GWs and its a fundimental aspect of the game, and all MMOs.

You grind to farm gold.
You grind to farm rare materials.
You grind to farm greens.
You grind to do dungeons or elite zones that can take hours.
You grind to increase titles and ranks.
You grind to complete the storyline.
You grind to do quests that are insainly hard at times.
You grind to explore.
You grind to ID gold items.
You grind to open high end chests.
You grind to max a character to lvl20 (to one degree or another).
You grind to do most things in GWs...

...grind is a matter of perspective and its relative to the player. Grind is anything that takes a pro-longed amount of time to do, and which you either enjoy or you dont.

I notice how no one complains about PvP and the pressure put on players to grind their gladiator titles to higher levels. There is a huge amount of pressure on players in PvP to be a certain rank to join teams, otherwise your "not good enough".

So those players then grind their way higher. So even PvP has grind!

People only ever complain about specific grind, when it suits them. Usually when its an aspect of the game why want. It doesnt matter whether that aspect will actually benefit them in anyway or not.

Just look at all the exploration threads that complain about wanting % marks in zones because they cant be bothered to grind their way through exploration.

Look at all the threads asking for certain titles to become account based because they dont want to grind their way through countless ranks for each player.

The same goes for these pve only skills, and the status effects!

Neither are important, neither are critical to the game, neither are required or forced upon you in anyway. Yet people want them maxed out. Not because its vitally important, but only because they want these new oober powerfull skills to make their lives easier!

People are complaining about having the status effects game wide because they dont want to grind to max the titles to have the status effects be 100% effective.

You dont need to use them or even have them be 100% effective. But if they were to be game wide, players would want to use them. Not because their critical to gameplay, but just because theyd make their lives easier and they want to be as powerfull as the guy next to them.

This is more about ego then actual inbalancement and advantages and disadvantages. Its about seeing the player next to you with rank 8 Norn and being jealous because your only rank 5. But you dont want to grind to get the extra health.

Despite it not even being important or vital to the game. But because this other player has a higher rank, you have to aswell otherwise its unfair.

People through this word "grind" around when it suit them. But they seem to ignore that they have spent the last 2 years playing a game, that already asked them to grind 10000 times over.

You have grinded to buy your armor, you have grinded to get your green weapon, you have grinded to explore and open chests and do missions!

Yet its only now you complain because its suddenly a grind you dont personally enjoy!

I have legendary guardian, and it has no importance on the game. Alot of players have commented in saying, I must be a l33t, hardcore player who wants to look impressive. They have commented that doing HM is pointless and just more grind.

Yet I enjoyed every moment of HM because it was a challenge.

But because those few people concider HM a grind, should it be removed? is it unfair I have access to HM drops and they dont because they dont like playing in HM?

Sab · Sep 22, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Oh, you mean that its not just the "love" of grind, but that want to be rewarded for all that silly stupid retarded grind? Huh. What was that line from the Guild Wars website, the one that they were so proud of, yeah.

Guild Wars® is an online roleplaying game that rewards player skill and innovative gameplay over hours spent online.

The quoted statement should have been clearer. It refers to PvP, not PvE, so the skill > time spent argument has no relevance in this thread at all.

In other MMOs, grinding for that uber weapon meant you're that much more powerful than other players in a competitive environment. The difference in Guild Wars is that you can grind all you want, you're not going to get a statistical advantage over someone who uses PvP weapons.

On the other hand, reward for time spent is the *basis* of PvE. It's "grind", if you will, though that's often used with a negative connotation and its definition varies from person to person. You are rewarded for every second you play, whether it's through money drops, Gold/Green items, titles and so forth. So yes, you are rewarded for grind, whether it's mindless grind or fun grind, the game does not differentiate (it cannot because it a subjective matter). The more you play, the more rewards you get. That's pretty much what PvE is all about.

With all that said, I don't agree with this particular kind of reward. I'd only be repeating others, but I'll just say that with Hard Mode coming (and hence the ability to max these tracks), the titles themselves are enough of a reward already.

Bryant Again · Sep 22, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Should we remove FOW armor on that basis, along with all the other aspects which players concider to be grind?

No, because any ascended armor or green/unique weapon does not give you anything besides looking different. It's when you do get something from the grind that makes the game easier that people seem to have a beef with.