Curse

freekedoutfish · Sep 19, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swift Thief

/Unsigned

Not everyone has GWEN.

And your point is?

There are lots of assets in campaigns that arent available in other campaigns;

Normal skills,
Elite skills,
Heroes,
Armor,
Weapons,
Consumables,
Insignias!

Should we not be able to use factions normal and elite skills in Nightfall, just incase one person doesnt own factions?

Should we not allow people to use NF heroes in factions or prophercies just incase one person doesnt own NF?

Should we not allow people to use consumables in factions, nightfall or prophercies just incase one person doesnt have either?

There are also titles that cant be earned unless you have all 3 like legendary cartog, skill hunting and guardian!

Should we not allow people to earn them just incase one person doesnt have all 3?

Its called marketting!

Buy GWEN and/or all the campaigns if you want access to everything!

Yichi · Sep 19, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Yes, you stated the problem quite succinctly. The base title effects are worthless outside of GWEN.... what a waste. Some of us would like for that to change.

Try seeing our point of view.

Ok whats your point of view then. That these will somehow magically turn a bad player into a mediocre player you can pug with? Ok let's look at the average person that has a r5 asura title, they are getting another 10 energy. Thats basically 2 more casts on a bar he either 1. shouldn't be using due to bad skill selection or very sub-optimal for the area they are trying to deal with, or 2. probably isn't running to max their own efficiency in the first place, otherwise you wouldn't need the extra 10 energy. The extra health isn't going to save the guy running 2 sups on his fire ele and wants to use Star Burst in the front lines anyway, no matter if your monk has the extra 10 energy or not.

So again I ask, whats the point of having these titles in any more than whats being used for them already? Your supposed side has all said one thing basically. thats this: "Hi. I'm mediocre at best and still having trouble dealing with the PvE gameplay. I need something more easier so I don't really have to do anything but just push 1 button and sit back and reap the rewards." You have given no real reasons as to why this should be allowed into any other aspect of the game, yet try to jump someones ass when they bring up reasons as to WHY it shouldnt be allowed or is just plain rediculous as to why youre asking for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

And your point is?

There are lots of assets in campaigns that arent available in other campaigns;

Ok let's deduct thest down to what they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Normal skills,
Elite skills,
Heroes,
Armor,
Weapons,
Consumables,
Insignias!

Your normal skills will have 90% of them copied into an alternate version of them with the new skills from the different campaigns, and core skills are available to anyone who onws 1 on the campaigns. This argument is basically irrelevant with the exception of PvP.

Heroes you must buy nightfall. Heroes = customizable henchman, but each and every campaign is easily doable with hench only. Prophecies and factions both didn't have heroes and still worked just fine.

Armor, weapons, and insignias = irrelevant. The skin of an armor or weapon does not make one any better than the other. Each has a max level and max attributes assigned to them. Your point is void. The same insignias can now be bought at ANY rune trader and can be fitted on Any armor that will accept them through any campaign. Point void. The only campaigns where you cannot have inscribable weapons available to everyone is Factions and nightfall. The basic weapon mods that anyone will want can be found on all non-inscribable weapons or bought for cheap enough, or found on green items. point somewhat vaild ill give u that.

Consumables have been around since the first event function. Everyone has had opportunities at candycanes, clovers, eggs, etc. at some point. point void.

So it boils down to you have 1/2 a point in all of your argument that you so endlessly rambled on about. try harder.

TabascoSauce · Sep 19, 2007, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

So again I ask, whats the point of having these titles in any more than whats being used for them already? Your supposed side has all said one thing basically. thats this: "Hi. I'm mediocre at best and still having trouble dealing with the PvE gameplay. I need something more easier so I don't really have to do anything but just push 1 button and sit back and reap the rewards." You have given no real reasons as to why this should be allowed into any other aspect of the game, yet try to jump someones ass when they bring up reasons as to WHY it shouldnt be allowed or is just plain rediculous as to why youre asking for it.

You keep going here to this point. I recall being in other threads with you about grind, and title based advantages, and in those, you used that argument for the exact opposite reason - because we as players are not in competition in PvE and advantages you earn from grind/whatever/lucky drops/work/etc are what you earned and does not affect gameplay of the noobs who cannot compete PvE, so do not try and take away your grind-based entitlement super skills/bonuses

Forget it. Bonuses given to players do not affect you. You are not in competition in PvE, by your own words written by you.

Give it up - even if they are noobs who need the help, I find it easy to reconcile with your past behavior and posts that you would not lift a finger to help them in the slightest, even though you are perfectly content to use the same argument to defend your grind-based entitlements even though, as you say, you are not in competition in PvE with them.

Stop being so cheap - everybody getting a tormented axe will not make the milk in your real fridge vanish. It'll still be there.

If this post seems harsh to you, then good. It is irresponsible to flip flop on argument tactics when it suits your interests.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

lord dragon · Sep 19, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Lord (or who ever it was) for the 100th time, drop your rediculious notion that the pve only skills create inbalence. I've been through that entire arguement in two other threads. Both of which I left because it just got pathetic.[/i]

No, what is pathetic is a grinder that believes he needs to be all powerful in order to show off or decide who can play.

Grind for your titles. Take the skills out of the grind. If you want them in other areas, find, let everyone have them without grinding them.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

CyberNigma · Sep 19, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I don't mind if they are in other areas. There's already a mechanism to turn them off for people that don't believe in them/don't want them. It's not PvP so one person getting loot or finishing a mission with the titles isn't going to prevent someone not using them from getting loot/finishing a mission.

Also, I disagree about the dungeons if the skills aren't allowed outside their campaigns. The dungeons just happen to be under the norn/asura/char lands, but they are clearly in the domain of the dwarves (hences Beacons instead of humanoid bounty givers).

Besides, if allowing the pve skills in other areas would imbalance the play there then allowing them in the dungeons would probably imbalance them as well since they weren't created with that in mind. If you mean imbalance players against other players in pve, please just... well, nevermind.

Yichi · Sep 20, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

You keep going here to this point. I recall being in other threads with you about grind, and title based advantages, and in those, you used that argument for the exact opposite reason - because we as players are not in competition in PvE and advantages you earn from grind/whatever/lucky drops/work/etc are what you earned and does not affect gameplay of the noobs who cannot compete PvE, so do not try and take away your grind-based entitlement super skills/bonuses

Forget it. Bonuses given to players do not affect you. You are not in competition in PvE, by your own words written by you.

Give it up - even if they are noobs who need the help, I find it easy to reconcile with your past behavior and posts that you would not lift a finger to help them in the slightest, even though you are perfectly content to use the same argument to defend your grind-based entitlements even though, as you say, you are not in competition in PvE with them.

Stop being so cheap - everybody getting a tormented axe will not make the milk in your real fridge vanish. It'll still be there.

If this post seems harsh to you, then good. It is irresponsible to flip flop on argument tactics when it suits your interests.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

1. I've been the same person throughout the entire time I've ever posted on these forums.
2. Other players can grind/earn/buy/farm/etc. for whatever they like, It will never effect how I choose to play the game.
3. I could honestly care less what others have and I may or may not. I have the items and things I need to be able to play the game to the level that I choose to play it on.
4. Others titles/bonuses/etc. no not effect me, so therefore I could care less what rank in title you are or are not.
5. You obviously have never read any constructive post I have ever made. Any post I have made has either given advice, Game mechanics, or I have even personally given my ign and had said to anyone who wanted or needed help with anything or just wanted to make other friends ingame to have a real person to run around in game with to pm me and I would reply or accompany anyone as long as I wasn't currently occupied. During the Duncan farming, I pugged a lot actually, usually doing around 5 runs a day when friends weren't on or I wasnt GvG'ing with the guild. Guess reading comprehension does fail you.

The point I made and have brought up is the fact of several things. 1. This isn't needed in any part of the game except for the destroyer areas. 2. The titles are area based. There are no other areas linked with any of these titles other than the ones allotted for it. 3. These titles will not help any player having trouble in the game. If your entire party is wiping and extra 60 health (for example) will not help your team survive if your average monster can deal out more damage than you can protect against or heal for. The extra 10 energy isn't going to make or break a bad pug monk from being horrible and not learning why they are running out of energy or why their skill selection/bar is incredibly inefficient. The asuran/norn/vanguard/and dwarven titles were put into the game for specific areas with specific purposes, and the only one that even matters among those is the dwarven title simply for the extra damage against destroyers. If there are no other areas throughout the game that are considered occupied and controlled by the asurans, norn, or ebon vanguard, then where else in the game would these skill serve a purpose? When this question is answered with a serious response other than "well some of us might like it" than ill accept your argument. Until a reasonable counterpoint is made, you have no real argument other than "well I might like it." thus serving your own personal interest rather than the state of the game youre playing involving the entire community.

TabascoSauce · Sep 20, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Am I the only one that sees a difference between an objection to the stated argument for making the 4 GW:EN titular track skill bonuses available across all campaigns:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

"Hi. I'm mediocre at best and still having trouble dealing with the PvE gameplay. I need something more easier so I don't really have to do anything but just push 1 button and sit back and reap the rewards."

and:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

I could honestly care less what others have and I may or may not. I have the items and things I need to be able to play the game to the level that I choose to play it on.

If you do not have an objection to what others have or do not have, then what is your objection to the "mediocre players" you are quick to sneer at getting a benefit?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

trobinson97 · Sep 20, 2007, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Am I the only one that sees a difference between an objection to the stated argument for making the 4 GW:EN titular track skill bonuses available across all campaigns:

and:

If you do not have an objection to what others have or do not have, then what is your objection to the "mediocre players" you are quick to sneer at getting a benefit?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Lol, nope, you're not.

Shadowfox1125 · Sep 20, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

If you've beaten any of the campaigns, then this is unnecessary. If you've been unable to beat ANY of the campaigns, then, jeez, what are you reading this for? Go learn how to play the game.

draxynnic · Sep 20, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

If I understand your statement there. Are you saying consumables are ok to use in previous campaigns because they can be used to trade and make profit? If im right, doesnt that prove my point about people favourism consumables because the only require gold!

That would suggest that im right in thinking people are purely against this idea because either they wont make profit on it, or they cant simply buy it! I've only seen reasons against this idea, because people have to work to make the Status effects stronger!

While people are fine with consumables and candy canes being used in all campaigns because they either get them free or can buy them!

So again the rich are fine (because they can buy hand fulls of consumables)... while the poor suffer (because they cant). Just adding to the rich-poor devide! IMO the status effects are actually more fair then the consumables. The status effects only require earning points and grinding (something we all can do), while consumables require large amounts of gold to buy them in bulk.

Consumables are a rich-mans luxary and a poor-mans necessity!

Status effects are usable by all, regardless of wealth! It makes no sense to allow consumables to be used in all aspects of the game, but not status effects! Consumables could be used by low-end players and make it far easier to progess at low levels! Status effects can only be used by high end players from GWEN who are already maxed out.

End result =

The rich can buy handfulls of consumables and make their personal gameplay and the gameplay of low-end characters, aloteasier.

The poor cant afford consumables, and make do with less effective candy canes and less of them! Their lives are still a headache!

Solution =

Make status effects work throughout the entire game to give the poor players more of an edge!

I feel the urge to point out a fallacy here...

Some people have been calling for titles to be 'maxed' to be portable. Since that isn't currently possible, let's say 'maxing' = R8.

Now, consider the Norn. Let's say, for the sake of not having that argument again, that completing all the Norn quests and dungeons will get you up to R5. In order to max the title, you then have to grind - or, if you prefer, repeatedly clear the same area. I've heard it cited that clearing Drakkar Lake nets you 4000 points on average. And from my experience, if you don't get a platinum or two out of clearing an area, you've been incredibly unlucky on drops. To get from R5 to R8 requires 80000-26000=54000 points. That's about 13-14 runs - which, assuming 1.5k/run and no 'paydirt' drops, is going to be netting you about 20K - maybe not enough to buy you a set of elite armour, but it will certainly fund a decent supply of consumables if you go that way. And if you're doing that with multiple titles and characters, it's going to put you well on the way towards, if not being uber-rich, then at least decently wealthy.

In short: If you're grin*ahem*killing lots of monsters, you should be accruing a decent amount of wealth on the way. Maybe not as much as through a dedicated farming grind, but you should be getting something.

Personally, as may have been observed in other threads, I'm one of the people who really liked the skill-over-time-spent mantra that ANet seems to have abandoned, and while titles and PvE skills are bad enough now, I'd certainly consider making titles applicable in more areas as yet another nail in that coffin. Consumables, at least, have the advantage that they can be picked up at a title rank that doesn't require gr*cough*repeated clearing of areas using funds accrued from normal play, and since most if not all GWEN consumables affect the entire party, you only need one person to be carrying a couple to be used when bad stuff happens rather than making posession of them a condition for entry.

Oh, and for the record: I have a W/E who's almost two years old and has never found energy to be an insurmountable problem - you just need to be conservative in what you use energy for (using mainly adrenal skills for the warrior side helps a lot). There have even been times - when running a build using Elementalist skills - when I've thought even the extra energy from her Radiant set was redundant. The low energy recharge is more of a handicap than the max energy - a higher max energy isn't going to help much if you're using it faster than you get it back, unless that higher energy a) gives you a chance to finish off your combo with a skill that'll get you some of your energy back or b) allows you to fire off a bunch of high-recharge skills that give plenty of time for energy to rebuild while they recharge.

PS On another side, the only title I'd seriously consider petitioning for a more widespread use for is Lightbringer, and that's purely for in-game consistency: Why is an Apocalypse Titan affected, for example, while a Burning Titan isn't? Or a Tortureweb compared to a Terrorweb? Torment Demons in the Nightfall versus Torment Demons in Halls? However, I think Coraline below has hit the proverbial nail on why they didn't make LB, and other titles apart from Vanguard in HM Ascalon, work in previous chapters.

Coraline Jones · Sep 20, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

I posted a reply which was based on logic rather than emotion, and then I get torn up for it.

The reason why the bonuses that you get don't transfer to everywhere in the game is because the rest of the game has not been play-balanced for those bonuses. If you look at the Norn health bonus, this seems like a lot, but actually it only helps just somewhat in the context of where you use it. I haven't seen a real way to "exploit" the Asuran energy bonus either. It's helpful, but it's not like you can really run wild as the monsters are extremely powerful and you can't solo the area.

As for using consumables, nobody is going to use consumables unless they are really doing badly, and they won't help anybody that's trying to farm (ANet's biggest concern). The new items seem powerful, but if you're going to reach for them frequently, then this means your team or build has some problem that needs fixing. A Powerstone of Courage can fix massive party-wide DP, but it's not going to prevent your party from wiping five minutes later. In any case, there's a HUGE difference between spending money and crafting materials on a one-time use item, and a title that lasts forever.

I don't understand why people can't see that +15 free Energy to any profession in the game--with no negatives or conditions--is not going to cause some kind of drastic, new metagame if it's taken outside of Eye of the North.

tyche7 · Sep 20, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

/signed

I was very disappointed when I found out it didn't do this already (after preview weekend).

GloryFox · Sep 20, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

/Signed,

Balance should only be in PvP not PvE furthermore if ANET does allow someone to use title abilities outside of a respective area you should only be able to select one title ability before you leave town. In this way you can't have both Asuran extra energy then suddenly norn extra hit points in the middle of an explorable area.

Yichi · Sep 20, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Am I the only one that sees a difference between an objection to the stated argument for making the 4 GW:EN titular track skill bonuses available across all campaigns:

and:

If you do not have an objection to what others have or do not have, then what is your objection to the "mediocre players" you are quick to sneer at getting a benefit?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

As per usual, you snip only the things that make you appear to be right and miss the point completely. I gave valid reasons as to why this would be illogical to insert into the game as if looking at it through a PvE standpoint, it does absolutely nothing to benefit your character in other areas of PvE.

The entire "hi i'm mediocre" comment was a sum-up of the argument of which others including you had posted to the fact of well others might want it but can give no valid reason as to why we should get it other than "We might want it." As I said when you can give a truly valid reason as to how it would tie into the rest of the game, im all for hearing it.

We as players would and are not in competition in PvE, but with these title allowing players to gain benefits outside of Eye of the North, would prevent some people from being able to play the game with others. Remember not everyone has bought GW:EN, so therefore would not have access to these titles.

trobinson97 · Sep 20, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

e as players would and are not in competition in PvE, but with these title allowing players to gain benefits outside of Eye of the North, would prevent some people from being able to play the game with others. Remember not everyone has bought GW:EN, so therefore would not have access to these titles.

How exactly would me having say, rank 7 Agent (selected and active in say, HM Ascalon area) prevent someone without the expansion from playing with me?

Bryant Again · Sep 20, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

How exactly would me having say, rank 7 Agent (selected and active in say, HM Ascalon area) prevent someone without the expansion from playing with me?

You're an exception, since you're a nice guy, right? Part of Yichi's point was that it'd probably cause more PvE rank discrimination (i.e. "LFM, R5 Lightbringer only"). However, given the fact that more and more people are going with Heroes, I don't think it'd be entirely applicable.

trobinson97 · Sep 20, 2007, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You're an exception, since you're a nice guy, right? Part of Yichi's point was that it'd probably cause more PvE rank discrimination (i.e. "LFM, R5 Lightbringer only"). However, given the fact that more and more people are going with Heroes, I don't think it'd be entirely applicable.

Ah, then if that's the case, nothing would change.

I wouldn't consider myself a "nice" guy, but I'm decent I guess. I definitely don't subscribe to the idea that you must be 'rank x" or have "x skill" for me to play with you.

Sleeper Service · Sep 20, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

lots of people would like it, lots of those same people are pretty good players.
I dunno about other "vets" but after 2 years playing when it comes to PUGing ill take on anyone not matter how unskilled or with whatever build onto my team as long as im prepared for it (in skillbar or hero loadout).
having these titles being effective anywhere would only encourage me (and probably others) to do it more.
games are supposed to be fun...if you want efficiency go....i dunno, go hang out with people in charge of downsizing.

odly · Sep 20, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

/signed

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Your normal skills will have 90% of them copied into an alternate version of them with the new skills from the different campaigns, and core skills are available to anyone who onws 1 on the campaigns. This argument is basically irrelevant with the exception of PvP.

You're only right ... because he forgot to mention PvE only skills.
- - -

Now, I'm not saying you need these effects to do anything. After all I did get my Legendary Guardian tittle (mostly with H+H) without them.

I think it would be nice to have those effects availlable everywhere as a reward for the work you did.

ps. I'll never max them out myself, because I don't like grind and I'd rather take another character through the game when finisdhed than start over with the same one.

freekedoutfish · Sep 20, 2007, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord dragon

No, what is pathetic is a grinder that believes he needs to be all powerful in order to show off or decide who can play.

Grind for your titles. Take the skills out of the grind. If you want them in other areas, find, let everyone have them without grinding them.

Please remember...

I must not GRIND. GRIND is the mind-killer. GRIND is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my GRIND... I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

Lord what are you on about! Whos a grinders, who wants to show off? I have nooo idea what your on about there! Why wont you accept that you dont have to use these titles, and if you dont want to grind to max them out, you dont have to!

Your just a player who wants everything given to you at max levels. You have to own everything ingame, and your annoyed you cant collect these skills and use them at max levels.

Well tough, you dont need them at max levels and you dont even need them at all! Even at rank 4 or 5, these pve only skills are still very effective! I have no intention of maxing out my ranks and im on rank 8, 7, 5 and 5! Thats till do me!

I dont even have all of the pve only skills because I dont like polymock and i dont like Norn tournaments. But do you see me complaining that I cant get them without playing mini-games I dont like? No!! Because I know i dont need them!

Keep in mind that you cant even get all the pve only skills in GWEN unless you play polymock and the Norn tournemants and drawf boxing. That means playing pvp-ish mini-games to unlock pve skills.

Does that make sense?
Is that far?

I personally dont think so because as I said, I dont like those mini-games! I expect alot of others dont like them, and want all the pve only skills! But Im not complaining... why? Because I know I dont need them!

If I entered a PUG and I didnt have summon flame Djin (because I dont like paying polymock) would you kick me? Ofcourse not, or atleast I would hope not. Why? because when exactly do you need summon flame djin in GWs? You dont!! its just a nice little extra!

PvE only skills do not cause anything to be inbalanced because your not forced to use them ever! Why can you not grasp that?

Things only cause inbalance if Anet forces you to use them, or changes them based on pvp aspects! But Anet is noy holding a gun to your haed and making you use them. There are no aspects in the entire game that require you to use any GWEN pve only skills.

FLOG will you understand that?