Curse

Drinky · Oct 20, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

OK, I'm not sure where I should post this, nor where i should start.

Anyways, my question is about titles, will there be titles in GW2? I really, really hope it wont, why? Titles RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs up this game.

My guess on why ANet introduced titles; they didnt know that people whould play GW as people play other MMO's, they thought people would simply break the game, play some PvP, move one, get the new expansion, beat it, play some more PvP, take a break, new expansion, so on. But it wasnt the case, people started to farm shit, FoW armor for sevral characters, rare weapons even tho a ugly ass skin is just as good a rare skin, grind rank emotes, etc. These people started to QQ about not being able to show off their hundreds, tousands of hours of efforts, titles came, and the game got more fun for some, while it sucked for most. Here is a list of what titled destroyed, atleast for me.

- Ascalon- & Shiverpeak-arena

I could spend countless hours, and have HUGE winstreaks. Me and Mr. Wammo didnt care about getting titles in RA/TA, we simply played it for the fun of PvP without elite skills and fancy armor (tho there was gearers, indeed, but not at the amount as now). We simply had a community in Shiverpeaks, making new characters to play after a while, etc.
It died, why? Gladiator & survivor title, when titles came, these awesome areans stood empty, bcuz dying would kill your survivior title, and winning alot wouldnt give you a glad title. Nowadays these arenas are mostly active in the americans districts nighttime for me, and it doesnt consist of many skilled players as it used to me, mostly dervish tanks that goes 1v1 vs Mr. Wammo and leaves if they get into the same team cuz then he cant 1v1, they also make "teams" and try to sync enter and leaves if they dont get teams, didnt use to be like that.

- Acctully playing the game as you should

Most charchaters from the 1st game, go to droks, get max armor, get runner to sanctum, goes over to the desert, and blabla, you know the deal, im NOT saying people didnt use to do this, but, they do this for survivior title + just having a lvl 20 char with least amount of effort, back in the days, you could acctully get a team in low level missons, now, you cannot, making your way thru prophecis without heroes as you can in NF, using only bad hence with shitty skillbars isnt fun, isnt fun at all. But you cant pug if you going for surivor, cuz your always gonna get atleast 1 person who thinks tanking is aggroing everything in sight and running back to your team.

- Droks arena / TA
It went away, glad title came, so instead of pining your skillbar, making friends, then only playing with friends, getting better, figuring shit out, you could now mesure how good someone was with a title. There was "top" players before titles...

Other title related stuff that sux is, having more then 1 charachter.
In DoA you get dmg reduction + dmg from your LB title, LB title is a big ass grind title, and it sucks. That ANet also made it do something important is even more RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up. It was OK the first time, on my necro, got r6 lb pretty fast, think 2 month of not to active play. But i have more then 1 char, i got 5 chars, all diffrent proffessions, all fun to play with, but i simply cant grind them all, why make a game with lvl cap 20 and offer extreme grind? Wasnt GW supposed to be grind free?

All the other titles that isnt account based is a bitch, like drunkard title, a fun title, would take ages to max for 5 chars, same with sweet tooth, cartograper and yeah pretty much all titles.

That GW:EN is "grind4ever to keep busy to gw2" we already know. So i wont even mention how much of a pain it is.

Incase you didnt notice, people dont PLAY this game anymore, people GRIND this game. Nobody starts a charcahter for the fun of playing with it, they do it for titles/prestige armor.

prestige armor, rare weapons etc should be enough titles is bullshit. And i really hope you come to senses and dont make GrindWars 2. Since i dont see how people would play GW2 over WoW if they like grinding, face it, GW2 will prolly have a shorter lifespan then WoW even tho its already "old".

I am REALLY scared of HoM, cuz if it turns out people get to keep their titles in some way, GW2 is doomed even before its released. In my HoM i got Eternal Hero Of Tyria, Elona and Eternal Hero, as much as i'd like to keep those, its not worth it if it makes title grind in GW2.
Titles are optional, yes, but they destroy for people that doesnt give a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO about titles anyways.

And yes, this is my opinion, my experience if your a PvErs who love grinding LDoA then be it.

Captain Arne Is PRO · Oct 20, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Of course not. GWs was a guinea pig, GW2 will not be trash.

October Jade · Oct 20, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

This post, albeit blunt, makes some good points.

GW2 should be a game. If I want a part-time job to occupy my evening hours, I'll get one that yields a paycheck.

Bazompora · Oct 20, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinky

will there be titles in GW2?

Oh, I really hope there won't be. GW2 should offer new gameplay, not homework.

Antheus · Oct 20, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

GW2 will have titles.

The difference will be that they will have no limit (same as levels, either really high, or no cap at all).

JeniM · Oct 20, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I like titles but i guess i'm in a minority, strange most of my guild enjoy getting titles

If GW2 has no titles what will we do after the missions are all done? PvP? i'd rather not PvP ever as i find majority of PvP'ers obnoxious and rude but thats just personal experiance i'm sure PvE'ers can be like that but difference is in PvE i can choose to H/h and ignore them. Rather pass time doing a title than stepping foot in PvP. I see GW2 having nothing to do once games "complete" i'm canceling preorder

zamial · Oct 20, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

The other side of this argument is:

I like my titles, my fow armor, my prestige weapons, it gives a purpose to play the game forward. ALL the prestige armor/titles/weapons are just that, no better than collectors items. A title proves nothing of how good or bad a player is. It is a goal that a player CHOOSES to obtain. Why do I have to play in a world run by you. Are you a communist that thinks everyone should all have the same skill bar and same armor and noone ever receives anything to distinguish them from anyone else? what a boring game. What you call mindless grinding, I call fun, getting together with my friends and killing the $%&^* out of stuff. I have never been bored playing gw. I don't find any of the game to be boring. I like to be rewarded for my long hours of play over someone that plays an hour a week. If you don't like the game, or you don't have the time, then go get a console game and play that.

Antheus · Oct 20, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

I like to be rewarded for my long hours of play over someone that plays an hour a week

Rather than comparing it to communism, I like to compare it to job market.

Grind = working in factory for 30 years. Then you get a gold watch, and are replaced by a robot.
Skill = Inventing a robot that replaces factory worker, then making a fortune selling them.

Grind = communism, where everyone is the same, where skill doesn't matter, where effort doesn't matter.

Soviet Russia had such economy. Every farm had to produce 17 tons of wheat. No more, no less. So fields were laying unharvested, since harvesting more than 17 tons would be punishable by death. Same for less than 17 tons. Productivity didn't matter, as long as every year, the pre-determined goals were met. People starved to death by millions, while there was food all around.

Alternative to this is the capitalist market. Everyone gets a tiny little something. Then, it comes down to individual to make their way in life.

Ironically, grind-based MMOs are the triumph of marxist ideas, where everyone is equal, where everyone is special, where everyone has part, and where everyone is taken care of. And in those games, where everyone is a hero - nobody is.

It wasn't until GW:EN, that everyone has equal skills (PvE only skills, equal for all classes, depending on same attributes, even items are the same for all professions).

Be careful what you wish for - you already got it.

zamial · Oct 20, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

If you need to compare a game to a job perhaps you are playing the wrong game, as for me. I'll be in gw having a blast PLAYING.

Drinky · Oct 20, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

zamial

you sir, are missing all arguments handed to you.

GW has been grinded so much that nobody really plays it anymore, people grind it, as i said, when was the last time you had a real group with human players, in a low level misson? And if you did, was that group made up of sevral level 20 guildies helping you not die during the misson for your survivor title?

I dont really think that most people that loves their titles even played the game was here during the time before, for some people this game is about grinding titles, and thats all it is, its really no more fun then giving yourself a score point in a notebook everytime you take a piss or go shopping for apples.

And no, nobody wants to take away anyones title at this point, since people with alot of titles have prolly spend about 3k+ hours grinding them. But GW2 is a diffrent game that doesnt need to have the flaws of GW1.

zamial · Oct 20, 2007, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinky

zamial
when was the last time you had a real group with human players, in a low level misson? And if you did, was that group made up of sevral level 20 guildies helping you not die during the misson for your survivor title?

I sir do not do the survivor title, that will make you neurotic.....my main character has died over 10,000 times, some of these were due to the fact that I played a saccer in a minnion factory, rember those? also the last time I puged I had not 1 but 2 guilds join my alliance. btw we had a blast, and still do. Noone carries me, I carry them and extremely sparingly. I have my own game to play. I also have several low level mules that I will occasionally go and play with other pugs or low level allies. In low level missions, just to do it. I also have read a fun Idea in a different post that goes: Make a new charecter and play through the game using only what is dropped for you or collecters items, basically an isolated charecter, now that sounds fun too.

[/QUOTE]
I dont really think that most people that loves their titles even played the game was here during the time before, for some people this game is about grinding titles, and thats all it is, its really no more fun then giving yourself a score point in a notebook everytime you take a piss or go shopping for apples.[/QUOTE]

I have been playing for 24 months, ty. I don't need a score card but hey If they are going to put 1 in the game why not use it, while I'm having fun. Most of the people that complain about titles are to lazy or not skilled enough to get them.

[/QUOTE]
And no, nobody wants to take away anyones title at this point, since people with alot of titles have prolly spend about 3k+ hours grinding them. But GW2 is a diffrent game that doesnt need to have the flaws of GW1.[/QUOTE]

Titles are not a flaw, that is your opinion.

Antheus · Oct 20, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

If you need to compare a game to a job perhaps you are playing the wrong game, as for me. I'll be in gw having a blast PLAYING.

You'll be having a blast doing what bots hundreds times more effectively 24/7.

Do you clear UW and FoW, completing all quests?
Do you collect mini pets?
Do you collect armors?
Play GvG?

or

do you grind titles?

You can grind titles in any game. It doesn't matter what it looks like. ProgressQuest, I hear, is great.

There was a player in AB with r12 faction title. Running a HB/mending wammo, and asking what skills he should unlock to make warrior builds. He got title by doing nothing but FFF for 6 months.

Sure, some like it. But they don't make up the game. It's such players that might as well be playing console games. They don't contribute anything to the MO part of MMOG, and they'll be busy with themselves.

There's a difference between grind and reward.

The reason grind is so popular with subscription based games, is because it keeps people paying with no investment. When people reach the cap, just raise it, and you're done, you have another 3 months of content.

GW2 promises to be non-WoW, while GW is trying its best to become WoW. The only problem with this is - only WoW works for MMORPG (proven, case closed). So either GW2 is WoW, built on top of grind, or it won't work.

Quote:

Noone carries me, I carry them and extremely sparingly. I have my own game to play.

Strangely enough, you won't be able to do that in GW2.

Everything will be a level. And there you'll have someone who has played for 11,000 hours that you will need to carry you through mission.

Everything you claim above will make you "useless" in GW2. You'll be either grinding till you drop, or be inferior. No matter how much Anet claims that won't be the case, this is exactly how it'll work. "No level 70 noobs, 80+ only".

zamial · Oct 20, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

You'll be having a blast doing what bots hundreds times more effectively 24/7.

Do you clear UW and FoW, completing all quests?
Do you collect mini pets?
Do you collect armors?
Play GvG?

or

do you grind titles?

You can grind titles in any game. It doesn't matter what it looks like. ProgressQuest, I hear, is great.

There was a player in AB with r12 faction title. Running a HB/mending wammo, and asking what skills he should unlock to make warrior builds. He got title by doing nothing but FFF for 6 months.

Sure, some like it. But they don't make up the game. It's such players that might as well be playing console games. They don't contribute anything to the MO part of MMOG, and they'll be busy with themselves.

There's a difference between grind and reward.

The reason grind is so popular with subscription based games, is because it keeps people paying with no investment. When people reach the cap, just raise it, and you're done, you have another 3 months of content.

GW2 promises to be non-WoW, while GW is trying its best to become WoW. The only problem with this is - only WoW works for MMORPG (proven, case closed). So either GW2 is WoW, built on top of grind, or it won't work.

Strangely enough, you won't be able to do that in GW2.

Everything will be a level. And there you'll have someone who has played for 11,000 hours that you will need to carry you through mission.

Everything you claim above will make you "useless" in GW2. You'll be either grinding till you drop, or be inferior. No matter how much Anet claims that won't be the case, this is exactly how it'll work. "No level 70 noobs, 80+ only".

TY this entire response is PERFECT, I have been underestimated since day 1 and that is fine by me. It wasn't the entire Trojan army that just marched all over you it was lil' ole me. haha and ya never saw me coming.

I don't spam my junk in trades and I could careless about bots. I don't use a bot program. I learned to play and adapt. FACT: in gw2 you will be able to don some of your greatness on 1 that is less than you and or a pet.

So here we are back to the start. Titles....I like them you do not, but don't ask for them to not be in a game, I like options not the lack of choices.

Winterclaw · Oct 20, 2007, 03:16 AM // 03:16

You know what, I hope that there won't be titles. That way people can do things just for the fun of it and because it is there to do... not because you need to do such and such for a stupid HoM unlock.

Undivine · Oct 20, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Those of you making comparisons between games and economic structures are taking it way out of context.

I ask you this; what is a game? What defines a game and makes it a game? It's rules that all players agree to. Chess is a game because it follows strict rules that both players agree to. It's the rules--the restrictions--that bring strategy to the game. Card games have rules. Sports games have rules. Any form of play you can think of that you can call a "game" has an established set of well-defined rules. In fact, if you take away those rules, then it simply becomes mindless play, like what kids do sometimes. If one does not follow an agreed rule, they're cheating. If nobody agrees on the rules then arguments emerge over what's fair.

In the case of video games, the rules everyone agrees to is the programming itself; the skills, the laws of terrain, the laws of projectiles and line-of-sight, etc. etc. And the ones who establish the rules are the developers.

So if you find yourself spouting rubbish about rights and freedoms with respect to a game, you've missed the point and should really just go write an essay or something to get all that off your chest. In a game, you are supposed to be restricted. Furthermore, you are supposed to be subject to the exact same rules as everyone else. We agree to this because we want to play a game. Don't bring communism into it, because that's such a red herring (no pun intended). While we're at it, let's compare Guild Wars to racism, abortion, or whatever racy topic that'll get people talking.

------------------------------------------

MMOs are different from standard video games because their game play depends so much on the social aspect. With that in mind, it makes sense, and at some point is necessary, for the developer to attempt to manipulate the people. It's all very well to say we should have a right to play how we want, but that is, again, losing sight of the fact that this is a game, and without a little "carrot" to temp people to play a certain way, we have things like the Jade Quarry being completely void of life, or Sorrow's Furnace being used exclusively by farming groups. In a single-player game this is no problem at all, but on an MMO, this means anyone who actually wants to try this stagnant content cannot.

I see Drinky's point. Perhaps one doesn't want to "grind" for titles, but since that's what everyone else is doing, you either have to join in on the grind or play by yourself, which defeats the purpose of playing an MMO. And let's face it, as a single-player game, Guild Wars is a dull game. I don't know if I agree that titles directly cause all this, but I believe the title system is a symptom of ANet's new perspective of their game. Many of us started playing the game since the beta and loved the game for what it was. ANet touted a game without grind. I don't think they would claim that anymore. And those of us who preferred the old way are left in that position; grind like the rest of them, play solo, or quit. Just don't expect the old game again.

I think that just happens with all MMOs as they age, and the developers feel obligated to continue to support it anyway. We'd like to think of MMOs as persistent, but that's not really true. Single-player games end and roll credits. MMOs die slowly and ungracefully.

P.S. Drinky: Don't bypass our swear filters like that. They're there for a reason.

Meat Axe · Oct 20, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Why remove titles from the game when they are entirely optional? The only one that isn't is sunspear, and you only need rank 5 in that title to continue the game. I agree with zamial. Giving players a choice is what makes a game fun.

I actually like titles. I find having a goal improves my gameplay experience. I enjoy it, so I don't see it as a job. If it ever gets not fun, I know that it's time to take a break.

The bottom line is that other people getting titles doesn't affect your gameplay experience. If you find yourself thinking you are forced to get a title, that's not a problem with the game. Don't try to limit other player's choices just because you don't like a specific aspect of the game.

Mohnzh · Oct 20, 2007, 06:04 AM // 06:04

The only titles that I have found that are grind are the new rep titles. Granted, I do not PvP so I don't know about those. Everything else has been either too easy and quick to be considered grind (like LB and SS) or had so much variation or scenery that it did not feel like grind (cartography and vanquishing). I never farm, so I don't ever feel like I'm working or anything like that, even though I do farm in some console games and still enjoy that part. Remember the original role-playing games like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior? You HAD to farm every few levels just so you could survive the next area. The creators had to make it that way or the game wouldn't take more than 5 hours. I've never experienced that have-to-farm sensation in GW. I only have one set of highend armor, and I only got it because I had accumulated the money while vanquishing.

The basic assumption is that to get a title you must grind. This is simply untrue. You CAN grind to get a title, but grinding is all a matter of perspective. One person may see vanquishing as a major grind, whereas another person sees it as exciting as you have to create new builds for multiple areas and you get to experience every type of enemy the game has to offer. The one who vanquishes will most likely not consider it a grind, whereas the one who does not vanquish will call it a grind. In regards to titles like LDoA and Survivor, those titles were not created to encourage people to do it. They were created as rewards for those who had found ways to do them when the devs thought it was highly unlikely (survivor) or even impossible (LDoA). I don't have either (they weren't around when I made my character), and would not pursue them even if I could. Why? Because it would seem like grind to me. But coming up on IVI, I do not have a single max title that I have felt like I grinded for.

In the end, you are right. The majority of players do what YOU consider grinding. Apparently, they call it fun. If the majority of players want that sort of game, who do you think NCSoft and ANet will cater to? Being a business, my money is on the larger market.

Bazompora · Oct 20, 2007, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meat Axe

Why remove titles from the game when they are entirely optional? The only one that isn't is sunspear

Wrong! Title tracks such as Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Lucky, Lightbringer, Luxon, Kurzick, etc. have been imposed on the playerbase: the 3 firstnamed reduce the chance to break salvageables (after the devs lowered succes rate by 25%, in order to grind your way back to the former level) and lockpicks, while the latter make themselves indispensible for farmers trying to stay within the economical top.

In GW2, titles better not be linked to any advantages at all, or the statement "grind = optional" will be as hollow as it is in GW1 right now.

BlackSephir · Oct 20, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

God, I hope not, or only visible for you.
Titles are what created elitism both in pve and pvp.
NO MOAR

Quote:

Why remove titles from the game when they are entirely optional?

No, if you want to do DoA people will pick the one with higher LB rank because it gives profits. Which is retarded.

Meat Axe · Oct 20, 2007, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazompora

Wrong! Title tracks such as Treasure Hunter, Wisdom, Lucky, Lightbringer, Luxon, Kurzick, etc. have been imposed on the playerbase: the 3 firstnamed reduce the chance to break salvageables (after the devs lowered succes rate by 25%, in order to grind your way back to the former level) and lockpicks, while the latter make themselves indispensible for farmers trying to stay within the economical top.

In GW2, titles better not be linked to any advantages at all, or the statement "grind = optional" will be as hollow as it is in GW1 right now.

What, because you get benefits from titles, you consider them compulsory to get? I can see now why you want to get rid of them. That mentality is ridiculous. Just because you get rewards, you don't need the titles to play the game. I finished Prophecies without wisdom and treasure hunter, and I'm currently a bit over halfway to getting guardian. I finished Factions without Luxon or Kurzick. I finished Nightfall without Lightbringer. So I don't consider any title compulsory.

Basically, although titles in no way limit your ability to play, you still seem to think you need them. Since you don't want them, you want them taken out. Sounds like a bit of jealousy there.