Curse

lyra_song · Nov 12, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Ladies and Gentlefolk.

Ok. I think we've reached the point of saturation where all the points have been said and we're just going around in circles over and over with these arguments in the other 2 threads concerning making titles account based.

ENOUGH. Lets move forward.

I think, a compromise would be a good & proper solution.

I propose a different idea. And since this is a different idea, i think it deserves its own thread.

This concerns specifically & only PVE skills in Nightfall and GWEN. This does not concern other titles.

The PvE skills in Nightfall and GWEN can be leveled via normal gameplay. However, you will not reach the top rank through just playing the game to the end, you need to grind for it.

With me so far? *looks around* So. It seems to me, THIS is the problem at hand.

My proposal.
The titles will behave as the attribute to the PvE skills....UNTIL YOU BEAT THE GAME.

AFTER you beat the game, the PvE skills disconnect from the titles and you will have their maximum attribute.

The outcome is, PvE skills remain tied to PvE actions, however, there is now no more grind attached to it.

Example:
My paragon plays through Nightfall, and gains Sunspear and Lightbringer Rank through normal gameplay.

Before Abbadon her SS is lvl 7 and her LB is 4.

After Abbadon, the titles remain the same, but the Sunspear skills and Lightbringer skills are now available at FULL POWER.

-----------------
I think this is a much more reasonable, sensible and definitely fair request. It applies to ALL players the same way and uses a very very simple and fundamental goal, which is simply to beat the game and removes extraneous grind, which is the main problem to begin with.

I hope you /sign. If you /unsign, please post your reasons.

Thanks!
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Isileth · Nov 12, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

hmm thats an interesting idea actually.

Im going to /partsign it

Make the title effect max out as well and you get a full /signed
This way there is no disadvantage at all for not maxing it once you complete the game, but it also doesnt effect the KOABD title which has been a concern (A small one but hey).

Darkobra · Nov 12, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I think this is a perfect compromise.

Alicendre · Nov 12, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Totally /signed

I love this idea, when Anet first talked about PvE skills I thought they were linked to attributes...

arcanemacabre · Nov 12, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Wow, that's a compromise? It sounds like it favors those of us complaining against the grind more than the other side (that which you belonged to). Not that I'm complaining. I'm fine with it, of course; it just seems like an 'easier' way out.

I guess the only complaint I have is that I doubt Anet would implement something like that.

EDIT: To be honest, I'd rather the skills/effects be completely removed from the titles altogether, and perhaps their attributes tied entirely to what has been completed in the story. So, yeah, completing the campaign/expansion they're in would give maximum benefit, like you suggest; while the titles remain as they are, character based, and as a sole reward for the grind.

BlackSephir · Nov 12, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Anything to show grind a big "gtfo" sign
/signed

Sleeper Service · Nov 12, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

well i have to say i quite like this.

this and the Unlock PVE-only TITLES for other Characters are two ways that i would personally be content with.

It raises one issue which im sure will crop up (unfortunately).

why would anyone grind their way to max title rank one the game has been beaten (other than to display) Would that be a sufficient "reward"?

You see I find absolutely nothing wrong in rewarding grind if its done right. The current KOABD reward take (rainbow phoenix) i think is appropriate so maybe using that system in the form of another unique pet or perhaps cape(?). something non transferable that can be accessed once the maxed out title is displayed in HOM.

IE: something that offers no inherent advantage over other players and thus is pure silver lining.

Of course i am NOT suggesting koabd should be account based. (just to keep that clear).

Perhaps ive gone off track and is a different subject.

in any case.

/signed

tyche7 · Nov 12, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

/signed -- I used to play guild wars on average 2-3 hours a day. Now that Gw:EN came out...with all the grind...I now play 2-3 hours a week. HUGE difference b/c I HATE grind. I have about 17 chars (toons) and I like them all equally well..I don't wanna have one I play all the time and the others I play only ever few weeks or months. I like variety but having to grind it out on all the chars when I've already done it on one or even 2 of them..makes no sense to me.

lyra_song · Nov 12, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Wow, that's a compromise? It sounds like it favors those of us complaining against the grind more than the other side (that which you belonged to). Not that I'm complaining. I'm fine with it, of course; it just seems like an 'easier' way out.

Ive stated many times before, that i understood both sides of the argument and people kept telling me i was misunderstanding. lol.

I chose to side with the status quo because of how the PvE titles behave and how its designed.

Its a compromise to me, because the titles remain linked to PvE action and PvE characters. The PvE skills also remain linked to PvE action.

But at the same time, its the grind that is removed. And thats really what is the problem, i dont think it was ever about the titles.

I have no problems with removing the grind from the PvE skills and keeping the titles purely cosmetic.

Quote:

EDIT: To be honest, I'd rather the skills/effects be completely removed from the titles altogether, and perhaps their attributes tied entirely to what has been completed in the story. So, yeah, completing the campaign/expansion they're in would give maximum benefit, like you suggest; while the titles remain as they are, character based, and as a sole reward for the grind.

Same idea, different details, but ya, we agree on the point, which is good!

I'm so happy so many of you like my idea. ^_^

Sleeper Service: I think having another maxed title to add to the KOAB track is enough incentive to max out the title, even after gaining full power on the skills.

arcanemacabre · Nov 12, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Ive stated many times before, that i understood both sides of the argument and people kept telling me i was misunderstanding. lol.

I chose to side with the status quo because of how the PvE titles behave and how its designed.

Its a compromise to me, because the titles remain linked to PvE action and PvE characters. The PvE skills also remain linked to PvE action.

But at the same time, its the grind that is removed. And thats really what is the problem, i dont think it was ever about the titles.

I have no problems with removing the grind from the PvE skills and keeping the titles purely cosmetic.

Exactly! That's pretty much how I've felt about it. I have no problem with the titles being there, which is why I've never complained about the titles themselves. They are a great way to satisfy those who like to work for them, and I understand the 'need' for them to exist for that purpose. I just disagree with the reward of a title and an actual mechanical advantage for that grind. The title's fine, just remove the mechanical advantage - and there are ways, like this idea, to keep the advantage and apply it as a reward for something other than grind.

That other thread is kinda muddled up with different views and ideas from both sides, and when countering arguments, it's hard to tell exactly which argument you should really counter to get your point across. This thread, and that other new one show that there are different approaches and solutions to this issue. Now the question is: Does Anet really consider it an issue enough to warrant a solution?

EDIT: Just wanted to add, there is the difference in this thread vs. the other one: only the reputation/SS/LB titles are mentioned. This leaves out Treasue Hunter and Wisdom titles (though they are covered in a different large suggestion thread). I'm not terribly concerned with those two, personally, only because they don't give and strategic mechanical benefits. For that reason alone, I couldn't care less that Joe Titlegrinder has a higher percent chance of salvaging without breaking or retaining lockpicks. They don't offer up higher health/energy/damage/whatever. Also, with regards to the Kurzick/Luxon title, being already account-based, I'm fine with the link to PvE-only skills for that very reason. Well, that and the fact that there are ways to raise it without grind - i.e. PvP.

This suggestion offers a proper reward to a proper challenge/playstyle. It makes sense. Well done, Lyra

wu is me · Nov 12, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Its not without is charm.

Its good that it makes PvE more equitable, and that was one of the issues addressed in the other thread, that Im guessing this is a "compromise" for.

But the fact remains that your proposal still doesn't address every other aspect of gameplay changes that the "other" proposal, would bring about to be effective as a compromise.

Yea, its a good start, but its not effective as a substitute.

Winterclaw · Nov 12, 2007, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I'm going to disagree with this because it solves the wrong problem, even if it is a creative solution. To me, the PvE skills and how good they are, are rewards for grinding up your titles. Unless the games require a title, what's the point of making any progress towards your titles if you can easily get all your PvE skills maxed by beating the game once. So without grinding, I could have a lot of pve skills maxed out for farming purposes. In a way, that defeats the purpose of making you gain ranks in them to begin with and tying that to skills.

If you don't want PvE skills to be linked to grind by maxing them on beating a game, I don't see why you just don't make it so they always have a fixed level they work at. I mean if I'm not going to farm the RoT after I beat NF, having maxed lightbringer skills then is pointless. Tieing them to grind is a pain in the butt. So if you really want to remove grind from PvE skills, give them a fixed effect.

Alicendre · Nov 12, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

If you don't want PvE skills to be linked to grind by maxing them on beating a game, I don't see why you just don't make it so they always have a fixed level they work at. I mean if I'm not going to farm the RoT after I beat NF, having maxed lightbringer skills then is pointless.

GWEN PvE skills are useful even when you aren't in GWEN. (except maybe for Light of Deldrimor)
And for NF PvE's, Sunspear/Luxon/Kurzick skills work outside the RoT...

Winterclaw · Nov 12, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Your point is?

mazey vorstagg · Nov 12, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

/unsigned

If there's no incentive to max titles, who's going to max them?

The skills are linked to titles for a reason, to encourage replayability and to make lore sense. It's like the Ebon Vanguard saying "well you're not that special, only an agent, but we'll let you summon our super elite special assassins anyway".

I'm only rank 5 on my rep titles (all I did was HM and NM and all dungeons in NM) so I'm not being elitist here, but this seems silly.

lyra_song · Nov 12, 2007, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wu is me

But the fact remains that your proposal still doesn't address every other aspect of gameplay changes that the "other" proposal, would bring about to be effective as a compromise.

Yea, its a good start, but its not effective as a substitute.

Its a better solution for a specific problem, rather than a blanket change that the other thread proposed. Because i think specific titles need to be handled differently.

At least we can organize the arguments.

As ive said, this relates only to SS/LB and GWEN titles tied to PVE skills. Since these titles, imo are the only ones that are the real concern.

arcanemacabre · Nov 12, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

The skills are linked to titles for a reason, to encourage replayability and to make lore sense. It's like the Ebon Vanguard saying "well you're not that special, only an agent, but we'll let you summon our super elite special assassins anyway".

They're skills. They are supposed to represent how good your character is at using them, not how well known or respected they are through various organizations/groups/races/whatever. It never made sense for them to be tied to those titles in a lore sense from the beginning. So what, because the Vanguard respect me a little more for clearing their lands of various baddies for a n'th time, I can make something bleed just a little longer with Deft Strike? How does that make sense in the least?

noneedforclevernames · Nov 12, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

If your action were to be put into effect then what about those who busted there asses to max out the 6 PvE Skill titles? Do they have to get screwed over your laziness?

/not singed
If this were to be put into effect I would be very angry at Areanet.

Isileth · Nov 12, 2007, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

/unsigned

If there's no incentive to max titles, who's going to max them?

No one maxes protector do they? No one bothers with cartographer.
Oh wait...they do.

Making people who dont want to grind weaker isnt the right way to go about encouraging people to max titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

The skills are linked to titles for a reason, to encourage replayability and to make lore sense. It's like the Ebon Vanguard saying "well you're not that special, only an agent, but we'll let you summon our super elite special assassins anyway".

I'm only rank 5 on my rep titles (all I did was HM and NM and all dungeons in NM) so I'm not being elitist here, but this seems silly.

But it doesnt increase replayability.

I only have 5 chars, many have a lot more. But there is no way Im going to max it on all 5. But since I like to play different chars im at a disadvantage because im weaker.

It also doesnt make lore sense, just because im more respected doesnt explain why I suddenly do more dmg, or my conditions last longer.

And lets face it, I think the different groups are going to be more than happy enough that you finished GW:EN right? I mean why would they like you more than after you just saved the world?

That doesnt make sense lore wise!

Quote:

Originally Posted by noneedforeclevernames

If your action were to be put into effect then what about those who busted there asses to max out the 6 PvE Skill titles? Do they have to get screwed over your laziness?

1) What do those players loose? They still have their maxed titles.
2) It isnt laziness, I only have 5 chars but based on the most effecient rep farming it would take 140 hours to max all 4 rep titles on all 5.

If I dont want to spend 140 hours of pure grind my characters are weaker. GW was advertised as a game where skill>time.

Spending 140 hours just so I can do as much dmg as someone else sure doesnt seem like skill>time to me.

bilateralrope · Nov 12, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

/unsigned

If there's no incentive to max titles, who's going to max them?

Go ask the people who are maxing out the drunkard and sweet tooth titles why they are doing it.

/signed.