Curse

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Why, tell me from a balance perspective, not a physiological one, since we don't have fireballs shooting from our arms in real life either. You're the one lacking real arguments here, and we don't need arguments to prove our points at all, we just need to prove you wrong... though you've yet to argument anything, actually.

This isn't about physiological. Stop bringing up that nonesense. I have addressed it already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Why do people keep bringing up the bullshit about how we shoot fireballs from our fingers as illogical? In real life its illogical. But this isn't real life. This is Guild Wars.

In the rules of the game, the fireball cannot pass through wall and requires line of sight since its a projectile attack.
All projectile attacks follow this rule. Wands, spears, bows, or projectile spells.

All fleshy creatures in the game leave corpses. Animals are fleshy creatures. Pets are animals. Therefore, pets must leave corpses. Thats an established rule of the game.

Changing it and making an exception specifically only to player pets is arbitrary and illogical.

My arguments are based on established gameplay mechanics and functionality.

Gameplay balancewise, I already mentioned my position.

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What about the wards? Why not make wards NOT OVERLAP.
LoD is also a significant part of this build, hence its been nerfed.
And the aoe hexes
How about the fact that ritualist secondaries are better at healing than ritualist primaries.

Sounds to me like theres a lot problems.

Instead of examining all the pieces of this good synergetic (but boring) build, we get a nerf to one or two pieces of it, thinking thats gonna fix the problem. Bandaid nerf.

Its a bad nerf. I care about PvP and I care about skill balance. But i do not care for stupid changes like this, when the big problems are ignored altogether.

Necros abusing the pets is a result of a combination of a few things:

-Soul reaping - with a minimal investment in energy, you get a large amount of energy gain from two dying minions.
-Pet DP - Since pets gain DP in PvP, they can die and res very quickly with minimal cost (hammer pressure DPS can afford a blackout when the pet dies, since Adrenaline gain is not stopped by the blackout)
-The pet mechanics in general allow fast ressing without needing to be upclose to a pet, or a long casting time, or even long downtime between comfort pet casts.

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Also, I lol'd at your info there: "Character: Welcome to GW Guru. Have a seat and popcorn and watch the QQ show!"

*sits back and reads your posts*

It's meant to be ironic and funny. I'm glad that's not amiss on you.

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Lyra i don't think you can get your message across without touching on the reasons that motivated this change for Anet and why such changes are bad.

then again that has already been explained.

IF you guys want a balance perspective go and argue your case (pvp and pve should be linked) on the other thread.

the only reason this thread exists is because separating topics/issues has been...enforced.

There are NO other answers to this thread (that i can think of...) than "pets are fleshy creatures, fleshy creatures leave corpses", "Pet based builds and MM builds no longer have same synergy", "it makes no sense from the game perspective"...

if you DONT want to accept those arguments then fine.
nevertheless they are valid.

the changes as such don't really affect me, but on the principle of it....its just wrong.

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Well Sleeper, ive been trying to point out, that this is a bad nerf because its the wrong one. And my other reason being that it doesn't fit the gameplay rules.

The target build being nerfed has MANY synergizing parts.

Pets are just one part of it. Rangers are another part. Wards are another part. Ritualist healing is another part. Soul reaping is another part. Minions are another. LoD is part of it.

Ive said before that Anet needs to rethink Soul Reaping and the Pet system altogether, since apparently they can't handle it when the two systems work in perfect synergy together.

moriz · Nov 15, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

if that synergy works to the detriment of the game, then it should be removed. the pet+minion synergy is the point of greatest weakness for that particular degenerate build, and changing that aspect has the least amount of impact elsewhere in the game. therefore, the nerf is good.

anyways, i enjoy the QQ show you are putting up lyra_song. please continue so i can get my lulz.

gremlin · Nov 15, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Am I the only one here that wishes arenanet cut out all the supposition as to why something was changed by coming out and telling us.

Something along the lines of

We have changed xxxxxx skill because xxxxxxx was happening and unbalancing the game.

That at least would get everyone clear about what has happened in a change and why.
We can still have a good argument about it of course.

Since they know the reason a change was made It doesnt take a lot of extra typing for them to let us know.

Snow Bunny · Nov 15, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Am I the only one here that wishes arenanet cut out all the supposition as to why something was changed by coming out and telling us.

Something along the lines of

We have changed xxxxxx skill because xxxxxxx was happening and unbalancing the game.

That at least would get everyone clear about what has happened in a change and why.
We can still have a good argument about it of course.

Since they know the reason a change was made It doesnt take a lot of extra typing for them to let us know.

We all know exactly why they made pets unexploitable.

This thread is simply a QQfest of bad arguments by B/P rangers who need their mm's and beastmasters who enjoy "roleplaying."

Lol.

raven214 · Nov 15, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Oh wow. So many people are saying "It doesn't make sense".

It's a game. So many things don't make sense, it's unbelievable. And yet, this time it interferes with your farming builds, so it's suddenly bad.

Such an old, overused argument. Of course it's a game. But there are basic rules about life and death, i.e., take too much damage and you die, a dead fleshy creature leaves an exploitable corpse, etc. etc.

But now this is no longer the case. Pets are apparently no longer fleshy creatures once tamed. And that makes no sense.

Also, what exactly is wrong with rangers having a place (Tombs) where they could be sorta the "star" and have fun with a build (B/P) that, while perhaps making it "easier", still required skill and especially coordination?

As a ranger, it was already hard enough to find a group for some missions. The last thing I need is one less reason for rangers to be used. Sitting around watching people request necro's, ele's, monks, and obs tanks gets real old after the first hour or so.

And if this nuke-nerf was really for PvP, why not change it in some other way that only affects PvP, such as mentioned above? It's not like there's a 1:1 translation between PvE and PvP skills as it is (PvE-only skills, anyone?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Am I the only one here that wishes arenanet cut out all the supposition as to why something was changed by coming out and telling us.

Something along the lines of

We have changed xxxxxx skill because xxxxxxx was happening and unbalancing the game.

That at least would get everyone clear about what has happened in a change and why.
We can still have a good argument about it of course.

Since they know the reason a change was made It doesnt take a lot of extra typing for them to let us know.

/agree

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if that synergy works to the detriment of the game, then it should be removed.

I agree. I didn't say the synergy shouldn't be removed.

What ive said is that this change is the wrong one to make.

My proposal is to completely revamp SR and pets altogether. But thats another thread.

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the pet+minion synergy is the point of greatest weakness for that particular degenerate build,

I don't agree. I still think the problem lies in Soul Reaping and its behavior, particularly with minions (net gain energy).

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and changing that aspect has the least amount of impact elsewhere in the game. therefore, the nerf is good.

least amount of impact is purely subjective.

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anyways, i enjoy the QQ show you are putting up lyra_song. please continue so i can get my lulz.

You need to learn the difference between whining and arguing. I enjoy shooting down nonsensical posts from people without any basis to talk from, especially after its been repeatedly shot down.

MithranArkanere · Nov 15, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

"Update Latest game update was on Tuesday, November 13 (2007)"

You can't try if a skill something is good or bad in less than one day.
Go to PvP and check if does more good or not.

The skill testing do not mean that the change is definite.

"Because it mess the build I've been using for ages" is not a reason to revert a change, is areason to MAKE it. There are many other builds to be done. Probably people do not try them because they stick with the ones existing. Skill changes are there to prevent that.

"It's not logical" dos nothing with the balance. There are many 'not logical' behaviors in game mechanics. There are creatures that look Fleshy and are not (Like some plants), and some that do not look fleshy at all, but they are (Like destroyers).

"Cuz me wants 2" is not a reason, it's a rant...

Why this change? Because being exploitable and counting for corpses, they were used to be killed. Without that, pets are something to be kept alive, not cannon fodder.
Want a PvE explanation? Gods give humans the power. Melandru do not like you killing your own pet. So she decides to prevent people from desecrating animal corpses. See? Done.

First, try the game with changes for some days, give feedback in forums and the wiki. Feedback, not rants. Nor rants hidden as 'reasonings'. One day is way to soon to quickly go to the suggestions thread and whine, since they are not finished with the changes.

You miss that some changes are to test and get info to make different changes later:
We will be evaluating the following changes over the course of this week. Additional adjustments may be made during this time period.
They are testing changes.

So.... what's the reason to revert the change without even having time to test it? Because the "lazy farmer" spring sprung: "Oh, noes! My working eternal build"
Do like everyone else does. Find other builds.
They prevent the solo green farmer? Who cares?
They prevent the 55HPs? Let's find other things.
They prevent the 130Dervishes? Monsters can be killed anyways.

That's how GW works. Change. Adapt. Evolve.

Alicendre · Nov 15, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by raven214

Such an old, overused argument. Of course it's a game. But there are basic rules about life and death, i.e., take too much damage and you die, a dead fleshy creature leaves an exploitable corpse, etc. etc.

But now this is no longer the case. Pets are apparently no longer fleshy creatures once tamed. And that makes no sense.

Maybe it makes no sense but in that case, any skill change makes no sense.
I mean... Why should some action suddently take more energy, is harder to use, or less effective while the person who did it never change?
Why did soul reaping got nerfed? Grenth didn't got weaker...

Quote:

And if this nuke-nerf was really for PvP, why not change it in some other way that only affects PvP, such as mentioned above? It's not like there's a 1:1 translation between PvE and PvP skills as it is (PvE-only skills, anyone?).

PvE-only skills do not exist in PvP. Balancing PvP while not affecting PvE would be awesome and that's why PvE skills were made, but they are awful as they are linked to ranks and not attributes. And doing a PvE-version of every normal skill would take too much time, "Anet is working on GW2 ya know?"

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

You can't try if a skill something is good or bad in less than one day.

But....this isn't a skill change.

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Go to PvP and check if does more good or not.

The skill testing do not mean that the change is definite.

Yes I agree.

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"Because it mess the build I've been using for ages" is not a reason to revert a change, is areason to MAKE it. There are many other builds to be done. Probably people do not try them because they stick with the ones existing. Skill changes are there to prevent that.

But thats not one of the reasons to revert it back. Strawman.

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"It's not logical" dos nothing with the balance. There are many 'not logical' behaviors in game mechanics. There are creatures that look Fleshy and are not (Like some plants), and some that do not look fleshy at all, but they are (Like destroyers).

Another strawman. Names, physical look, lore, animation, color, its all irrelevant to the logic of game mechanics. We could use all graphical placeholders and numbers instead of names and it wouldnt matter.

What matters is how the gameplay elements behave. Because thats where the mechanics and rules are built in.

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"Cuz me wants 2" is not a reason, it's a rant...

Yes that is a rant and its not a reason.

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Why this change? Because being exploitable and counting for corpses, they were used to be killed. Without that, pets are something to be kept alive, not cannon fodder.

Yes, ive explained this already. I explained why its changed. Ive also explained why its a bad change that doesn't address the cause of the problem.

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First, try the game with changes for some days, give feedback in forums and
So...

This feedback is my initial reaction and based on my understanding of PvP, PvE and gameplay and game design in general.

I normally am willing to try out skill changes to see if its ok. But something this flagrantly idiotic needs to be stopped from day 1.

Quote:

You miss that some changes are to test and get info to make different changes later:
We will be evaluating the following changes over the course of this week. Additional adjustments may be made during this time period.
They are testing changes.

So.... what's the reason to revert the change without even having time to test it?

No. It is a test. We understand. Thats why we want it changed when they are done testing. Understand?

Quote:

That's how GW works. Change. Adapt. Evolve.

Yup.

MithranArkanere · Nov 15, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Ok. Not a skill change. A mechanic change. But it's not the first one.
Evade->Block.
Armor Cracking.
Primary attributes (Fast Casting, Soul Reaping, Spawning Power)
Etc
Eh... I have no memory for more.

Some of them where definite. Some of them were not. But all had periods of testing. Because in a game with so many skills in 10 professions, there's only one way to see how something's work. And it's testing it.

You don't even know if they are making this change to get information so other changes can be made, like they keep doing with Soul Reaping.

Bankai · Nov 15, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

What about the wards? Why not make wards NOT OVERLAP.
LoD is also a significant part of this build, hence its been nerfed.
And the aoe hexes
How about the fact that ritualist secondaries are better at healing than ritualist primaries.

Sounds to me like theres a lot problems.

Instead of examining all the pieces of this good synergetic (but boring) build, we get a nerf to one or two pieces of it, thinking thats gonna fix the problem. Bandaid nerf.

-Wards already don't overlap, as far as I know. Unless you mean both foes and melee. But it's ok if those overlap imo.
-LoD was the primary defense against this build and its enormous pressure. Nerfing it only made the build stronger.
-AoE hexes aren't a big problem at all with this build
-The fact that rit healers are better as secondary as primary is not something that makes the build stronger. The change to monk healers with monk secondary isn't extremely bad.

Izzy is trying pinpoints exactly what he can do to nerf the build. I'll explain later on why the pets and their corpses are so important for the build, but I have to go now.

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Ok. Not a skill change. A mechanic change. But it's not the first one.
Evade->Block.
Armor Cracking.
Primary attributes (Fast Casting, Soul Reaping, Spawning Power)
Etc
Eh... I have no memory for more.

Some of them where definite. Some of them were not. But all had periods of testing. Because in a game with so many skills in 10 professions, there's only one way to see how something's work. And it's testing it.

You don't even know if they are making this change to get information so other changes can be made, like they keep doing with Soul Reaping.

Yes its true, this could just be a test.

This is perhaps a way to test the build without having pets as part of the equation, to see if it was pets alone that made the build overpowered.

Perhaps. But we cannot be sure, since they didnt put it in the notes.

Even then, i do not like this change because i dont think its a good one. And im gonna express my dislike and show my reasoning. Even if its temporary, i do not enjoy it.

Why don't you argue with me and change my mind instead of trying to undermine why i have an opinion in the first place.

ThisIsNi · Nov 15, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

But....this isn't a skill change.

But it makes you change your skills

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But thats not one of the reasons to revert it back. Strawman.

According to you...

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Another strawman. Names, physical look, lore, animation, color, its all irrelevant to the logic of game mechanics. We could use all graphical placeholders and numbers instead of names and it wouldnt matter.

What matters is how the gameplay elements behave. Because thats where the mechanics and rules are built in.

The only reason you believe this is because you had the precedent to draw on. If the game had started with pets not leaving corpses, your entire basis of argument is gone.

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Yes that is a rant and its not a reason.

Which you still haven't provided? Other than your own personal opinion?

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Yes, ive explained this already. I explained why its changed. Ive also explained why its a bad change that doesn't address the cause of the problem.

AGAIN, according to you. Evidence?

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This feedback is my initial reaction and based on my understanding of PvP, PvE and gameplay and game design in general.

Okay, closer....

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I normally am willing to try out skill changes to see if its ok. But something this flagrantly idiotic needs to be stopped from day 1.

Oh wait, nevermind, you lost it. Why is this "flagrantly idiotic"? Because it ruins your precious B/P team?

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No. It is a test. We understand. Thats why we want it changed when they are done testing. Understand?

Yeah, but shut up until then. They haven't announced that they aren't going to change it back yet, have they?

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

All I do is repeat myself on this thread. Im getting bored now...im just gonna post links to my older posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThisIsNi

But it makes you change your skills

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=98

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According to you...

Well obviously its according to me. Im the one who wrote that post. Just because its been there for a long time isnt a good enough reason. Me and Mithran agree.

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The only reason you believe this is because you had the precedent to draw on. If the game had started with pets not leaving corpses, your entire basis of argument is gone.

If Pets in the game behaved like fleshy creatures with the exception of not leaving corpses from day 1, I would have protested from day 1 for them to change it to make the gameplay consistent to behave like fleshy creatures or make them immune to bleeding/disease etc so they are no fleshy creatures, or make them non-fleshy before you even captured them.

Its not about PRECEDENT. Its about gameplay mechanics and design.

If the gameplay is consistent and obeys its own rules, i will be satisfied.

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Which you still haven't provided? Other than your own personal opinion?

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

1) All fleshy creatures bleed, they get diseased, they get set on fire, etc.
2) All fleshy creatures leave exploitable corpses.
3) Animals are fleshy creatures and therefore bleed, get diseased (see 1)
4) Animals are fleshy creatures and leave exploitable corpses (go kill the next lvl 5 wolf you run into)
5) Players pets are all animals

Thats not an opinion. Thats a fact. This is how the gameplay mechanic of pets and fleshy creatures behave.

If you want to dispute it, go ahead and try. But thats how the gameplay mechanic works.

The following is my opinion.
Since this change goes against these factual game rules, i do not think it is a good change.

That, feel free to disagree.

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AGAIN, according to you. Evidence?

Of course its according to me! Its my opinion. But its also backed up by the fact that the spirit/hero/thumpway build is NOT JUST ABOUT PETS LEAVING CORPSES.

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Its a bad nerf. I care about PvP and I care about skill balance. But i do not care for stupid changes like this, when the big problems are ignored altogether.

Necros abusing the pets is a result of a combination of a few things:

-Soul reaping - with a minimal investment in energy, you get a large amount of energy gain from two dying minions.
-Pet DP - Since pets gain DP in PvP, they can die and res very quickly with minimal cost (hammer pressure DPS can afford a blackout when the pet dies, since Adrenaline gain is not stopped by the blackout)
-The pet mechanics in general allow fast ressing without needing to be upclose to a pet, or a long casting time, or even long downtime between comfort pet casts.

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Oh wait, nevermind, you lost it. Why is this "flagrantly idiotic"? Because it ruins your precious B/P team?

From page 2 of this thread.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...6&postcount=33

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Yeah, but shut up until then. They haven't announced that they aren't going to change it back yet, have they?

I have the right to express my opinion just as you have the right to express yours. I wont tell you to shut up but i will ask you to come up with something new to say or add.

lakatz · Nov 15, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

All I do is repeat myself on this thread. Im getting bored now...im just gonna post links to my older posts.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=98

Your logic is impeccable... pure deductive reasoning. However, there are other ways of thinking or approaching thinking. It's very clear your emphasis is on the rules of gameplay. Others in this thread are looking at the issue of reality vs non-reality or coming from other directions in thinking without being able to get their head around the concept of 'rules of gameplay.' That's why you're getting so many strawman retorts to your logic. And that isn't likely to change... so your decision to quit repeating yourself (futilely) is a wise one.

It's likely that either Gaile or someone else with an understanding of gameplay mechanics has read your posts and taken your very valid argument under advisement. And they're the ones who really count because they're the ones evaluating the changes and their impact on the game and the community and will ultimately decide to keep or revert the Nov 13 changes.

Epinephrine · Nov 15, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

I fail to see the problem with the nerf.

Some people say "leave the pets with exploitable corpses, fix necros instead".

Ok, so pets leave corpses, we fix all necro spells referring to corpses so that they read "non-animal corpses", we fix skills like IWAY to only count allied non-animal corpses and presto, what's the difference?

None. If it bugs you, pretend there's a corpse that you just can't exploit because of the lack of a soul or something. It's easier this way, and has the same effect as if you simply tweaked all the skills to read "non-animal corpse".

If it bugs you then you were using pet corpses, which they don't want, or you have an inability to imagine a set of magical rules that could account for the difference, in which case I suggest you get an imagination.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 15, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

Holy cow! Where'd you get all those attribute points??? That's a lot more than I have (and I'm ascended, of course). If I had that humongous amount of attribute points, I could make Splinter/Barrage work with a pet too (without it being watered down).

Those are with runes added.

Base would be : mks 8-9, ws 7, bm 6-8, exp 8, cha 10-11

People really don't realise just how far you can stretch skill points when you save 72 of 200 points by only pumping 2 skills to 10 instead of 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saphatorael

Why, tell me from a balance perspective, not a physiological one, since we don't have fireballs shooting from our arms in real life either. You're the one lacking real arguments here, and we don't need arguments to prove our points at all, we just need to prove you wrong... though you've yet to argument anything, actually.

Also, I lol'd at your info there: "Character: Welcome to GW Guru. Have a seat and popcorn and watch the QQ show!"

*sits back and reads your posts*

The balance is secondary to this argument, and you don't refute it at all if you simply mention balance changes.

A game works by a consistent set of rules for a reason : so that players know how to play a game.

I can easily provide you with a list of games with rules with so many exceptions that you can sit for months trying to learn all the rules and their various exceptions and only start to grasp the basic mechanics of the game. Suffice it to say that this is a bad thing, and it's certainly a very bad thing in a game where you want people to be able to change their play style on the fly.

If I can't poison non-fleshy creatures, and the game tells me that, am I ever going to bring poison arrow to attack a skele-boss? The answer is no, and for a good reason. If Anet suddenly changes it so that some skeles are able to be poisoned, that is a bad thing because the player now has no idea as to how the mechanics work.

How are you supposed to create builds when you can't play the game because there are no discernable rules which the game follows?

So yeah, it IS a fantasy game, but as with all games, and indeed everything touched by human interaction, it is also inherently related to the principles of cause and effect, and breaking that system is a major no-no. Intelligence can be defined as an ability to successully replicate (internally - i.e. in one's mind) the cause-and-effect relationship inherent in the universe.

Like I said earlier, I've left other games because they started pulling these kinds of stunts, and if this kind of rubbish continues, I'll stop playing GW too, and not simply because it spoils a particular build combination.

Div · Nov 15, 2007, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Some people need to chill out and read this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10220294

In particular:

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Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Nerfs are good.

They "renew" the game. For free. How is that bad?
I enjoy GW because having the best 8 skills + best usage == win. I don't care if I have to change those 8 skills every month or so.
They force me to puzzle with skills. I enjoy this. Free enjoyment. How is that bad?