Curse

gremlin · Nov 14, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Well if its for pvp reasons and I say again If its for pvp reasons then yet again I ask for a seperation of pvp and pve.
What is so difficult about making changes in one without affecting the other.
There are plenty of global effects in the game, simply have global effects that alter the way skills work in pvp.

However if the changes are made because of a pve player exploit I guess we will have to live with them.

It aint logical as the usual rule is
Its alive
Now its dead
It leaves a body
I have heard of game areas where a party take pets just so they can provide an instant undead army.
I am guessing thats the real reason for the nerf.

arcanemacabre · Nov 14, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Pets receive DP in PvP only.

Pets should not leave an exploitable corpse in PvP only.

That is all.

Hailey Anne · Nov 14, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

That would, at least, leave B/P runs more or less intact (orders necro can BR/BiP the MM) while still closing whatever apparently unknown pvp exploit is waiting around.

this really isnt that hard on the B/P runs. almost all of the foes leave corpses here. So you wont get the couple at the start big deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

Ever done a B/P run as MM?

The point is that minions die *really* fast there. Using pets as fuel was the way to keep enough minions up to protect the other players. I fully expect that until this change is reversed, the MM in the team just got bumped out of the roster.

I have been MM in tombs MANY times and this really wont have a huge impact. It will go just the same well better actually since barrage got buffed.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 15, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailey Anne

this really isnt that hard on the B/P runs. almost all of the foes leave corpses here. So you wont get the couple at the start big deal.

Start of the run, or start of every skirmish? In my experience my pet often dies multiple times in any particular skirmish. I tried to leave it dead long enough for the necro to make use of it, but that wasn't always possible.

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I have been MM in tombs MANY times and this really wont have a huge impact. It will go just the same well better actually since barrage got buffed.

The boost in barrage damage is far outweighed by the nerf that splinter weapon suffered.

Edit : seems some on-topic stuff was lost, so I'm reposting it :

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

To the point, I understand the PvPers' PoV. I understand Lyra's PoV. I don't understand your position that B/P builds need pet corpse exploitation. I don't believe it's vital to a B/P or B/P team build. And my ranger goes out B/P [edit] whenever possible.

I think you're missing the point.

The BP/MM tomb run build is an example of a combo that was adversely affected because of the update. Given that this build was in place for well over a year without any apparent exploits (we've already got one claim for a superior build from another poster), and that no one can provide an example of how a necro could exploit the pet corpse thing, what's the harm in leaving it in?

As a side note : Splinter B/P is indeed viable in my experience. If I'm facing mobs that group well, I'll always take B/SW/P on my skillbar. And I always try to heal my pet when in a tomb run. Blackouts are annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

IMO, the fact that people are so upset over this chance proves that the change was needed.

Well, why don't we remove all monk elites? If people get upset over that, does that prove the change was needed? /sarcasm

I'll admit that I have a soft spot for tomb runs. When they first came out, it was one of the few places that, as a ranger, you were actually wanted in a farming team.

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People are talking about dropping pets all together in certain areas, just because they no longer leave corpses.
I mean, hold on a second here.....What's more important? The pets themselves or the corpses they leave behind when they die?

They both serve as meat shields. As the pets die, the MM creates more minions which keeps everyone safe from the grasps of insanity.

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If the answer is the latter, then theres a problem here. That just smacks of exploit right there.

Because someone actually synergised two events? Usually this is called "a good build". For instance, the old earthshaker/aftershock W/E combo. Just because someone thought up a way to use something that Anet did not specifically think of beforehand while designing the skills does not inherently make it an exploit.

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If people drop pets in certain areas because of this, then the change was justified, because that would prove that pets were being exploited for their corpses.

And if we nerf monk healing so that they can't heal, and people stop playing monks, does that mean monks are an exploit?

Again, no. Just because a change makes something unviable does not show that the change needed to be made. You have to show that the combination was overpowered and that there was no alternative that could similarly replace the combination, and no reasonable way to counter the combination. We've already got one person claiming that his heroes managed to run the tombs faster than the average B/P run, frankly I think that's proof right there that the B/P run was not overpowered.

Full Metal X · Nov 15, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Everyone QQing about MM's getting nerfed because pets don't leave corpses in B/P teams makes me laugh. Drop your worthless player MM and throw Olias in there, hes a million times better at MM then any player lawlz.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 15, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

As I've said, it's just the most readily available example. It's certainly not the worst effect (that would be the loss of internal-consistency).

raven214 · Nov 15, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

1. It's an action fantasy RPG, realism has nothing to do with its mechanics.

2. It's a change to resolve PvP issues, you'd have to ask a PvPer for details (I play PvE pretty much exclusively, with a necro main).

1. I love this argument. Yes, it is a game. But it is set in a quasi-realistic world... i.e., there's basic rules about life and death. In it, living animal creatures leave (exploitable) corpses when they die. Or at least they used to. Now it has to be qualified: they do, unless they are a tamed pet. How does that make any sense in any way?

2. I hate when changes for one side (PvE/PvP) screw over something on the other. It's like, hey ANet there's this part of the game called PvE. As long as both parts are connected skills-wise, changes to one affect the other. Do they not realize this, or do they just not care? This change screws over a fun build (Tombs B/P) for no good reason.

Let pets have their corpses back! (at least in PvE)
/signed

lakatz · Nov 15, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Elrien...

I'd love to know how you make SW and your pet work well together? How do you distribute your points?

pumpkin pie · Nov 15, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

2. It's a change to resolve PvP issues, you'd have to ask a PvPer for details (I play PvE pretty much exclusively, with a necro main).

I try to find this exploit but don't seems to be able to locate it, can someone point the direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

Everyone QQing about MM's getting nerfed because pets don't leave corpses in B/P teams makes me laugh. Drop your worthless player MM and throw Olias in there, hes a million times better at MM then any player lawlz.

Although I agree AI are much better then human players most of the time, but B/P groups are about the last group type that players still play with other players. except PvP off course. nah, don't drop your MM player, a little "human contact" is still sometime good. although often time it is un-tolerable when 2 team members decide to start a typing-quarrel-fest .... ps: i am not the mm in a b/p group, i am a damn good puller if you trust me.

gremlin · Nov 15, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

Everyone QQing about MM's getting nerfed because pets don't leave corpses in B/P teams makes me laugh. Drop your worthless player MM and throw Olias in there, hes a million times better at MM then any player lawlz.

Really ?

Want me to tell you how many times Olias has been down to just the Flesh Golem and he gets it back up as some other animation

Or the problem with Death Nova where olias decides when there isnt even a fight to randomly kill off his army with it

Boy you know some really crappy MMs

You have my sympathy for having them inflicted on your parties.

However if you leave out the Golem and the animation destroying skills olias is moderatly compitant at keeping 6 or 7 animations going.

He will not keep 10 going and he will not balance the types or use jagged bones constructively.

There seems to be a bit of a downer on MMs recently but they are still a very effective pve build.

You have 10 blocking warrior types that can explode disease cause bleeding etc not to mention every reduction of the enemies ranks is an increase in party size.
Jagged bones keeps recycling them and the veratas Gaze and Aura skills can steal the enemy undead which is good fun.

I use MM SS as well as blood builds on my necro and wouldnt give any up.

Ascalon Runner · Nov 15, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

I say instead of pets leaving no corpse, have all PvP arenas placed under a spell that renders all pet corpses unexploitable for the entire duration of the match.

Lobo_the_great · Nov 15, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

The reason for this change is that SWAY used to run 2-3 thumpers with pets and when one of these pets died a necro would use animate bone minions for the SR benefit than the thumpers would res the pets and they would die again sometime later leaving another corpse for the necro to make minions and it would get easier and easier for the pet to die thanks to DP eventually what would happen is the necros would get this army of minions up and they would do damage as well as giving the necros a ton of energy when they died.

pumpkin pie · Nov 15, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lobo_the_great

The reason for this change is that SWAY used to run 2-3 thumpers with pets and when one of these pets died a necro would use animate bone minions for the SR benefit than the thumpers would res the pets and they would die again sometime later leaving another corpse for the necro to make minions and it would get easier and easier for the pet to die thanks to DP eventually what would happen is the necros would get this army of minions up and they would do damage as well as giving the necros a ton of energy when they died.

doesn't doing that, raising a minion armies requires time and skill at play as well, especially in a PvP situation? the thumper have to take care of ressing the pets and also at the same time fight the opposition and the necros could be under attack anytime?

if your group cannot fight them before they raise an army, or at least minimise their chances of a hugh army, does that even qualify you to win any game at all in a PvP arena?

just a thought...more of a question actually. what I mean is if your PvP group is good you will be able to interrupt necros raising minions and thumper ressing thair pets and at the same time while they still don't have the minion army take down the whole team?

just a though.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 05:06 AM // 05:06

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