Curse

Malaguard · Nov 14, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechronius

As someone has already not-so-mildly pointed out, this would lead to a power creep, which seems to be at odds with what they are trying to do with skills in general. Which is at odds with the PvE only skills.

Needless to say, things are rather confusing right now in general.

Warriors primary is _broken_ imo.

Monks primary is... negligible. The only reason you see monks still in PvP is because of the runes you can put on monk armor so healing and prot gets up to 13+. Otherwise, you'd see E/Mo as the new healer or N/Mo (which you already do see sometimes). As it is - most good prot monks RELY on their secondary to stay in the fight.

Ele primary (as others have pointed out) becomes quickly worthless.

Dervs primary maybe SHOULD include a 1% per skill point to cause spells against derv to fail. Maybe then there would be a derv in group PvP besides Melandru.

I'm not talking about game-wrecking stuff here. I'm talking about fine-tuning the primary.

Warrior Strength = Broken
Divine Favor = Completely Replaceable
Energy Storage = Becomes worthless after a few minutes of fighting, unless the player can manage his energy well (GoLE, Attunes, Etc).

And lack of mesmers... Mesmer... Mesmer? has anyone seen Ferris Mesmer today?

thedeadwalk! · Nov 14, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Warrior: I would change the % to block to damage reduction (or minus damage instead). I think that fits in better than blocking, which I would put on Expertise.

Elementalist: Sounds good.

Assassin: Sounds good.

Ranger: As said, I would put blocking on here, in place of the speed boost. It goes in line more with surviving and Expertise, and they seem to lack good blocking skills that don't have a lot of downtime.

The other ideas I generally don't like, or they shouldn't be touched (excluding Soul Reaping which wasn't really given any discussion). Otherwise, I like the idea of primary attributes being more defining

arcanemacabre · Nov 14, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Eh, I still like the idea of making Energy Storage cause 1 point less exhaustion for every 3 ranks in ES. The other Primaries are fine as they are, IMO.

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 14, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

The other Primaries are fine as they are, IMO.

Except Ritualist's Spawning Power, which might as well be No Inherent Effect.

Malaguard · Nov 15, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Eh, I still like the idea of making Energy Storage cause 1 point less exhaustion for every 3 ranks in ES. The other Primaries are fine as they are, IMO.

Updated main post to include this. Also a nice idea.

Magikarp · Nov 15, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

the only primary i feel is kinda left out is the warrior. i know im a bit biased, but it would feel so nice to physically see and know how much extra damage im doing with my primary sometimes.

i'd like to see something like..

for every point in str, your weapon does 1% more damage, and 1% armor penatration. for every 3 points in str, you take 1 less damage while attacking.

idk... just an idea lol...

and Holy trolls way too much... nuff said.

ensoriki · Nov 15, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

>.> I expect flames but

1 problem is that powers up Non Dagger assassin's

Scythe sins would then get +6 damage...Armor ignoring! at 12 crit.. but scythe sin's dont just run 12 crit from what i've seen

so +7 damage from a scythe sin

Armor Ignoring, Scythe skills also add damage.
Scythe has highest maximum damage..

So lets see

12 scythe mastery, enables 100% of scythe damage I think.

So a crit would be 42x2 (is it?) 84 damage or so vs 60 armor I believe + 7 thats 91 damage a critical hit, + skills a scythe assassin will do 100 damage with skills, a skill that inflicts deep wound that gives atless +9 damage = 200 damage flat.
then the 91 damage hits >.> ...those hits are aoe too (in pve)

My math has to be wrong (because I don't have a full grasp on this stuff)... 13 Scythe (though a sin can't ge that) is 102% of maximum damage?

regardless....seems like your trying to make Non Dagger sins own...

Its great if you make it dagger only, but Moriz and Mokone wouldn't like it.

and warrior strength

+5 hp for every 4 ranks in Strength

= +20 hp total

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Except Ritualist's Spawning Power, which might as well be No Inherent Effect.

Spawning Power is just fine. There are a lot of linked skills, many of which are pretty good, and it has two inherent effects (now) which alone aren't much, but both enhance the main strengths of the Rit. Strength for the Warrior has a worse inherent effect than either of the effects SP has, but more useful linked skills (plus the added bonus of extra armor with Sentinels at 13 Str). Overall, I'd say they're balanced with each other, and with the other primaries.

I would have agreed with Fast Casting, but with the added bonus to Signet activation speed, it's pretty powerful now.

Critical Strikes, Expertise, and Leadership are all excellent e-management, and work perfectly for the classes tied to them. Don't see any reason to buff these at all.

Divine Favor and Soul Reaping are both broken, and have been since release. This is due to how they work, rather than any kind of over- or under-powered use. They are balanced, they just need a re-working that they will likely never see.

Mysticism is somewhere between Leadership and Strength. The e-management it provides is really limited, but it has that secondary, equally limited effect of health gain. The best part is the linked skills, like Strength. Because of that, it's balanced, and fine as-is.

So, I think that compared to all the primaries and how they balance out, ES is the worst. It could stand to have either a buff to the inherent effect, or some more useful linked skills. Either way, I think it needs a buff.

Nyktos · Nov 15, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Energy Storage is fine. Look at how valued +5 energy mods are. Look at how much more popular wand/focus or spear/focus is over a staff, despite providing only +2 energy. I'd say that a primary attribute that makes your GoLE better AND provides +30ish energy is well worth it. As good as Soul Reaping, Divine Favor, or Expertise? Probably not. But that doesn't make it bad.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyktos

Energy Storage is fine. Look at how valued +5 energy mods are. Look at how much more popular wand/focus or spear/focus is over a staff, despite providing only +2 energy. I'd say that a primary attribute that makes your GoLE better AND provides +30ish energy is well worth it. As good as Soul Reaping, Divine Favor, or Expertise? Probably not. But that doesn't make it bad.

Agreed, but I didn't say it was bad, just the worst of all the primaries. I'm only asking for a slight buff to balance it with the other primaries, not anything severe. Like I said, even a few more useful skills would be nice. Just something. It feels like people only choose Elementalist for the increase in power with runes, than for the primary. Considering you can get a high energy pool by simply getting some +15/-1 equipment. Sure, you could slap that on an Ele for an insanely high energy pool, but you don't need an insanely high energy pool, even for Ele skills.

ensoriki · Nov 15, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Wow this is just like cooking
Almost everyone is making a different recipe
for Imbalance.

Stealthc · Nov 15, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Adding an innate block% or spell failure% to any primary attribute would be perhaps one of the worst updates.

Every other source of block can be removed by ending a stance or removing an enchantment etc. But this would be unremovable, almost forcing you to use one of the very few "target foe cannot block" skills.

Spell Failures would also fall under the same area. Its fine to have your spells not connect because of interrupts, spell breaker etc but to have your spells fail because the computer came up with a number would be insanely frustrating.

Kale Ironfist · Nov 15, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

So a crit would be 42x2 (is it?) 84 damage or so

42x1.4142 (sqrt2)=59.4

A critical hit is only +20 damage rating.

DreamRunner · Nov 15, 2007, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Warriors primary(str) is extremely bad. Its undoubtedly the worse primary. Why? It only works on attack skills. But warriors can do enough damage and can soak up enough damage with armor already.

They're also very good skills in strength such as Rush, Bullstrike, Enraging Charge and Flail.

Elrien Silentfoot · Nov 15, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Because I'm lazy, I'm going to assume that your average warrior is running around with 10 strength.

From the table in the above link :
AL100 -> Damage reduced to 50% of total
AL90 -> Damage reduced to 59.5% of total

Essentially that 10% armour penetration is giving you a ~20% damage bonus across the board. It's *really* not as underpowered as you guys seem to think.

KlutzySpy · Nov 15, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Timer doesnt matter much for the necro anyway, and the second idea only helps MMs..

how about some HP gained per rank in soul reaping?

thedeadlyassassin · Nov 15, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Don't want to seem mean, but you kind of sound like a noob that doesn't know how to play. All the primarys are completely fine the way they are, and there's things called skills that follow the primary attribute that help "block" attacks, that help heal the party, that help give energy ect ect.

Guild wars would really suck if monks got even more lame with more healing, especially Divine favor with LoD or Aegis to the whole team, without any skills involved.

Malaguard · Nov 15, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeadlyassassin

Don't want to seem mean, but you kind of sound like a noob that doesn't know how to play. All the primarys are completely fine the way they are, and there's things called skills that follow the primary attribute that help "block" attacks, that help heal the party, that help give energy ect ect.

Guild wars would really suck if monks got even more lame with more healing, especially Divine favor with LoD or Aegis to the whole team, without any skills involved.

Do not presume to interpret my posts for me and for others. You aren't smart enough.

Claiming that my suggestion for Divine Favor is a "LoD" and "Aegis" blows it way out of proportion. And EVERYONE who is reading this thread knows there are skills that provide all the things you describe and have been suggested. So basically, you have just regurgitated what we all know. This thread is about primary attributes getting a non-overpowering but UNIQUE buff. ESPECIALLY where it is needed. (Warrior, Ele, Monk). Quit trying to sound smart by hyjacking a thread. You are wasting valuable oxygen that should be used for the other thinking primates who are reading this thread (stop typing, it makes you breath harder).

And while I am responding - to another previous post:

Claiming that a primary attribute linked to block (warrior) or spell-immunity (dervish) is game imbalancing. As much as a 16% block is hardly game-breaking (for warriors only), and same as a 16% spell immunity for dervish (not that dervs primary needs anything to my knowledge). Realistic PvP numbers would be 10-14% block on warrior (or damage reduction from others suggestions). More than enough to throw some doubt into the spike. You'd see more spiking VARIETY - pressure, hexs, armor ignoring spells, etc. It just would add a unique ability to the warrior class. And - there are spells which completely remove block (necro and assassin come to mind). And there are unblockable skills. Etc Etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrien Silentfoot

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Because I'm lazy, I'm going to assume that your average warrior is running around with 10 strength.

From the table in the above link :
AL100 -> Damage reduced to 50% of total
AL90 -> Damage reduced to 59.5% of total

Essentially that 10% armour penetration is giving you a ~20% damage bonus across the board. It's *really* not as underpowered as you guys seem to think.

To my knowledge, this only affects base weapon damage. The game mechanics for damage can be looked up at any of the wiki sites - but it goes like this:
Long calculation applied to base weapon damage and then add skill damage on top.

Net result?
WARNING - IF YOU ARE A PERFECTIONIST - PLEASE REPOST THE ACTUAL NUMBERS - THIS IS GENERALIZED DAMAGE CALC:
Sword warrior versus a level 60 target on his hardest hit (critical) does 22*sqrt(2) (about 1.44)... let's just say it's 30 (don't want to pull up calculator). 30 damage, and he has 10% armor penetration - so MAYBE his hit gets boosted up to 32 or maybe as much as 34 damage. Add weapon skill damage on top of that (+flat amount based on skill points). Versus a warrior, with 100 armor level, the sword damage is cut in half right? Boom - Base sword damage on a critical is now 15 or so. Armor penetration? 2 or 3 points more? Maybe? Point being - there's no point in taking Strength besides meeting insignia reqs or for a specific skillset.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

>.> I expect flames but

1 problem is that powers up Non Dagger assassin's

Scythe sins would then get +6 damage...Armor ignoring! at 12 crit.. but scythe sin's dont just run 12 crit from what i've seen

so +7 damage from a scythe sin

Armor Ignoring, Scythe skills also add damage.
Scythe has highest maximum damage..

So lets see

12 scythe mastery, enables 100% of scythe damage I think.

So a crit would be 42x2 (is it?) 84 damage or so vs 60 armor I believe + 7 thats 91 damage a critical hit, + skills a scythe assassin will do 100 damage with skills, a skill that inflicts deep wound that gives atless +9 damage = 200 damage flat.
then the 91 damage hits >.> ...those hits are aoe too (in pve)

My math has to be wrong (because I don't have a full grasp on this stuff)... 13 Scythe (though a sin can't ge that) is 102% of maximum damage?

regardless....seems like your trying to make Non Dagger sins own...

Its great if you make it dagger only, but Moriz and Mokone wouldn't like it.

and warrior strength

+5 hp for every 4 ranks in Strength

= +20 hp total

A critical is max damage multiplied by sqrt(2) or roughly 1.44 (I think).

Somethings to consider = scythes and bows attack more slowly.

Speccing in non-daggers also removes some of the synergy - and is not "Viable" in team pvp (it's more of a gimmick). But it's fun for PvE. In RA, whatever... that's all random anyhow. But you won't see people mobbing up like idiots in PvP. If you do, they deserve to get scythed and AoE nuked.

Point being, it's not a total boost to non-dagger sins. It's just an overall sin boost. And possibly unneeded - especially with way of the master. Critical already is quite nice, and sins get a DUAL benefit from their primary - energy and increased damage. Warriors get... oh yeah. Slight damage boost. Not as much.

Main reason I posted tweak to sin is because i play one, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings to see a slight boost. Not needed, but hey, I'll claim a little selfishness in my thread... :-)

Stealthc · Nov 15, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

And while I am responding - to another previous post:

Claiming that a primary attribute linked to block (warrior) or spell-immunity (dervish) is game imbalancing. As much as a 16% block is hardly game-breaking (for warriors only), and same as a 16% spell immunity for dervish (not that dervs primary needs anything to my knowledge). Realistic PvP numbers would be 10-14% block on warrior (or damage reduction from others suggestions). More than enough to throw some doubt into the spike. You'd see more spiking VARIETY - pressure, hexs, armor ignoring spells, etc. It just would add a unique ability to the warrior class. And - there are spells which completely remove block (necro and assassin come to mind). And there are unblockable skills. Etc Etc.

So every single Warrior creature in PvE then gets 10-14% block chance? Do you want every single team to bring Rigor Mortis? Or do you want every single warrior, ranger, paragon, dervish and assassin to just leave the game?

Retarded idea.

Strength being a shitty primary attribute is balanced because there are plenty of great skills in the Strength line. 99% of Warriors in GvG bring one of Sprint, Bull's Strike or Rush

Malaguard · Nov 15, 2007, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealthc

So every single Warrior creature in PvE then gets 10-14% block chance? Do you want every single team to bring Rigor Mortis? Or do you want every single warrior, ranger, paragon, dervish and assassin to just leave the game?

Retarded idea.

Strength being a shitty primary attribute is balanced because there are plenty of great skills in the Strength line. 99% of Warriors in GvG bring one of Sprint, Bull's Strike or Rush

And many of them spend no points on strength at all... (no need).

Rush is a cancel stance and to help catch a target, bulls strike is a snare/KD.

Strength = May as well be renamed No Attribute.

That's the point I'm getting at.

Maybe the block % is too high... maybe it's unneeded, maybe it should be a damage soak like others are saying. I do not disagree with all that.

But just saying that the passive effect of the Strength attribute is OK - On THAT point... I will disagree with you.

Also, in PvE... if I remember correctly, MOST of the damage that kills stuff is not the direct physical stuff. It's a blend - interupts with damage, spells, AoE, indirect (splinter weapon). Etc etc etc.

My suggestion may be a little "out of the box". But the idea that Strength is Broken... that's probably right "in the box" of standard thinking.