Curse

System_Crush · Dec 27, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Another mob control type is a Lure, mind control type. Skill of that type is design to make mob come attack the target you want them to attack (be it yourself or themself), and not attack the target you don't want them to attack. Its a bit tricky, as Mind control, while easy to do in PvE, don't translate well into PvP, but the skill need to be of same effect. One mean that was deviced were skills which make you want to attck them. Hex like, it would have certain negative effect till they attack you (things like : suffer -5 energy regen to 10 seconds. effect end prematurely if you damage the caster) In that sense, it might work in PvP as well as PvE. Other mind contrl type are bit more tricky to do (like need to temporary change team, and such), but could be intersting to see or play.

I like the idea actionjack, It's possibly the only real way to implement forsed attack into pvp.
However you could abuse the heck out of it, if an effect is powerfull enough to make someone need to attack then it would also be powerfull enough to make them lose a batle if you prevent them from attacking that person(both in PvE and PvP, imagine shiro or the lich king with that much energy degen chained by 4 party members to keep it active while the others recharge).

Also if it ends on 1 hit then a dervish would be good as unafected by it as they hit lots of foes at the same time, or you could hit the caster just once and then go back to your previous target, this would not really hinder people that much exept assasins or axe wariors as they have many conditional attacks so they have to stick to a sertain order in wich their attacks are executed(not all assassins and axe wariors though, there are ways to get around it, but eviscerate axe wariors generally all suffer from it I guess)
Adding the requirement to keep attacking for the duration(or until caster dies) would be more effective as it afects all professions somewhere evenly. But couple this with spitefull spirit and you have another way to abuse the heck out of it.

I don't think you could ever force a player to do something and not have it unbalance either PvP or PvE, but that is really up to Anet.

I shouldn't just dispute, its bad maners to refuse somone's solution and not offer an alternative.

Protection monks can already chanel damge dealth to target ally to themselves, I think this could be taken to a new level.
Stiking at Soulshex
The next X attacks of target foe damage you instead of their intended target, up to a maximum of X damage.

Threterous Windshex
For X seconds projectiles from target foe strike you instead fo their intended target, you have an extra X AL against damage recieved this way.

Also I guess I could steal the way this is handeled in AO, if you want to be targeted there you make yourself more dangerous, by using a mongo or a other significant damage increaser like fullauto.
For a short time you become a priorety target to mobs or enemy players because you need to be debuffed as fast as possible, sadly even though this works wonderfully in PvE it has a little less effect in PvP,
That is because running away from a mongo'ing enfo untill they stop,
or dodging during a fullauto will have the same effect.

Aditionally to this(and this is on support to your movement controll) enfo's grow larger while mongo'ing, asside from a visual effect this makes it easier to click them.
When a agent uses a hiding buff he also shrinks making him harder to click.

While those size effects can be simpely overcome by players using autoselect(not GW) or tab selecting, in GW you can't walk trough other players this means a player increased in sise would be able to block pathing more eficiently, and a smaller one could just pass though someones legs.

In ao this effect is quite extreme, enfos can grow over 2 stories tall and agents can become the size of a chiwawa, that would be greatly over the top in GW and 50% size increase would definatly make a large diference.

A quick resum:

I think forcing a player to do whatever would be unbalancing.(restricting cetain actions is diferent though)
Though you shouldent force a player to attack you; making them damage you is ok,
as this requires no action on their part, therefor I opt for a damage redirection heavy profession.
Making a profession that shows when it is about to become more dangerous to you, makes you want to attack it before it can do so, this could be coupled with size increses but does not really need to.
I like the Movement controll actionjack sugested.

BahamutKaiser · Dec 28, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Forced attacks are unbalanced. Consider all the abilities in the game which drasticly punish enemies for executing certain actions, the effect of the hex or enchantment causes unnattentive players to suffer significant, almost damning consequences, or and even attentive players have to choose between taking serious reprocusions or being disabled/diswaded. With Manipulation of enemy actions, you can force a foe to strike you wile you have Shield of Judgement on, or force a foe to attack wile cursed with Spiteful Spirit, easily overpowering your foes.

But that isn't half the difficulty. This is a Strategy game, above all else, strategy is the deciding factor of the game. This game revolves around player skill, their skill in selecting builds, coordinating with allies, playing effectively in one word, choice. With manipulation spells that remove control from foes, particularly human controled foes, you essentially take away the single most important factor from your foe, control. And this is unacceptable, because if a player cannot control his character, he isn't actually playing. To go into battle and be force to attack certain foes who would obviously be primed to overcome damage or punish their assault, you basicly hand over the game to build instead of actual combat control, it simply isn't acceptable.

You can snare a foe, stop him cold, disable his abilities, punish his actions, interrupt his spells, steal his source of power (energy, adrenaline, otherwise), and a great deal of variety to sabotoge your enemy, all of these disable your foe, but when you take away control, you basicly remove them from the game, and they are just watching their character be subjected to whatever the enemy decides they will do.

Controlling another player, whether it be foe or allie, is unacceptable.

Brandon1107 · Dec 28, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

*cough cough wards cough*

actionjack · Dec 28, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Some reply....

I think we can all agree that forcing player's movement or control is a bad bad thing. Thus the suggestion is to lure them to do an action, but not force them.

In term of movement control, rather, its control the enviroment or landscape to effect their movement, and not take the control fully away from them. Creating a tempoary wall would be something of that group.

A ward, as well as other cripple-speed effect skills, are part of it. But there are still things such thing can not do, such as making the foe group togeter (with restrictive movements) so an AoE might do its best impact, or force them away from a soft target, etc. Wards could also use some expansion too (and there were few good suggested one that take a greater emphesis on wards/runes/aura/tombstone mechanics)

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On another note.... the recent trend seem to suggest two popular classes... A Fist Fighter, and a Remote Controler (controling a Golem or Puppet). Anyone have good function, playing mechanic, or playing style, for them?

Brandon1107 · Dec 28, 2006, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Puppetmaster:

You have to also take in mind the lagginess of how a controller/puppet thing would be. Imagine how much power and how complex it would be to control your character as well as a foe. That is way out of league
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Fist Fighter:

I thought of this but then I have to cross it off the list. We already have daggers. We would have to make gloves (which would probably be the weapon) less damage than daggers. That makes them very weak. It would hard to implement on this withough taking the ideas of a warrior or assassin. This is out.
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Other:

On every expansion so far we have had ideas from core classes that was only used a little, and tweaked. Ex. Shouts, Enchantments, Spirits, ect. They are going to use (most likley) something that is only used a little, like Wards, Inscriptions (runes),Auras, and maybe even more summoning, and or forms, from the dervish.
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Things that are not on any proffession at all:

If A-Net becomes more creative I bet they can pull of something that is not implemented from other classes. Maybe, just maybe, they can use a class that manipulats sun and moon. (that is an idea from other people) Maybe they can use something that summons forms of other things. (Druids, ect.)
Maybe, they can use new weapons like, quarterstaff, instruments, mace, ect. Then instead of combos they can tweak in stuff like summoning elemental things. (ex. walls, mud) I am sure they will figure out something new.

BahamutKaiser · Dec 29, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

I think the entire idea of a puppet master is bogus, a lesser idea than a summoner, and no reason to go with a lesser idea.

As for actual familiar movement and control, it would have to be limited, but as we can already direct up to 3 henchmen as well as our own character, it is hardly unavailable.

Notably, there are some techniques on expansion classes which are adaptations of exsisting mechanics, obviously they arn't going to make a class which has nothing but totally original features, but at the same time, they all offer some totally unique abilities and techniques, this is an acceptable balance of exsisting effects, redeveloped effects, and original effects, it isn't a limited to the scope of certain abilities.

As for the whole bit about controling, there is an obvious difference between obstructing, disabling, and controling, they have very unique meanings, and used improperly, they describe improperly.

Wards and Crippling do not control anyone, they are movement obstructions which block and hinder foes. Likewise, there are no hexes which force you to take a certain action, and no effects either, they all punish you for certain actions, or disable the use of certain actions, they do not control your character. The language is defined so people can communicate their thoughts accurately and others will recognize what they mean, improper use is the failure of the user, not the receiver.

Take the time to accurately describe your ideas, don't waste time trying to debate the correction of your flaws.

System_Crush · Dec 29, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I just wanted to add something on the pathing obstruction, in Prophesies in the jungle there is a mb called entangleing roots.

These create walls at pre-scripted locations, when a player crosses those locations.(i.e 1 of the party gets in; wall closes rest of party is behind wall)
As soon as you kill the mob the wal disapears, the wall only blocks pathing you can still shoot arrows/staffs and cast spells through it.

The roots are not even a nucance(unbalancing mobs generally are) the only problem with implementing a wall skill is that scripts decide the place and angle of the wall, all effects in GW have a target or a round area of effect, a wall or pathing obstruction would likely need to be a line like form, otherwise it might couse signifigant problems. The deciding of an angle is not something GW gameplay mechanics are used for.
I though of 2 ways to solve that problem.
The game can calculate a path between 2 points having a skill that drops a beacon like thing that stays for X seconds, if you drop anotherone in the area a wall forms beween the 2 points.
And a circular wall could be placed around one's self by an area effect, trapping as may foes as possible in a ring with you as possible, if time runs out or if you doe the wall disipates again.
That way you put yourself at risk to trap your foes in a pen.

I don't thing there should be a skill that puts a wall around target foe, that would mean trapping him wiht a single skill, you eather should have yourself at risk or have to heavly cordinate with other party members to trap your foes.

This would allow much greater use fo the archidecture of the ighting areas, and because you should not be able to maintain a wall infinatly and because many spells are unhampered by blocked pathing, the palyers amking the walls would still be plenty killable.

Manfred · Dec 29, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Mmh, even a temporary block is very powerful. Imagine the ganking possibilities if 2 druids could pin an entire team into a passage for 30 or more seconds. The big difference from snares such as Deep Freeze s that you don't have to be vulnerable to use it, and it COMPLETELY stops them, as opposed to just snaring. Movement speed has a floor of 33% for a pretty darn good gameplay reason. Perhaps attackable walls would be non-unbalanced.

draxynnic · Dec 30, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

I'll go through and extract ideas for the list that have cropped up since my last update at some time when it isn't ten to midnight local, but people seem to have moved towards discussing a couple of specific class concepts, which is something I was trying to avoid in this thread. Could you move this discussion to a new thread please?

BahamutKaiser · Dec 31, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

wow, it's hard to think of something new wile looking at all these ideas, I guess the easiest way to come up with another unique ability is to think of an identity I like and come up with an original way for it to work.

I have to say, I am rather satisfied with this thread, I don't think I will ever have to hear, "there arn't any new features to add to the game", ever again. And if I do, I will give them this link.

Tempy · Dec 31, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I am not sure if this is a good place to put this and I haven't seen it anywhere...LOL, but then of course I did miss the search bar the other day.

I think that Necros need the ability to rez fallen party members NOT a rez sig or a secondary profession skill. Being masters of death, maybe have the rez bring fallen party member back up with a health degen (that a monk touch could fix) like minions. In essense a rez with a residual hex lingering.

draxynnic · Jan 01, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Updated.

Tempy: It has come up before (in fact, I think I've even raised it myself) but I'll put it in for completeness.

As a general note, there is a skill each that acts as a hard restriction to movement (Scorpion Wire, which triggers if the victim is seperated from the caster by more than a certain amount) and one that acts as a lure (Tease). This isn't a challenge, for the record, just a comment - both aspects could certainly stand to be expanded

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chaoticmadness · Jan 04, 2007, 05:35 AM // 05:35

dont know if this is wut uoy were looking for but i posted a concept build of a sub class warrior who uses spikes on his armor and rushes through the enemy. i got this idea from the gutbusters from a book i read by r.a. salvatore

Giddeanx · Jan 04, 2007, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Placing semi permanent environmental effects (not using a spirit). Such as icy terrain and other ground types.

BahamutKaiser · Jan 05, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

I don't see how environmental effects are different than DoT spells or Wards, you should be more specific.

Giddeanx · Jan 05, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

I think what I am going for is changing the terrain perminately (until zone) to one of the many terrain types that occur through out the game. Lava (from ring of fire), jade shards (luxon areas), icy (shiverpeaks), the tar (post searing). It may be to similar to wards and spirits and could be folded in, but I would like them to be more persistant.

Manfred · Jan 05, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

How about enemy-targeting but not damage-causing effects with larger than normal effect range? We can heal and enchant the party from 100 feet away, but we can't cast a weak snare or somesuch?

Oh, and minions that don't need corpses and aren't stationary. I'd say golems, but then people would think of the junky "hey, let's make one warrior with bad AI to be on your team!"

Ooh, terrain effects. That's pretty sweet.

BahamutKaiser · Jan 08, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Spirits provide long range effects, and binding rituals can provide long range determental effects. The idea of actually creating extreme terrain, and most actual environment terrains hazards are extreme, it would require something like immobilizing and maintaining a location with your actual character. Beside that, Wards and spirits are the balanced option, with less effect and less duration reasonable to the cost.

I kind of hoped Maintained DoT and Ward effects would be added to Elementist, since current DoT spells blow and they could use some diversity, but I think it should be focal to a new class. That is why I developed barrier abilities when I made Stalker, for wide ranged offensive and defensive environment manipulation which must be maintained by a character rather than a spirit.

actionjack · Jan 08, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

An idea on Terrain changer.

I think it might be intersting to have a "spread out" effect. So unlike the Wards or spirit, where it effect all of its effect-range after cast, could have the terrain spread slowly in a outward circle, with the caster at the center, and would take 5-10 seconds befoe it fully cover the range of its effect. The caster would be count as casting in that time, and if interupted or move, than its spread would be smaller.

Things like

Lava Ground
10e / 1s cast / 45s recharge
Continue cast up to 8 seconds (to reach a max effect range of X feet), and cover ground in lava for the next 10...34 seconds.

Vine of Thorn
10e / 1s cast / 30s recharge
Continue cast up to 8 seconds (to reach a max effect range of X feet), and cover ground in vines of thorn that caus cripple to all foe in effect, last for the next 8...20 seconds.

could go for a geomancer or as an attribute line for Druid-type.

draxynnic · Jan 08, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Sorry I haven't updated in a while - blame my efforts at collecting as much treasure as possible before it (possibly) goes away. And the heket. The heket needed to die.

chaoticmadness: That's not what I was looking for, no. I believe there is a sticky thread listing concept classes on the forum you might want to see about getting your concept added to if you haven't already, though.

Nevertheless, I've added you to the index as a supporting voice for the general grappler idea.