Curse

Sli Ander · Dec 30, 2007, 08:05 AM // 08:05

I was reading through a thread on GW's dungeons, and the problems therein, and people started talking about puzzles. The problem, they said, with puzzles is that once a couple people figure it out, they'll post the answers on a wiki and it won't be a fun challenge anymore. Everyone will have the answer and just plow through.
So I thought of a possible solution. After all, if you require simultaneous movement of switches or something, all you're doing is requiring more people. So what about a randomized area?

There are two ways to do this: Randomize the mob build up, or the rooms themselves (if you've ever seen the movie "the Cube" you know what I mean).

Type A would work like this: The guys that make the game set up the paths and whatnot through the area, but leave the blank for what type of mob occupies a 'room'. When you try and enter the room the program picks randomly from a list of premade mobs (i.e. trapper mobs, mesmer mobs, etc. with bosses for KISS purposes). So for each section you don't know what you're going to run in first.

While it might be possible, and is probable to destroy this mob with a cookie-cutter, if the mobs are varied enough its possible to keep any particular build from working most proficiently. While this would work, I don't like this as much as Plan B.

Plan B: Set up something like this.

[a][b][c]
[d][e][f]
[g][h][i]

Now originally (as I was typing this) I thought about having the rooms come from this selection and actually move into the path of the player. The difference between this and Type A, however, instead of changing mobs (which could still be incorporated into the different rooms) we'll be changing PUZZLES. Let's say the player starts at H (though we could randomize the start point as well). To get from H a puzzle must be solved. Once the puzzle is solved, a door opens. But rather than a normal GW level of A) Go to point B, B) go to point C and kill something, the puzzle will randomly choose a door from G, I and E.

People will still be able to solve these puzzles from wikis, or destroy mobs with cookie cutters, but if you use a lot more room options like this, than it will certainly slow down how quickly people solve the area (and even if they do, it won't matter from a wiki unless you get the same combo of rooms).

Also, could you imagine if instead of a simple 3 set matrix like this, a full 20 rooms, or more in the rotation? Something like this?

[a][b][c][d][e]
[g][h][i] [j] [k]
[l][m][n][o][p]
[q][r][s][t][u]

And since these rooms wouldn't have to exist until the player solved the puzzle, it wouldn't suck down computer time or bandwidth (just as areas are seperated in GW now. Going from Ascalon Foothills to Diessa lowlands requires a zone)

Even if you wanted to have seamless movements from room to room (by having you enter each threshold, the game would begin loading the possible rooms you could enter), it would only have to load a total of 4 rooms max. I.E. you're standing in room I, the game doesn't know which way you'll go, so it loads rooms H, C, J and N. When you enter one of these rooms it loads the next set.

Well I hope I haven't bored y'all to tears, but that's my idea. And if you'd like, I can clarify portions or divide them up to make it easier to read. It was kind of an epiphany, so I may not have explained it well.

But that's just my two cents

/edit Forgot to mention earlier that with each room would come a different puzzle. While each room may eventually be force to have a similar puzzle to another (after all, creativity can only go so far); terrain, enemies, etc. should keep the challenge going.

mazey vorstagg · Dec 30, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

/signed

I love puzzles! and we need more

the difficulty is, what sort of puzzles could be implemented in an 8 player team game?

Phoenix Tears · Dec 30, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

then people are whining about boring dungeon "crawler" with perma repeating reuses of the same dungeon designs ...

what we have still....not all dungeons are unique...certain ones have stages..that are 100%& identical looking to stages of other dungeons -.-

Sli Ander · Dec 30, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55

To Mazey: Well, you don't really have to have puzzles designed for multiple people (though you could always use simultaneous trigger type things, but that would REQUIRE multiple people rather than simply encourage it.), you just have to have at least one person in your party with a bit of brains.

To Phoenix: Well, the whole scenery thing is really all about the setting you stick the dungeon in. For instance, lets say this dungeon is a hedge labyrinth. This means all the passages between puzzle areas can be filled with different greenery, different enemies. Gates can be installed, or perhaps plants can draw back to let you out of a room.

If, instead, the dungeon is in a tower, you can alternate between the castle portion (with straight room to room stuff) and occasionally run up some stairs. The thing is that when it comes down to it, most buildings (even in RL) look the same. So long as the developers vary up the decorations on the walls, let some light filter through the broken ceiling,etc (in other words load the place with trappings to give it the feeling of depth) it should be fine.

If people can't handle the fact that the basic design of dungeons has changed much since paper and pen, that's their problem. If the developers can keep it varied and interesting in setting(i.e. one place is a booby trapped tomb you have to wend through, but the next is a valley system) then that should be enough.

But that's just my two cents

Sleeper Service · Dec 30, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

/signed because its a good concept.

/not signed because the implementation would be terrible (repeated rooms over and over, same puzzles over and over) and the human factor would force the designers to dumb it down to the point of imbecility.

Its easier easier to give each dungeon a theme and atmosphere, each room a "feeling", scripted events, interesting enemies and enemy combinations.

not that im saying its the case now...sometimes in some dungeons it is.

Sorrows Furnace was and remains the best example of a successful dungeon design in GW imo.

which i find quite sad really. They went from cool missions, funny npc interaction, cool bosses with ATTITUDE not "gaint X RAGH RAGGH!" type monters, cool traps (them presses...) bridges, gears, CLEAR yet complex mapping and cool drops (at the time) to....really confusing, DARK (read annoying), repetitive, idiotically trapped (spam condition X...) and crappy drops...

warcrap · Dec 30, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

gw2 is bound to have a whole bunch of dungeons maybe 80+ or more.
we can expect great things for that.