Curse

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Takuna
Your "blasted post" was four sentences long. That's not hardly enough to flesh out anything. I apologize for any rudeness in my reply to you; but please understand, if you don't spend more time making a reasoned argument than that, you come across as uninformed.

Making people play for longer works... if they are actually playing. As I had stated, a fair number of people are just quitting Guild Wars (PvE) altogether because they are tired of playing the same old character professions, but don't have the will to grind another profession through the campaigns.

Furthermore, you are right that if people's only goal is to complete the game, then shortening the process will make them leave faster. However, I contend that encouraging new PvE character creation would be an encouragement to stay. And also, I do not believe that people just finish the game and quit. Most of the people I know have already finished the campaigns on their favourite characters, but continue to play by grinding gold, repeating high-end missions with friends, and so forth.

Then again, if people are going to just finish the game and leave, don't you think they've had enough time to do so? My suggestion is aimed at retaining the people who are still on Guild Wars, who still want to play some aspects of the game, but do not wish to complete the required Grind to get to those areas.

Lyra
Oh, burnout will still happen. But, so sorry, we have a fundamental disagreement. I think that, for some/many people, giving someone the option to skip the continental grind will in fact encourage them to continue playing the areas they find fun, without requiring they go through the areas they don't. Again, do not force your customers to have meatloaf if they want cherry pie.

By the way, doesn't referring to how many people want to skip the cinema, only prove that there are people who appreciate the option? Your argument says that we can't give people the option to skip zones, or else they'll skip them.

?

You're right... burnout will happen overall. But, my suggestion is aimed at (what I perceive as) a specific, sizable cause of burnout--namely, the grind so many of us PvEers despise. Remember, Guild Wars is the game where Skill outplays Grind.

So let me avoid the Grind, and use my Skill in the high-end areas please.

Magma
Um.... a little short-sighted? You keep repeating yourself, how much you enjoyed those areas of the game. Great! However, not all of us enjoy the same aspects you do. To a degree you have a point--if this is the way the game would always be, then yes, it would make sense to find a different game. And, in fact, this is what many people have already done...

... which is my point! ANet could retain some of its player (and thus, customer) base by adding in a modification to the current game. You can tell me to find a different game over and over--and in the end, that might be what happens. And yet, if this game can be improved to avoid that need, why should we not talk about it?

Please stop telling me to deal with the game as it is--to take it or leave it--and instead focus on the merits and flaws in my argument.

Takuna · Dec 31, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

I didn't think I needed to say much more in my first post. I don't like to say more than need be. And yes, I had forgotten about people that were willing to grind gold and such, as I'm pretty sick of grinding anything. All I enjoy about the game is training up new professions and exploring new areas; trying new aspects of the game. I'm not one for 'getting that monk as fast as possible so I can do UW all month'.

One thing I do like, though, is knowing that most (debatable but... whatever...) of the people in high level areas know how to play. Letting newbies into higher areas faster will just make it annoying. I think we've heard all of this before from the whole Factions speed characters debates.

Age · Dec 31, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I just skimmed this and if it means unlocking all towns and outposts if 1 of your char.s has beaten the game I support it.I know a lot of ppl like and say just play the game but it is getting old and who wants to reroll a char.This may help those get survivor as well and if it mean getting ascended early then so be it.I have said it in a few threads that it would be great to be ascended before you get to ToA.

Shakti · Dec 31, 2007, 10:01 PM // 22:01

I would agree with this provisionally. Ferries to outposts you've unlocked only after you've beaten the campaign in question.

I would also add the idea that it should only be for chars after level 20. Don't wanna beat NF again just to get your 5th char to DoA? Cool. But imo ONLY 20's should have this. Otherwise you end up with chars that are way outleveled by the area LFG and you have lots of what we had in the recent past...ppl rolling chars, ferry to end, get end game loot, scrap, reroll. That is not enjoyment of the game in a new way.

CyberMesh0 · Dec 31, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

/signed for a ferry for a price NPC if one of your characters has been there already, and if you've beaten that campaign.

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Takuna
Your first paragraph states what you enjoy. Great! My suggestion would not keep you from exploring new areas and raising your new professions at all. You may not be keen on rushing professions to high end areas. ^_^ My suggestion does nothing to rush you.

Your second paragraph, though, raises a good point. This would indeed allow people to high-end areas before they might have the necessary experience. For myself, I consider this an acceptable trade off. I'd rather allow myself and my friends and guildmates to rush monks and paragons to the end areas... than be forced to grind through the campaigns, simply to make sure the nooblets get weeded out.

And, indeed, the nooblets are not reliably weeded out as it is. There have been many times in high-end areas... FoW, UW, Deep, Urgoz, and so forth... where I have been in party with "experienced" players who were obviously very, very baed at teh gamez.

So, while we may be allowing more nooblets in than we would otherwise like, we gain the benefit increasing accessiblity in the game to experienced players who are getting burned out on grinding new professions through an uninteresting (to them!) campaign. And besides, there are several counters to the nooblet worry. You can demand skill bar checks as you form a party; you can demand Ventrilo or TeamSpeak Attendance; you can go with mostly/total guild and alliance groups, whom you trust to run even new professions.

Shakti
Level 20, eh? There's an idea... same as the EotN ferry.
Then again, what did ANet do when they wanted to encourage EotN exploration?
THEY LOWERED THE LEVEL REQUIREMENT FOR CHARACTERS TO 10.

Now, I think you have a good idea. The level 20 requirement might be necessary.
My point, though, is that when ANet wanted more players, they increased accessibility by allowing players to reach areas sooner than they previous could.

Hmmm.

lyra_song · Dec 31, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

Lyra
Oh, burnout will still happen. But, so sorry, we have a fundamental disagreement. I think that, for some/many people, giving someone the option to skip the continental grind will in fact encourage them to continue playing the areas they find fun, without requiring they go through the areas they don't. Again, do not force your customers to have meatloaf if they want cherry pie.

By the way, doesn't referring to how many people want to skip the cinema, only prove that there are people who appreciate the option? Your argument says that we can't give people the option to skip zones, or else they'll skip them.

?

You're right... burnout will happen overall. But, my suggestion is aimed at (what I perceive as) a specific, sizable cause of burnout--namely, the grind so many of us PvEers despise. Remember, Guild Wars is the game where Skill outplays Grind.

So let me avoid the Grind, and use my Skill in the high-end areas please.

You don't want to play a section of the game because you dont find it fun. Ok, this I understand.

But the places you do want to play were designed to be the reward for playing the parts you might not find fun. This I understand also, but I do not agree with.

I choose A, and get a rewad.
You choose B and for less effort and get the same reward as me.

This is inherently unfair. IF you want the option to skip parts of the game, people who don't skip parts of the game should be given something as a compensation for their effort to offset not skipping it.

Adding such an option is not optional, but rather a mandatory thing.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Grind is completely SUBJECTIVE. There was a thread in riverside as to what was people's definition of grind. Go look it up and see if anyone agrees.

Playing through the storyline, for me, isn't a grind.
Playing the Deep OVER and OVER just to get crappy Zodiacs is a grind to me.

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

But the places you do want to play were designed to be the reward for playing the parts you might not find fun. This I understand also, but I do not agree with.

Grind is completely SUBJECTIVE. There was a thread in riverside as to what was people's definition of grind. Go look it up and see if anyone agrees.

Again.
Some people will enjoy the cherry pie so much that they are willing to endure the hated meatloaf in order to get to the dessert at the end. Meanwhile, other customers will just say "screw it" and get their cherry pie elsewhere.

As a business, ANet does not want their customers to go elsewhere (RIGHT?!)*. Thus, my suggestion is an attempt to keep the customers coming here. Yes, people have always in the past gotten to the cherry pie as a reward for finishing the meatloaf.... but hey, if your customers want cherry pie, then by all means give them cherry pie!

By the way, you do get compensation for finishing the whole game. Gold, experience, faction, titles, drops, and so forth.

Finally, yes. Grind IS completely subjective--which is my entire point. You're not forced to grind zodiacs, and I ask we not be forced to grind campaigns.

* footnote: I do not personally believe the conspiracy theory that ANet has made their revenue off us, and now wishes we would all just stop playing in order to save bandwidth costs while also convincing us to buy GW2 a year or two from now. Of course, if you believe that ANet is trying to chase us all away from GW1 but not GW2, then my arguments lose much of their support.

MagmaRed · Dec 31, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

1) This allows people to skip the game. This means people who WANT to play something like Bloodstone Fen, may not find a PUG, as the many who hate it will be skipping it entirely.

2) The economy is already bad. This allows people to equip themselves and their heroes with green end game weapons fast and easy. Someone with a Warrior, and all 4 games can easily outfit his 4 Warriors (player +3 heroes) with Exalted Aegis' and Sword/Axe of the Forgottens. They can do this now, but it would mean they buy the items, not 'earn' them.

3) If you want a skill or elite found in late game areas (Mind Blast, for example) you already have a way to get that. A level 1 Ele can have Mind Blast as soon as they get to a city and buy an Elite Tome.

4) I don't see how this will bring NEW sales in. Even if you are right, and people stop leaving the game because they don't have to 'grind' to the part they like, why are new people going to buy it? There are 10 classes, and if you own all 3 games to allow for those 10 classes, you get 8 character slots. At most, this means people will buy 2-3 extra character slots if they want to have 1 of each class. Many people, however, play 1-2 characters max, and have PvP slots or storage mules for the rest. There are also many people like myself, who have multiple accounts. I see little to no income being generated by this feature.

5) People stop playing when they get bored. Getting to the end game areas fast, having 1337 armor and weapons fast, and having nothing to work towards gets boring for most people. I see people no longer farming UW/FoW to get Obsidian armor, because they get bored playing the game, and no longer want to play. Most of the groups that do UW/FoW aer farming groups, or CLEAR groups for a monument. I see your idea causing more people to leave, not more to stay.

6) You can already get runs past large sections of the game, especially in Tyria. Although more limited, Cantha and Elona will allow you to skip sections, or not participate and get through. This has become part of the games economy, as many people make money by providing runs to places or through missions/quests. Your idea takes away part of the economy (which is not an inherently bad thing).

All I see you saying is:

"I don't like parts of the game, and would like Anet to make it so I can skip it after my first character has done it."

Shakti · Dec 31, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

Shakti
Level 20, eh? There's an idea... same as the EotN ferry.
Then again, what did ANet do when they wanted to encourage EotN exploration?
THEY LOWERED THE LEVEL REQUIREMENT FOR CHARACTERS TO 10.

Now, I think you have a good idea. The level 20 requirement might be necessary.
My point, though, is that when ANet wanted more players, they increased accessibility by allowing players to reach areas sooner than they previous could.

Hmmm.

They lowered the req to 10 to get players in that campaign. They wanted sales, end of story. Allowing lvl 10's access to the beginning (with a huge buff) is a far cry from giving anyone at all access to all end game areas.

The entire EotN was closed to all below 20, not so in the other 3. Map travel is rather different. What I'm proposing is that the map travel npc ONLY works after lvl 20. This will stop the farm I mentioned previously, the low lvls looking for free rides through end game missions to get greens etc etc. Most (not all) of the complaints I see regarding this would be solved by the limit on lvl.

lyra_song · Dec 31, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

Again.
Some people will enjoy the cherry pie so much that they are willing to endure the hated meatloaf in order to get to the dessert at the end. Meanwhile, other customers will just say "screw it" and get their cherry pie elsewhere.

As a business, ANet does not(?) want their customers to go elsewhere. Thus, my suggestion is an attempt to keep the customers coming here. Yes, people have always in the past gotten to the cherry pie as a reward for finishing the meatloaf.... but hey, if your customers want cherry pie, then by all means give them cherry pie!

Some customers leave not because they want the cherry pie elsewhere but because the whole meal has gotten boring in general.

If they get sick of the pie, then they will lose the customer anyway.

Quote:

By the way, you do get compensation for finishing the whole game. Gold, experience, faction, titles, drops, and so forth.

No, these things are irrelevant, since XP/Gold/Good items are better in the higher end areas.

Quote:

Finally, yes. Grind IS completely subjective--which is my entire point. You're not forced to grind zodiacs, and I ask we not be forced to grind campaigns.

No. You are not forced to grind the campaign. You can choose to not play it. Thats an option too.

MithranArkanere · Dec 31, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

As long as primary quests and missions are required to be made IN ORDER, that, is you can go to Abaddon mouth with any character if any character has been there before, BUT, you WON'T be able to make Abaddon's mouth unless you make ALL the previous quests and missions.

Of course, that would include Prophecies quests. Travel by boat to Ember camp if you want, but will not be able to make the missions there unless making the previous ones.

Otherwise, NOT.

zwei2stein · Dec 31, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

Ok.

I want to play the game because I like being with my friends and guildies.
We like to do high-end areas like DoA, The Deep, Urgoz, and so forth.

I also enjoy variety, playing different professions.... to say nothing about how sometimes groups NEED a certain profession for the last spot in the build.

What I do NOT enjoy is the grinding process necessary to get my different characters to that point in the game.

Your entire post is saying "if you don't enjoy the grinding, then you're playing the wrong game, because you have to grind to have the opportunity to play in The Deep".

.......

Have you ever though of the fact you would be burden to your guildies/friends? Playing class you have no experience, fighting mobs you never fought with that class before. Not only would you be buirden to oyur friends, you would allow thousands of other players to do same to their groups. All for what? together time which you could have easily somehwere else.

How selfish of you.

It would be reinisance of "bane signet-healbreeze-powershot-readthewind" monks we all knew and loved in THK, all this running would generate is lots of people missing experience playing their class in highend areas. And no, playing other characters trought does not count, because unless you are very smart, you need couple of roadblocks that teach you how to play better.

It would push people even harder to limiting their pug experience to people who are worth it: who grinded pve titles apropriate to that mission. And it would be necesity, simply because noone likes to fail.

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Magma
In effect, you are correct in your statements. Your final summation of my posts is actually quite accurate. I don't see why that summation is a bad thing.

(1)
It's already bloody difficult to get a PUG at obscure locations. Your arguments rests on two ideas. First, that we should force people who hate playing that mission to play it. How... interesting. Second, you assume that there will be less people in that zone. While that is a concern, part of my argument is that there will be MORE people, as players create new characters and are able to try for Protector and Guardian titles, without having to actually run through all the primary quests between each mission.

Think of it! We could post a thread on Guild Wars Guru "Bloodstone Fen mission, Saturday at 19:00 GMT. Please sign up with character and profession you will be bringing." Now, I could only take my monk and warrior there currently--but if this were implemented, I could roll a ranger and have it ready by then with so much less effort than I'd need currently!

(2)
Yes, the economy is already bad. What are you trying to save? In my original post, I explained and discounted the worth of the end-game items you're referring to--did you see that part? More importantly, you can already get your heroes statistically superior weaponry with /bonus items. Hourglass Staff, anyone? I know all my casters use them.

(3)
Yes, and I already admitted that the PvE Unlock Packs were a secondary consideration. My point is not to get your characters skills faster; rather, it's to get your characters faster to the areas you actually want to play.

(4)
Even a little increased income generated through increased character slots and purchased campaigns would still be an income increase, and thus a larger bottom line, right? Even if it's minimal, as someone else in this thread has stated... most people have already bought their campaigns and aren't shelling out more cash. Thus, ANet needs to find ways to convince people to spend more money that they otherwise wouldn't. Here is my suggestions. ^_~

(5)
As I said to Lyra, people are going to continue to leave for various reasons. My suggestion targets one specific reasons; that some people would like to play other parts of the game (i.e. try Domian of Anguish on a Paragon), but don't find the idea of raising a new paragon all the way to DoA appealing. Do you think that offering people the chance to UW/FoW faster is going to chase them away? On the contrary, I would think that with the increased accessibility because of how easy it is to get new characters to UW and FoW, wouldn't they want to go to those areas more to get a monument for each character?

(6)
If it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's not a real objection. Of course, this is something to consider.

genofreek · Dec 31, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Well, if you've beaten that campaign and have unlocked the outposts, why not? People are getting runs through areas and missions already; if they don't want to play that area, they'll find ways around it.

The exploit was a little TOO free IMO, but with a bit of reasonable limitation I'd like the option of unlocking the maps.

This would be especially nice in Factions where you need to earn 10k just to continue. I've done it three times already, and now I'm leery about spending any faction on things I'd like to have just so I don't have to stop and farm it.

lyra_song · Dec 31, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I think if I was Anet, i would focus on making those boring areas of the game more fun instead of letting people just skip it.

That would be more productive.

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Shakti
Ah, so sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you at all! It's simply that your suggestion made me think of that point.

Lyra
Yes. If they get sick of the whole meal, they'll stop coming. I am not suggesting a thing to retain thsoe people. I am only making a suggestion that will help keep the customers around who like the pie but not the meatloaf.

"You are not forced to grind... you can choose not to play." Excuse me. Again, it's an example of "take it or leave it", is if the very act of suggsesting a modification is wrong. As I have said repeatedly, what you advise is exactly what many people are doing--they don't want the meatloaf, so they choose not to play at all! Wouldn't you rather serve more customers--some the whole meal, and some just parts of it--rather than lose customers because you insist on serving the meal in only one fashion?

zwei
An excellent attempt at the style of writing, but the flaw in the argument is a bit too obvious. I suggest giving people more freedom, which is hardly selfish. At least, it seems absurd to imply that giving people more options is tantramount to greed.

And, your argument would have more poignancy if PUGs were currently a healthy and large part of this game. Finding good PUGs is already an option; and as I have said previously, there are counters. You can form a party, for example, and demand to see skill templates. If you see a "RtW/Power Shot/Bane Signet Monk", you don't continue with him or her. XD

Red · Dec 31, 2007, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I think if I was Anet, i would focus on making those boring areas of the game more fun instead of letting people just skip it.

That would be more productive.

This quote demanded a separate post.
QFT

Of course, I have no idea how to do this. Do you?
If you do, please start another thread.
<3 And I will /sign it for you.

Eviance · Dec 31, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Shakti I agree with you on that to some degree - we all agree that do agree - that the whole mechanics would have to be worked out.

MagmaRed... As far as farming the end greens for their heros and such... Well it's just not all that anyways! I mean /bonus gives me about all I need for my heros. I doubt it will make that big of a difference. I continue to play this game because of the friends I have made and not my pixels and I can't play with those friends because they are either leaving the game because they don't feel like playing through the game for the millionth time or I don't feel like doing so with mine to get to that area to play with them.

As for DoA rewards - in case you haven't noticed at all, its not a cake walk in and of itself. There is a grind in that to get the "rewards" and you have to have completed the game anyways which anyone can get guildies to afk you through everything but I highly doubt that is any fun for them. I "forced" a character with some guildies to a high end area so that we could play and guess what? We were all too burned out to bother by then.

I don't want that.

As for the whole noob thing - you cannot fix stupidity. The bar has 8 slots and if they cannot figure out how to use 8 skills properly then they need to go back to playing hello kitty. I can understand it for pvp, but pve changes little - you get agro, you kill. I've known people to go all the way through the game and THEY ARE STILL NUBS! Ya can't fix stupid.

lyra_song · Dec 31, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

Lyra
Yes. If they get sick of the whole meal, they'll stop coming. I am not suggesting a thing to retain thsoe people. I am only making a suggestion that will help keep the customers around who like the pie but not the meatloaf.

"You are not forced to grind... you can choose not to play." Excuse me. Again, it's an example of "take it or leave it", is if the very act of suggsesting a modification is wrong. As I have said repeatedly, what you advise is exactly what many people are doing--they don't want the meatloaf, so they choose not to play at all! Wouldn't you rather serve more customers--some the whole meal, and some just parts of it--rather than lose customers because you insist on serving the meal in only one fashion?

I advocate gameplay. I do not advocate catering to lazy players.

If you want something, you pay the cost. If you want this option, whats the cost?