Curse

DarrenJasper · Jun 27, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Apart from anything anybody has said yet. That has to be the smartest response. And it's completely true.

No, and... no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

It puts a horrible strain on the servers, and well... it's going to be costing them more money in the long run. And with the thousands of people using bots, it seems like the numbers are growing...

No, it doesn't. No, it isn't. No, they aren't! That's five total untruths in a row!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Soon, my responses will be to find the websites, and people giving out these bots and letting them get downloaded... i will report them directly to anet.

Have a problem with that, and you're more then likely a scared bot user that doesnt want to be banned for life. Tough crapola.

Yeah, just like anyone who has a problem with the Bush administration is a terrorist. Grow a brain.

Nokomis · Jun 28, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

No, and... no.

No, it doesn't. No, it isn't. No, they aren't! That's five total untruths in a row!

Yeah, just like anyone who has a problem with the Bush administration is a terrorist. Grow a brain.

Darren, could you explain to me why bots wouldn't overload a server? I'm not arguing with you, or saying you are wrong, I just actually want to know why it wouldn't be a strain on servers if hundreds of characters were running automatically hours at a time. I truly don't understand how this stuff works.

--Nokomis

DarrenJasper · Jun 28, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nokomis

Darren, could you explain to me why bots wouldn't overload a server? I'm not arguing with you, or saying you are wrong, I just actually want to know why it wouldn't be a strain on servers if hundreds of characters were running automatically hours at a time. I truly don't understand how this stuff works.

--Nokomis

Because MMO servers (especially the really really good ones that ANet has acquired) are designed to handle thousands of players. A few hundred more, even another thousand, is not going to make an impact. But that isn't even happening, because the bots are not new accounts, they are alts of the players who would have been playing anyway! So the imagined, non-existent lag would have been there, bots or no bots.

Any lag you might experience from a bunch of people congregating in a single zone is just a framerate slowdown from all the polygons on the screen. Go to a different district, problem fixed. You cannot reasonably claim that bots are giving you crippling lag, their impact on the server (if any) is negligible, and such claims are sensationalism at its worst.

Perishiko ReLLiK · Jun 28, 2005, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

Because MMO servers (especially the really really good ones that ANet has acquired) are designed to handle thousands of players. A few hundred more, even another thousand, is not going to make an impact. But that isn't even happening, because the bots are not new accounts, they are alts of the players who would have been playing anyway! So the imagined, non-existent lag would have been there, bots or no bots.

Any lag you might experience from a bunch of people congregating in a single zone is just a framerate slowdown from all the polygons on the screen. Go to a different district, problem fixed. You cannot reasonably claim that bots are giving you crippling lag, their impact on the server (if any) is negligible, and such claims are sensationalism at its worst.

Were you born stupid, or did it grow on you?

No joke, these bots are people that would normaly be not playing, you moron... it's why they're at work/sleeping, while they have a script play for them. And the "imagined" lag, is not imagined, your still just a complete moron. I've talked with many other in-game players, and quite a few are seeing lag, if you go into seekers passage, especially at a time in which people wouldnt be playing (night time), you can notice the lag.

Sure, i could go to a district where people arent getting "auto-placed" into, as the bots won't be zoning in there.

I am not stating it's causing a "whole" server lag, it's causing zone lag, a problem in seekers passage that i know of, heck, i don't know the other areas these people are going.

Perhaps your bot using self will have fun when he gets booted.

Not only is it un-needed crap that the game designers don't want... but it's also against the terms of agreement.

Now reply telling me how my statements mean nothing, and how stupid i am... reply to me how you're right, and reply to me telling me that you don't use bots. But it won't make a difference, because you think your right, and i know your right to a certain extent... but that's ok.

Wanna know what every instance is that is created by these guys? Oh yea... that's reasonably one million zones being created within one night, where none of those would exist without the bots. Hmph, shux... i'll end on that note... goodbye sir.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

Yeah, just like anyone who has a problem with the Bush administration is a terrorist. Grow a brain.

Perhaps you do know what "More then likely" means? ok...

And to that, i don't know what to say, you sound really frustrated with something... perhaps problems with your significant, now go on and play. I hear it's healthy.

*i wish i could be as "for bots" as you, but i do suspect that the reasoning for this post is more of a discusion on how bots are wrong, and should be out of the game*-- This has not gone that way, and this thread diserves to be closed.-- Another good arguement ended.

DarrenJasper · Jun 28, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

No joke, these bots are people that would normaly be not playing, you moron... it's why they're at work/sleeping, while they have a script play for them. And the "imagined" lag, is not imagined, your still just a complete moron. I've talked with many other in-game players, and quite a few are seeing lag, if you go into seekers passage, especially at a time in which people wouldnt be playing (night time), you can notice the lag.

This is the same as someone leaving their computer on AFK all the time and never logging off. You think that lags everyone out, even if hundreds of people did it? Maybe I need to explain the scope of this concept again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Sure, i could go to a district where people arent getting "auto-placed" into, as the bots won't be zoning in there.

So you admit that you can solve your problem with a few mouse clicks, but would rather just complain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Perhaps your bot using self will have fun when he gets booted.

LOL. Even if I did use bots, no one's getting booted. Sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Wanna know what every instance is that is created by these guys? Oh yea... that's reasonably one million zones being created within one night, where none of those would exist without the bots. Hmph, shux... i'll end on that note... goodbye sir.

I'll break it down for you once more. Server impact = negligible

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

*i wish i could be as "for bots" as you, but i do suspect that the reasoning for this post is more of a discusion on how bots are wrong, and should be out of the game*-- This has not gone that way, and this thread diserves to be closed.-- Another good arguement ended.

I am not "for bots". I don't support the people who do this, nor do I oppose them. I support people doing what they please with the money they've paid as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and I oppose people trying to interfere with business that doesn't concern or affect them, based on imagined infractions or some kind of misguided moral compass.

You posted this as a discussion on how bots are wrong, and should be out of the game? That's an opinion, not a topic. So basically, you consider your thread to have gone awry because every reply was not agreeing with you?

KonohaFlash · Jun 28, 2005, 08:29 AM // 08:29

rofl, bots are against the rules and should and will be removed. dont care how it does or does not affect other players... if it's against the rules and players who agreed to abide by these, breaks part of the rules, then they are subject to have their accounts banned

squiros · Jun 28, 2005, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I actually think it may affect server performance in a non-negligable way. If you consider the network layer probably only has a single bit for AFK users as a keep alive bit, it probably costs almost nothing. The translation to the application layer would likely be unaffected. However, suppose a hundred users are running bots, the amount of processing that a server would have to spend calculating the appropriate path finding, for example would be far from negligable. Also, you could consider that within a town, the number of entities currently with nonzero velocities and their collisions have to be calculated in what is likley a factorial function. These calculations are CPU intensive and will affect the application layer, even if the network layer is unaffected. In fact, factorial functions are the most CPU and memory intensive. Furthermore, it's possible that bots process information faster than humans. A human can only issue a few commands per second (say heal, run and attack). A bot can easily issue thousands of commands per second. A bot could buffer a sequence of 7 skills and cancel based on the changing situation(s) - and do so 20 or 30 times a second. Each instruction is contained within a packet of data and any frame lost will have to be retransmitted. Obviously, the more packets that can not be processed, the more packets that will have to be retransmitted. This also affects the amount of processing the server will have to keep track of - since the distribution of processing is probably delocalized by map . . . which means a few hundred bots issuing a few hundred commands could effectively lag all districts. At this point, even the session layer may be overwhelmed with transactions.

I would love to help, rather than complain. Unfortunately, I lack the source code :P. I'm sure A.net has bot protection policies, but, realistically, the bots will always be better. Memory mappers are ever present and legal. Anet could look for specific threads or processes - but those can be arbitrarily chosen and corrected dynamically no less and fairly easily. Bots can always simulate mouse movements, if memory verification or process authentification occurs.

Mat Thirteen · Jun 28, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

It might be useful to your health not to get so worked up over something other people are doing that doesn't affect you.

But then, that does seem to be a trend these days, one that is hardly restricted to video games.

Doesnt affect him? Really? haha. Really? Haha. HAHAHA. Ok, see. The thing is... people like this are selling superior runes left and right. So.. i have a Sup. Ranger rune of Expertise. Thats a shitty run really. So im sitting there with my shitty rune thats worth maybe 5k... Someone starts farming using bots ALL DAY every day. They get 10 of those Sup. Expertise runes... sell them.. now my rune is worth 3k... a few days later... 2k.. a few days later.. 1... later... 25g to rune trader. Doesnt affect him? Really? haha.

Yorrix · Jun 28, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

What have I taken from this topic. Here are the two arguements as I see them.

Side A: Bitches.

Side B: Bitches.

This is all I take away from what I have read. O_o

I agree with DarrenJasper that you might want to cool your anger on this issue. I doubt it will do your health many favours, and at the end of the day: it's a game. It's a proven fact I'm affraid. If the worst comes to the worst, and it really is that bad, stop playing and do something more positive with your time. That's what I would do.

I don't, however, agree on the stirring and hucking of certain smelly substances throughout this thread. Come on guys, there's a difference between 'positive debate' and 'handbags at dawn'. O_o

Of the two things of note I have read:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perishiko ReLLiK

Apart from anything anybody has said yet. That has to be the smartest response. And it's completely true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

No, and... no.

Do either of you work for ANet? In fact, what qualifications do either of you have to comment on this subject? Verbatim. To comment on this, from what I have seen neither of you have any qualification to argue either point about this subject. If you do, then by all means lay your cards on the table so we can come to an educated decision on our own. Otherwise you can both hold your tongue when talking about what is fact and what is not. *Bows to squiros.*

There we go. That's independant arbitration for you. Neither of you have any viable say in it without credentials. Both are a statment of personal opinion from what I can see, and not based on any substansiable facts. Am I a mod? No, but if a mod wishes to tell me I am wrong in pointing any of this out, then I will recant whole heartedly.

Furthermore I spotted this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

You posted this as a discussion on how bots are wrong, and should be out of the game? That's an opinion, not a topic. So basically, you consider your thread to have gone awry because every reply was not agreeing with you?

Hmm, funny the personal opinion thing came up given me last point. Anyway, interesting or not, this point is not correct either. Where as it may not have been constructive, there were voices of agreement for the idea. Besides, practically every topic in this part of the forum is here because of personal opinion or ideas. If you don't agree with his right to share his, then maybe we should strip many more posts from this board, not to mention some of the useful new features that we have seen introduced into the game as a result.

What do I wish to say? If you are going to play, play nice. Handbag matches aren't going to get us anywhere for anything.

As for my take, I haven't seen any indication of bot use from playing in the game myself; though I can appreaciate it is possibly an issue, and if so requires discussion. I side with DrSLUGFly though. The people who do this must be pretty stupid. Personally I prefer the fun and amusement of playing the game myself.

Also any solution should be via the EULA and positive use of peer presure, again as per DrSLUGFly.

Reiz · Jun 28, 2005, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I've been watching this Thread for a little while, and I've been able to find something interesting in regards to the Whole "Do the bots produce LAG" question. Well, I highly doubt that they lag up A-Nets Servers to be honest. They wouldn't let too many users be on a server at a time (that's what districts are for.)
Ok on to what I've found. I have three computers. One is a Best that money can buy hard core gaming computer. The Second is a Laptop with Integrated Graphics. The third is an Old P3 866mhz with a PCI Gforce 4 card.
I can enter a REALLY crowded district (bot's and all) with my Good computer and I have NO lag at all. Runs great. But if I enter that same district with my Laptop of Old computer I get a LOT of lag. So what I think is that the LAG is not from A-Net's servers not being able to handle it, but from our Graphics cards/processors not being able to keep up with all the movement and People.
Just an Observation.

Yorrix · Jun 28, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reiz

So what I think is that the LAG is not from A-Net's servers not being able to handle it, but from our Graphics cards/processors not being able to keep up with all the movement and People.
Just an Observation.

As far as lag goes, it wouldn't be something noticable on your machine, per se. The effects would be seen by a load on the server, which in turn will also have a certain affect on the ware of the machine, the amount of connections it has, and data flow between players. When these get to their limits (more connections and data flow than ware, the server will last a while

) then people will start to see the results. I don't think ANet would be as stupid as to let it get to the point where people would witness any lag or low quality of service due to them, but obviously it may incur getting to higher limits more quickly. This means ANet has to spend time and money organising and purchasing upgrades to their services, which takes time and money away from further development and maintenance of the game, potentially. I work at an ISP, so I know/have to think about some of these things.

Teklord · Jun 28, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

A comment about the Lag ideas. I would be inclined to believe that the effect bots have on server lag would be near non-existant. Why? The server infrastructure would have been designed from Day 1 to be able to support as many active users as copies of Guild Wars they were planning on selling. To do anything less would be taking a great risk in being unable to adaquately support the service you are trying to sell. The only way I could see the bot problem equating to some lag on the servers would be if they were using 'pirated' or 'hacked' copies of Guild Wars, and that's assuming its even possible to do that with this game. I suppose also as mentioned before the fact that a bot can perform many thousands of operations per second could play a role too...

Either way. As for morality of bots and what is right and wrong that one is easy. Aside from the fact it is clearly in the EULA, which therefore makes it wrong, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the intended use of this program by those who would purchase it would not be to 'farm' virtual objects (using bots or otherwise) to make a profit of real currency. So yeah it quite plainly is wrong, to say otherwise would make me suspect one supports such activity.

Timotheus Amadeus · Jan 15, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

The only thing a mmorp server computes are numbers. Let's say there's a hex code for a combination of a player with this armor, that weapon, that dye applied to the armor, etc. etc. It forms a large number. Your computer calculates this number into a visual player. The only thing the mmorp servers do is combining this number with a two number location on the map. Vertical and horizontal number and the current action it's doing, using this spell (a number) etc. etc. It sends these numbers to your pc and your pc calculates it to a visual image.

Eli Rela · Jan 15, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Talking about resurrecting a dead horse... mods, please close...

Kanyatta · Jan 15, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

The reason it affects everyone's game play is that, soon, inflation will be so much, like other people said, that you could buy 1 mil for under $5, and at that point, anyone who feels gold buying ruins the game and refuses to do it, will either be forced to buy gold to even compete, or will leave the game in frustration.

Farming ruins games, it's a fact. Anet could have done a lot about farmers from the beginning, but they have chosen not to. If nothing is done, I sure won't play GW2.

Resurrecting a dead horse this may be, but it is a huge issue that is not being addressed. As one that does not support gold farming, it is ruining my game play experience.

Lag comes in 2 different forms, basically. FPS and Ping, if you are having low FPS problems, but not Ping problems, it is your computer. If you are having Ping problems, it is the servers fault. I don't know what specifically causes things like Error 7, but I am pretty sure that is an Anet related issue.

Basically, anyone who says it's not our business, they are wrong. Gold farming and duping has ruined the game itself badly, and there seems to be no way to resurrect it without some serious changes, which no one feels like doing with the GW2 beta on the horizon.

You can't see me · Jan 15, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eli Rela

Talking about resurrecting a dead horse... mods, please close...

As long as there are still bots in the game, the horse will not die. Prepare to hear this all through GW2 as well. I'd get used to it if I were you.

Arenanet has many educated programmers/anaylists on their side. If there were a more effective way to deal with bots that didn't effect the community it a negative way then I'm sure they would implement it.

Kanyatta · Jan 15, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

This is the same as someone leaving their computer on AFK all the time and never logging off. You think that lags everyone out, even if hundreds of people did it? Maybe I need to explain the scope of this concept again.

Do hundreds of people go AFK and leave their computers on overnight in the same town? I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

So you admit that you can solve your problem with a few mouse clicks, but would rather just complain.

Maybe some people want to be in American Districts to find people for their party, or some reason like that, and there aren't that many people that PvE in Intl districts

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

LOL. Even if I did use bots, no one's getting booted. Sorry.

This is the one point in your thread that makes sense. No significant impact has been implemented on the botters since Day 1 (barring farming code, which was quickly removed). I may be considered a "conspirator" but, the only reason that there could still be botters around, at least the way I see it, is that there is money being passed under the table that the community doesn't know about.

Guild Wars has one of the most advanced tracking systems in any MMO, it records every chat log, and every keystroke you use. If it notices someone using the same exact keystrokes, to the same exact millisecond, for every instance they use, Anet should, in theory, be alerted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

I'll break it down for you once more. Server impact = negligible

About a million (give or take 100,000) instances are negligible? Anet is using up server space to create these instances, meaning some memory is going to be taken away from legitimate instances.

Lately, I've seen huge lag for American GvGers. Not often, but about 2 or 3 GvG's I do per week, all the Americans on my team will freeze, and on the opposing team, but most Euros will be fine. It may be related, but it probably isn't. It's just an example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

I am not "for bots". I don't support the people who do this, nor do I oppose them. I support people doing what they please with the money they've paid as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, and I oppose people trying to interfere with business that doesn't concern or affect them, based on imagined infractions or some kind of misguided moral compass.

Buying gold from gold sellers/farmers does hurt everyone in the community, a little at a time, and it does add up. Duping + Gold Farming = Today's economy (which sucks, if you didn't notice)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

You posted this as a discussion on how bots are wrong, and should be out of the game? That's an opinion, not a topic. So basically, you consider your thread to have gone awry because every reply was not agreeing with you?

I would have to agree with most people, that if you support botting, you do not support the community that plays fairly. I can't imagine any non-botter in favor of what has become of Guild Wars today.

mrvrod · Jan 16, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

Yeah, just like anyone who has a problem with the Bush administration is a terrorist. Grow a brain.

Or like anyone who supports Bush is a racist, homophobe who wants the borders closed.

Unfortunately there are all kinds of preconceived notions out there.

gameshoes3003 · Jan 16, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Such a heated debate!
I love it!
Anyway, ANET should just have an option to where you can send in a name with a "suspicion" that he/she is farming. After that ANET could observe like how long the person was online for. If he/she is moving and he/she has been online for 89 hours, something is wrong unless if the person just loves leaving the game running while their AFK.
But that just sounds like a pain...
The ANET people could also run "undercover" investigations...
Buy a small sum of gold from one of those websites... when they find the guy who's dishing out the gold... BAN!
But that's just kind of unreasonable to an extent of ethical crap...

Overall this is an unsolvable issue and requested solutions are just too extreme or just stupid or inapplicable. This is just a topic that I'd advise people to stay away from no matter how much you hate those bots.

mrvrod · Jan 16, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

About a million (give or take 100,000) instances are negligible? Anet is using up server space to create these instances, meaning some memory is going to be taken away from legitimate instances..

Ok first my credentials: I have a Degree in both Programming and Networking, I have been involved in one way or another with computers since 1981, I have set up small to mid-sized networks.

Bots have no impact on anet's servers = FALSE
Bots have a big impact on anet's servers = FALSE
Bots have the same impact on anet's servers as a human player = TRUE
(the only difference being a human wouldn't play as long)

The 'lag' that's been discussed that players experience from crowded districts is caused by your computer hardware, specifically your GPU and CPU and to a smaller extent how much system memory you have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Lately, I've seen huge lag for American GvGers. Not often, but about 2 or 3 GvG's I do per week, all the Americans on my team will freeze, and on the opposing team, but most Euros will be fine. It may be related, but it probably isn't. It's just an example..

Since most gold farming bots are overseas, I would expect asian and european players to see a greater impact that american players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Buying gold from gold sellers/farmers does hurt everyone in the community, a little at a time, and it does add up. Duping + Gold Farming = Today's economy (which sucks, if you didn't notice)

I would not put farming in the same category as someone who exploits a bug or hack to create copies of items that should have never existed in the game.