Curse

HawkofStorms · Jan 30, 2008, 06:08 PM // 18:08

/notsigned

It is too easy to accidentally ban legitamate accounts this way. A.net is very much like the actual criminal justice system. They would rather take their time and not ban 100 botters then accidentally ban 1 innocent person.
That is why the legitamate "I got banned by mistake" threads (though most of them are just people who got banned for a real reason) do not appear to often and when they do recieve a large public outcry.

RockmanHero · Jan 30, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

/notsigned

This wouldn't work at all. It's easy to suggest this, but I really don't think there would be any way to implement such a system.

Everyone signing this has no idea about any kind of programming and implementation. If you don't agree, then give me the algorithm for the following function:

bool IsRandomName(string name)
{
}

This would be a huge mess and would create nothing but problems.

dread pirate fargus · Jan 30, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

easier, or at least more practical solution.

as everyone knows, most gold seller spam bots use buddy keys that they either buy or get free with accounts they buy / steal. its easy to see this by trying to open trade with one in town, it says 'cannot trade with that ___ because they are using a trial account'

solution: get rid of all buddy keys, make all trial accounts related to real accounts via a 'refer' system. max 3 buddys per real account. that way if someone refers gold spam bots you ban the original account as well.

someone feel free to make a seperate petition for this if you like the idea

Kendar Muert · Jan 30, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

This would be insanely easy, and wouldn't BAN ANYONE. It would prevent NEW ACCOUNTS from being created. I edited my first post to clarify that.

Rockman, it really would be easy- you know the current requirements for names? Just add one more- no random letter number combinations. The word would have to have a certain number of vowels or whatever, based on each language. WoW does it, and I believe KoTOR did it.

RockmanHero · Jan 31, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kendar Muert

This would be insanely easy, and wouldn't BAN ANYONE. It would prevent NEW ACCOUNTS from being created. I edited my first post to clarify that.

Rockman, it really would be easy- you know the current requirements for names? Just add one more- no random letter number combinations. The word would have to have a certain number of vowels or whatever, based on each language. WoW does it, and I believe KoTOR did it.

All you did was restate your original post. You didn't answer my question at all. Give me the algorithm to do that.

The only reason it's easy to you is because you don't have to do it. This request is outrageous. And what exactly is the definition of random letter number combinations? You give absolutely no specification of what you mean. Wynn is a valid name, but has no vowel characters. If you count 'y' then you could simply make a name like Yxnvy. The only way to ensure a valid name would be to only allow dictionary names and terms that just destroys any creativity. Plus, your adding on more rule sets which just complicate things.

It's not like gold spammers couldn't just use names from a dictionary and randomly combine them to eventually create a valid name. You just can't ban or deny character creation based on a name.

Dread Pirate's suggestion is much better. And if I remember correctly, I think WoW just restricted things in trial accounts. I don't remember any kind of name filters.

Fril Estelin · Jan 31, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockmanHero

Give me the algorithm to do that.

First of all, you can come with smart algorithms, though they can be bypassed. But most importantly, a human being would look at it anyway (it's not like reports, it only takes a few seconds to do that).

Quote:

It's not like gold spammers couldn't just use names from a dictionary and randomly combine them to eventually create a valid name. You just can't ban or deny character creation based on a name.

Yes you can, it's already the case for offensive names!

Furthermore, you're missing one point here: this would make the life of gold-spammers just a little bit more difficult (I guess you're not supporting them, are you?). And add one bit here and one bit there and their life can quickly become less financially interesting (if they have to do stuff that get in the way, for them it's all about maximising their profit).

RockmanHero · Jan 31, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

First of all, you can come with smart algorithms, though they can be bypassed. But most importantly, a human being would look at it anyway (it's not like reports, it only takes a few seconds to do that).

You said this before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta
But, the thing is, every time we make a character, are we gonna have to wait for some Anet employee to OK the name?

Of course not, Anet would never be stupid enough to do that (too costly). The OP suggests that accounts be banned on the basis of their random names if I'm not mistaken. Though there's also the possibility of simply forcing the gold-sellers to change their bot name, which would take them a lot of time on all the bot accounts they've got, which mean less time to scam our game

I've assumed that the OP wanted ANet to write a check before the name creation that would automatically know if the name was randomized or not. There would be no need for human distinction. And nobody that agrees with this has given any specification as to what is considered to be a random name. I don't even want an algorithm anymore, just give me a specification as to what is considered a random name.

Quote:

Yes you can, it's already the case for offensive names!

Furthermore, you're missing one point here: this would make the life of gold-spammers just a little bit more difficult (I guess you're not supporting them, are you?). And add one bit here and one bit there and their life can quickly become less financially interesting (if they have to do stuff that get in the way, for them it's all about maximizing their profit).

At the expense of the playerbase; restricting the name creation will hurt valid players. I've had gold spammers message me with perfectly valid names by the way. Chat filters and trial account restrictions are better solutions than name restrictions. This request is like saying the following: "Let's stop world hunger. It's easy, just give poor people more food."

HawkofStorms · Jan 31, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockmanHero

At the expense of the playerbase; restricting the name creation will hurt valid players. I've had gold spammers message me with perfectly valid names by the way. Chat filters and trial account restrictions are better solutions than name restrictions. This request is like saying the following: "Let's stop world hunger. It's easy, just give poor people more food."

Agreed.

My Character's name is "Tk Hawkins." TK is just a "random string of characters." But it is a name, used by people in RL.

And also, this wouldn't hurt bots. The whole "with more to do, the bots become less profitable" thing is bogus. Bots don't care about time (they farm and spam day and night). It would take only a couple of hours for some guy to program a way past the filter. Then they turn the bots back on again. Oh boy, you just stoped gold spammers for about an hour. How will thier buisness recover?
Gold sellers and bots work because they use large numbers and operate over long term periods of time. Any sort of restriction that "slows them down" isn't effective. They will just make more bots to compensate. You need a way to cut them out from the source.
It is like a virus. Treating the symptoms or finding ways to booast the immune system is a good way to hamper the viruses progress. But to stop it, you have to attack it dirrectly, and that means going after the trial account system.

Fril Estelin · Jan 31, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockmanHero

At the expense of the playerbase; restricting the name creation will hurt valid players. I've had gold spammers message me with perfectly valid names by the way. Chat filters and trial account restrictions are better solutions than name restrictions. This request is like saying the following: "Let's stop world hunger. It's easy, just give poor people more food."

I think you're completely confused about the message here!

Preventing non-sensical names is harming the playerbase? Woaw, you need a reality check. And please don't throw in hunger and poverty in the mix, it's a bit disgusting. We're talking about a game here, a game.

Well to gold-sellers this is more than a game, this is part of ther job! So they're leaving at our expense and they're the ones harming the playerbase (apparently, temple of balthazar is full of them).

Anyway, I'm afraid that we're soon starting to walk on our heads in this thread and I guess that giving any more explanation will actually be counter-productive. It's sad but sometimes you have to shut up to give a chance to other people's ideas.

Fril Estelin · Jan 31, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

AThe whole "with more to do, the bots become less profitable" thing is bogus.

No it's not. It's actually the smarter strategy as it's the one where you spread your weapons across a range of attacks (so to say of course), instead of attacking on one single point of failure. Plus gold-sellers rely heavily on a subtle economy of means so as to maximise profit. Change a few bits and they will start to loose profit (but still earn money) and interest.

OH and btw, TK Hawkins does not sound random to me. It's more "efowewrr qrnefugr" which sounds random.

Quote:

It would take only a couple of hours for some guy to program a way past the filter. Then they turn the bots back on again. Oh boy, you just stoped gold spammers for about an hour. How will thier buisness recover?

I was going to answer this point and the following ones (in particular the one about viruses as it's a bad analogy with the virtual world), but I'll just top right here, as I'm starting to be fed up with giving explanations.

Have a nice evening.

Velise_Snowtorm · Jan 31, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockmanHero

I've had gold spammers message me with perfectly valid names by the way.

This point is very valid. Yes a lot of bots use nonsensical names, but I've been gold-ad spammed recently by a name of Kiss You B B, which makes perfect since.

/notsigned, too ineffective in my opinion. I'd just as well make it so all Buddy keys are extremely restricted- can't trade, can't chat in Local, can't PM anyone unless someone PMs you first.

RandomRanger · Jan 31, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

/notsigned

As has been said not all names one person could consider to be "random" like are.

Example: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Yxthoshth

I suggest the 2 alternatives that have already been suggested

1. Add an option in the friends list to stop ALL players from PMing you unless they are on your friends list. Or in your guild. Or alliance.

2. Restrict trial accounts from PMing people.

RockmanHero · Jan 31, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I think you're completely confused about the message here!

Preventing non-sensical names is harming the playerbase? Woaw, you need a reality check. And please don't throw in hunger and poverty in the mix, it's a bit disgusting. We're talking about a game here, a game.

Well to gold-sellers this is more than a game, this is part of ther job! So they're leaving at our expense and they're the ones harming the playerbase (apparently, temple of balthazar is full of them).

Anyway, I'm afraid that we're soon starting to walk on our heads in this thread and I guess that giving any more explanation will actually be counter-productive. It's sad but sometimes you have to shut up to give a chance to other people's ideas.

I think your the one that's confused. The thread is about a potential solution to gold spammers, not gold spammers in general. Your speak as if I'm trying to defend gold spammers; however, my arguments are with this potential solution as a whole.

Quote:

OH and btw, TK Hawkins does not sound random to me. It's more "efowewrr qrnefugr" which sounds random.

Again, you just give examples; you and anyone else agreeing with this has NOT given me or anyone else a specification as to what is considered to be a random name. TK Hawkings is no more random than AV Lwokivcs. They both have the same number of letters and the same number of vowels. Just because you can't pronounce the second word doesn't mean it isn't a word. I raise another question that has already been asked here: Who are you or anybody else to determine what is random and what is not random? The english language is not the only language in the world. You do realize that in some countries, ! is a valid letter in a name right?

I still stand by my original argument that restricting trial accounts and having chat filters is a MUCH better solution to gold spamming.

raja · Jan 31, 2008, 08:04 PM // 20:04

/not signed
anyone could create their character with an "actual" name and still spam goldsites.

How about Anet doesn't allow www or .com in chatspeak. There will probably be people trying to "get around" the rules, but if Anet doesn't allow 3 consecutive www's or .com as a word, then it can cut down on the problems. The words such as competitive and competition would still be in use cause "com" is followed by more characters.

HawkofStorms · Jan 31, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Preventing non-sensical names is harming the playerbase? Woaw, you need a reality check. And please don't throw in hunger and poverty in the mix, it's a bit disgusting. We're talking about a game here, a game.

Hunger and poverty? What the heck are you talking about.

Preventing "non-sensical names" harms the player base because many people who aren't bots might have "non-sensical names." There is no fair way to design a program to check for "senicalness." And even IF such a program was developed, it would likely STILL ban several hundred accounts that aren't bots by mistake.

Furthermore, it wouldn't take long for bots to be reprogramed with an online dictionary to create random names out of actual words like "Napkin Hat" "Book Flamboyant" "Lamp Cellphone" ect. So it wouldn't actually DO anything.

Fril Estelin · Jan 31, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Hunger and poverty? What the heck are you talking about.

Re-read the message I was replying to.

(reprogramming bot with a dictionary means: 1) more work for bot programmers; 2) bot names are detectable)

RockmanHero · Jan 31, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Re-read the message I was replying to.

(reprogramming bot with a dictionary means: 1) more work for bot programmers; 2) bot names are detectable)

1) True.
2) I fail to see how this makes them detectable. I come up with goofy names all the time. So how does a name like Lamp Chair imply that the person is a bot?

Quote:

Hunger and poverty? What the heck are you talking about.

He was replying to a metaphor I made about this proposed solution which went right over his head.

Fril Estelin · Jan 31, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockmanHero

a metaphor ... which went right over his head.

My head is probably in a place where it can smell how a stinky metaphor that is.

RockmanHero · Jan 31, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

My head is probably in a place where it can smell how a stinky metaphor that is.

Not really. It's actually the same idea. You have an overall large problem and a solution is given which is silly and outrageous.

Saying 'give poor people more food' as the answer to world hunter is giving a solution but not giving how your actually going to get the food or who would pay for it all.

Saying 'ban randomized names' as the answer to gold spamming and botting is giving a solution but not giving how your actually going to determine what's random.

You're giving a vague and completely open-ended solution to a problem that would cause just as many problems as what you started with.

So answer my question. How does a name like 'Lamp Chair' or 'Cellphone Door' imply a bot or gold spammer. I created a character recently named 'I Collect Stuff.' I'm not a bot.

Darkhell153 · Jan 31, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

The only way to remove gold salesbot spammers is for Anet to update their ban systm to ban computer ID signatures or internet IP address ports from accessing the game. That way the advertiser would need a whole new computer to access the game...then that would get banned (goes down the line as it becomes increasingly costly or impractical for them to do it again.) Viola, a fix...still riddled with weak points but it's better then this idea by far.

(20 points for every insult in this thread)