Curse

Takeko Nakano · Jan 31, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I disagree with this petition. It doesn't take that much to get to rank 5. Just do the quests and a little monster hunting.

Also when you hand in a fully completed hero's handbook you will get 20,000 faction. When you add that to the rewards for completing the various quests that will get you over the threshold automatically.

Isileth · Jan 31, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

No, thats what you WANT.

The reasoning behind it (from what ive gathered from your posts)
is that, prestige armor is content and content should be accessible (i totally agree).

Of course its what I want.

Same as any suggestions here. Its what I feel would make the game better.
Then im stating my reasons and arguments why I feel that.

Same as others are stating why they dont want it changed and their reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I apologise if this sounds like calling you a lier, Im not! But how are you not at rank 5 on all (if not most) races by the end of the game.

Im just not

Its not as if I skipped chunks of content, I have done all but 2-3 quests. I just havent been farming rep, which is why its lower I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

When I finished on my ele in GWEN, I was rank 7 Norn (admittadly from the preview weekend), rank 5 drawf and rank 4 Ausura and Vanguard.

It only took me a few bounty runs AND paying to have my quest and dungeon booked filled in the once to meet the rest!

Thats kind of the point, even after finishing it you had to do "bounty runs" to get the rest.
As I said I have no problem doing something skill based or having to complete the main storyline. What I dont want is this grind that even having done most of the game im still left to do to gain access to the content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I appreciate its not always the same for everyone and I wouldn't expect people to have the exact playing experience. But it really isnt hard to get rank 5 on an individual character for all races in GWEN by the time you finish!

No its not hard, because its grinding. Grinding isnt hard. Even if you can only kill 1 enemy before you die you can still slowly grind it, no skill required.

Then take into account multiple chars as well, made even worse by the fact grind gets steadily worse the more times you do it.

Difficulty isnt the problem here, as I stated I would glady have it require some hard quest, but I dont want it to require grinding.

lyra_song · Jan 31, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Difficulty isnt the problem here, as I stated I would glady have it require some hard quest, but I dont want it to require grinding.

I've been trying to tell you, but grinding has ALWAYS been in Guild Wars.

The "no grind" policy doesn't apply to prestige items SINCE THE BEGINNING.

freekedoutfish · Jan 31, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Thats kind of the point, even after finishing it you had to do "bounty runs" to get the rest.
As I said I have no problem doing something skill based or having to complete the main storyline. What I dont want is this grind that even having done most of the game im still left to do to gain access to the content.

I think it depends on your perspective.

My way of looking at it is from an exploration view. I like to explore and so I took bounties while I did and that worked for me. I also really liked re-doing the snowman dungeon for drawf points.

I honestly dont feel GWEN has as much grind as people say.

It isnt a staggering amount of extra bounty hunting you need to do, to up ranks to 5. Obviously if you go beyond rank 5 like I did, it does become huge grind by comparison.

But the extra grind to get rank 5 really is tiny *does tiny sign with fingers*!

Isileth · Jan 31, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I've been trying to tell you, but grinding has ALWAYS been in Guild Wars.

The "no grind" policy doesn't apply to prestige items SINCE THE BEGINNING.

I disagree.

You didnt use to have things locked off because you hadnt grinded out enough rep points.

Yeah you needed gold and materials but those can be gained through normal playing of the game, no grind required unless you choose to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I think it depends on your perspective.

It deffinately does.
And as you know from other threads im against grind in other parts of the game as well, including the rep titles for the skills tied to them. So I would much rather see all the grind removed or an alternative provided.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

My way of looking at it is from an exploration view. I like to explore and so I took bounties while I did and that worked for me. I also really liked re-doing the snowman dungeon for drawf points.

I also like to explore and took bounties whenever I could. But I wouldnt re do the snowman dungeon over and over or grind an area for rep points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I honestly dont feel GWEN has as much grind as people say.

I did find it far to much for my liking sadly, as I said it would be nice to see an alternative. That way those that enjoy grinding can achieve things that way and those that want a more skill based apporach could go that route.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

It isnt a staggering amount of extra bounty hunting you need to do, to up ranks to 5. Obviously if you go beyond rank 5 like I did, it does become huge grind by comparison.

But the extra grind to get rank 5 really is tiny *does tiny sign with fingers*!

Perhaps not, but when you take into account multiple titles and multiple chars it gets pretty big.
Especially when the grind itself doesnt stop at R5 like you pointed out.

lyra_song · Jan 31, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

I disagree.

You didnt use to have things locked off because you hadnt grinded out enough rep points.

Yeah you needed gold and materials but those can be gained through normal playing of the game, no grind required unless you choose to.

Find me a person who didn't farm or power-traded, or chest-ran Or didn't do anything repetitive for FoW armor?

Lucky drops through normal player are certainly not NORMAL, otherwise they would have zero value.

Unlocking all skills. Unlocking all runes. Unlocking all mods. (all non-required for normal gameplay)

How many normal plays will it take to get all elite skills unlocked?
or do you have to do something repetitive, like capture elite skills?

How many normal gameplays does it take to get a 15^50 Eternal Bow? A Fellblade? All that steel required for that Grotto gladiator armor?

What about the fact that you still have to repeatedly get to those areas for multiple characters? Its not given to you.

Rank, Distance, Cost...all of these are barriers in the game. The only difference is what kind of barrier you enjoy conquering.

If you dont like it, its obviously not for you.

Some of us have no problems with it, and don't find anything wrong with it. If you want a change, you need to justify it to overcome OUR preferences and give us a better alternative.

Blu · Jan 31, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Its not that hard to max max out rep. titles (let alone get R5).

Anyway, here's my easy way to get a quick max rep. title in around 30 minutes or so! Here. ;p

Isileth · Jan 31, 2008, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Find me a person who didn't farm or power-traded, or chest-ran Or didn't do anything repetitive for FoW armor?

Lucky drops through normal player are certainly not NORMAL, otherwise they would have zero value.

Ive known 2 people in my old guild who didnt. Just played through the game, helped some guild members out when they needed it etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Unlocking all skills. Unlocking all runes. Unlocking all mods. (all non-required for normal gameplay)

These you can unlock as you use them. Even when I was trying out loads of new builds I never ran into the situation where I couldnt unlock more before I was done with the current build.
Gaining them doesnt require a grind, because again everything ingame helps towards them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How many normal plays will it take to get all elite skills unlocked?
or do you have to do something repetitive, like capture elite skills?

Apart from the few cases where a boss doesnt spawn you dont have to go to the same boss in the same area. You fight different enemies with different skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Rank, Distance, Cost...all of these are barriers in the game. The only difference is what kind of barrier you enjoy conquering.

I enjoy skill baed barriers, hence the reason I purchased the game that advertised skill>time in PvP and PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If you dont like it, its obviously not for you.

So what your suggesting is that I dont like it and would prefer something else? Perhaps I might go and start a thread suggesting it be changed....

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Some of us have no problems with it, and don't find anything wrong with it. If you want a change, you need to justify it to overcome OUR preferences and give us a better alternative.

Technically no I dont. Since its not you that makes the final decision.

But you of course can still give your opinion as I give mine. So I ask for your opinion on having a grind and skill based access to it?

Grind to R5 you get access.
Complete the storyline you get access.

Wouldnt change your gameplay at all. Would open up another route for others, seems win win to me.

Evaine · Jan 31, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

/notsigned

Just as in real life, if you want something bad enough then work for it.

lyra_song · Feb 01, 2008, 12:52 AM // 00:52

There is no skill based barrier in PvE.

Sorry to say it.

Thats why I don't mind the "grind" at all. The grind is so very minimal.

Anet has already addressed this by increasing the points given when you redeem the books.

Quit trying to shove a square peg in a round hole.

Prestige armor is not designed to be accessible instantly. Theres a reason prestige armor crafters are always later in the game in some out of way outpost, or after a boss battle, even FoW armor used to require favor of the gods.

GWEN is short, so to compensate for this, they artificially made the crafter "further away" by giving a rank requirement.

A rank that cannot be bought through ebay gold, Non-transferable and non-runnable. A rank only attainable through gameplay with that specific character.

It seems to me Anet went out of their way to make sure THERE WAS NO SHORTCUT.

If I were you, I'd complain about the quality of the armors and wether it was worth R5. And use that as a bulletpoint for reasoning to lessen or remove the grind.

And yes, theres such a thing as content NOT MADE for you. Like how PvErs and PvPers are always fighting. Theres MANY types of PvErs in this game, and theres content in the game for those types.

Alex Morningstar · Feb 01, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

I think you will find most people asking for this change dont want stuff easier. They just dont want grind.

I would support having harder enemies for example, but I wouldnt support needing KOABD to get armor.
Even if the grind isnt done away with at least give an option for non grind. Such as access to them if you complete the game. (The storyline)

If you beat GWEN, you can get the armor you want by turning in the book. It's pretty damn hard not to get rank 5 that way.

Operative 14 · Feb 01, 2008, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

That begs the queston, why are you playing a computer game if you only look at the entire thing as 0s and 1s?

I don't look at the entire thing as ones or zeros. All I was trying to do was point out that the idea of building 'respect' in a game is just as valid as comparing this game to real life. To each his own however; I was just trying to come at it from the another perspective.

Didn't you suggest, Fish, that they make they make these titles account based like, for example, the Luxon and Kurzick 'race' titles? That would be the perfect solution for me; as I said, I wouldn't mind having to work my way through the race titles once. On the contrary, I think that would be the best solution. People would still have to earn the respect of the various races, and I think I would have to agree with you that that is sort of a nice quality, RPG wise at least. The only problem I have with the current system is that you have to do it each time for each character, so it's kind of a duanting task if you have multiple characters that want one set of non Asuran GW:EN armor AND sunglasses.

-

I think it is worth mentioning that they answered this concern with the heros handbook. In the time since this thread was created, they upgraded them from 2,000 points each to 20,000 points each. Since then, its pretty much been a non-issue. At least until, for some strange reason, someone resurrected this thread from its four month slumber to say they thought it was a stupid idea.

I've 'grinded' my way to four and a half sets of 15k, a set of Vabbian, and I'm in the middle of working through GW:EN with my ranger to get Vanguard armor. All of this I did mostly by repetitively farming in Gates of Kryta and getting about 1k each run; you can do the math if you choose

. What I'm saying is I don't mind having to 'work' for my armor or my items. I don't mind spending weeks or months saving up currency to purchase a new set. It's just that the titles are an artificial, and up until GW:EN unnecessary, amount of extra work requirement that makes no sense if you compare it to the other three campaigns and the established way of GW. It represents a fundamental shift in the philosophy of GW and it developers, and how they thought peoples time in the game should be spent.

What I really hate about titles is that they cause divides. Take for example this topic; until GW:EN came out, no one ever had a second thought about how the armor system worked. Now we have a sixteen page thread that consists entirely of argument over a system that was established three years ago, and arbitrarily changed six months ago. Expanding on this, it seems like titles are always being argued over; one side wants to eliminate their idea of grind, another side scoffs at that idea and says there isn't enough grind. It widens the divide between the hardcore and the casual, which is something that in the original incarnation of GW was the antithesis of the game. There will be people that can work their way to rank 7 of the race titles in three days, and there will be people where getting to rank 5 will take upwards of two months. That didn't use to matter because there was no reward. Now it does.

lyra_song · Feb 01, 2008, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

There will be people that can work their way to rank 7 of the race titles in three days, and there will be people where getting to rank 5 will take upwards of two months. That didn't use to matter because there was no reward. Now it does.

If you're talking about PVE skill attribute, i would agree. That should be unlinked and instead attached to completion of GW:EN.

But Ranks 4 and 5 of the various title tracks in relation to the armorer and the crafter are all prestige items.
Being prestige items, theres "vanilla" versions of it.
Weapons can be crafted in many places. Armor can be crafted in many places.

The so called "cool" stuff requires time to gain access to. Just like any other prestige item.

The complaint stems from the fact that you cannot overcome this requirement with skill or money.

Creating a barrier based on skill/difficulty alienates the casual player.
Creating a barrier based on money alienates the casual player.
Creating a barrier based on time/grinding alienates the casual player.

But which of these can both be overcomed by a casual player EVENTUALLY? Time and Money.

Operative 14 · Feb 01, 2008, 08:24 AM // 08:24

That is very true. But I have to wonder; why, then, do we have people complaining about the requirement of a title, but before when we had purely money based limitations on prestige armors, no one complained about that? I think we can all agree, for the casual player and hardcore alike, it is harder and less fun to get 75k for any prestige set than it is to fulfill the 26k point race title requirement for the armors. And I also think it is prudent to note that I have yet to hear anyone complain that these sets cost 50k apiece.

I think it all boils down to the old cliche; it's the principle of the thing.

On top of an ordinary investment in currency, you also have to meet an artificial requirement to acquire these sets. For three years, and more considering the beta, GW set a precedent that all you had to do was scrounge the money and find the materials, and you were set. Now, for whatever reason (and I have yet to actually hear a good one), they changed that system. I think that for a lot of people, conscious of it or not, it has become just one more facet and justification of the fear that GW is becoming like every other grind based MMO. Not to mention what it bodes for GW2. Yes, this is probably a minor part of that argument when considering that it is merely a cosmetic reward compared to, say, Ursan Blessing. But still, it's just one more thing to throw on the heap to say GW equates 'Grind Wars'.

Mangione · Feb 01, 2008, 09:08 AM // 09:08

I got r5 in vanguard without grind.

I played the storyline (i did a couple of side quests too, didn't rush through the game just to reach armors *drool*, quests are very well designed and enjoyable, and have been able to see those wonderful scenaries in the game).

I turned the completed hero book (20k reputation).

To bring the other titles that were at r3 I just played the dungeons.
Then turned a full dungeon book and got way past the r5 in Asura.
(Just Slaver's exile gives what? 5k Norn the first time?)

Playing hard mode from then, will just raise levels above the r5.

To reach easy way the armors people do grind runs. But that's not needed at all.
The grind is there only if you don't want to play the game or want to reach levels after the 5th.

(and btw, if I want a primeval for my necro I must do all the NF storyline. Doesn't matter if I already did it with my dervish).

lyra_song · Feb 01, 2008, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

That is very true. But I have to wonder; why, then, do we have people complaining about the requirement of a title, but before when we had purely money based limitations on prestige armors, no one complained about that? I think we can all agree, for the casual player and hardcore alike, it is harder and less fun to get 75k for any prestige set than it is to fulfill the 26k point race title requirement for the armors. And I also think it is prudent to note that I have yet to hear anyone complain that these sets cost 50k apiece.

Because people could BORROW money. People could EBAY for money.

When the specific character actually has to gain access to it by themselves, it becomes a hassle...to you know...play the game.

People didn't complain AS MUCH because the workaround was simply to get money.

Money is easier to get. I can borrow money and ectos, or get donations, hell I COULD TAX MY ALLIANCE, get my fow, then pay my friends back. See? Easy.

Quote:

I think it all boils down to the old cliche; it's the principle of the thing.

Not really. The grind was always there. People just didn't see how blatantly obvious it is until its turned into a rank requirement.

You think its a principle when really, its a matter of convenience.

People don't want to feel like they are forced to do something.
People want more choices.

In reality, if you want a prestige item, you have to do something to get it.

GWEN simply narrows your choices of what you can do, removing the ability to gain access through outside help.

If someone wants to tag along and do stuff WITH you, they can, but they can't do the grinding and then transfer points to you.

The character has to do it.

And the fact that you can't run these things makes it oh so much more restricted.

Quote:

On top of an ordinary investment in currency, you also have to meet an artificial requirement to acquire these sets. For three years, and more considering the beta, GW set a precedent that all you had to do was scrounge the money and find the materials, and you were set. Now, for whatever reason (and I have yet to actually hear a good one), they changed that system. I think that for a lot of people, conscious of it or not, it has become just one more facet and justification of the fear that GW is becoming like every other grind based MMO. Not to mention what it bodes for GW2. Yes, this is probably a minor part of that argument when considering that it is merely a cosmetic reward compared to, say, Ursan Blessing. But still, it's just one more thing to throw on the heap to say GW equates 'Grind Wars'.

Get the money and materials.
Now go buy Primieval armor.

But you have to get to the end of nightfall first.

What difference is that from a rank requirement? Distance is just as artificial as a rank requirement, but even more linear. Its just as restricted.

Just the illusion of grind vs the illusion of non-grind.

Beat Factions -> Access armors
Beat Nightfall-> Access armors
Beat GWEN (and by beating GWEN, you gain rank)-> Access armors

Since EOTN's storyline branches out, you need a non-linear way to track progress. Hence title tracks.

I don't know about you...but beating the game over and over just to get the armor crafter in the end seems like a grind to me, regardless of which chapter I'm in (like Factions for example....).

deadman_uk · Feb 01, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

/unsigned. It makes you appreciate the armor since you have to work for it a bit harder.

freekedoutfish · Feb 01, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

There is a good point that atleast GWEN armor can't be ebayed and requires effort from no one except the individual player to get it. Or atleast for the points.

lietzaum · Feb 01, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

why are we still on this guildwars is not going to change something they already made 10 times easier to get with uping the rep points from Just Playing The Game i know i am going to get flamed for this but for the people that signed this page be patient and you will get it don't be in a rush to get everything

Alex Morningstar · Feb 01, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Before you read the below, mind you, I only skimmed the first few pages. I wasn't going to read 13 pages of this bullshit when it's all going to be the same anyway.

Briefly glancing through this post, I see a lot of the following:

Anti Rank Req:
Rank 5 is too high
Rank 5 is too much grind
GW shouldn't be about grind
Armor should be able to be purchased by anyone who has the outpost and the money
"Just to get a damn armor I have to grind through the whole story to fill up a hero book? wtf is that."

Pro Rank Req:
Cannot be purchased by EBayers
Not hard to get rank 5; just play the game and turn in a book.
You do not need to buy this armor, it is not a requirement.
The armor isn't hard to get, it just takes effort.
Work for your armor, you lazy bastards
Anyone who thought it wouldn't be a grind game by now is a sucker.

Lets look at some facts:
Vanguard:
Search for the Ebon Vanguard 250
The Missing Vanguard 1000
Assault on the stronghold 1000
Against the char 1000
Dawn of the Rebellion 250
what must be done 250
Warband of Brothers 1500
-------------
Total points after finishing - 5250

Asura:
Knowledgable Asura 1000
Finding the Bloodston 3000
Finding Gadd 250
The elusive geomancer 3000
Lab space 250
A little help 250
G.O.L.E.M 1500
-------------
Total points after finishing - 9250

Norn:
Northen allies 1000
Tracking the nornbear 250
Curse of the nornbear 1000
Flames of the bear spirit 250
Blood washes blood 500
A gate too far 1000
-------------
Total points after finishing - 4000

Deldrimore:
A time for heroes 5000
Against the destoryers 1000
Destruction's depths 3000
Heart of the shiverpeaks 1750
-------------
Total points after finishing - 10750

Rank 5 is 26k points in a given reputation rank. A hero's handbook will give you 20,000 points.

By end game, you can have a minimum in your chosen rank of:
Vanguard 25250
Asura 29250
Norn 24000
Deldrimor 30750

If you can't get Rank 5, it's because you are too lazy to just play the damn game. No grind is necessary, as you will get 26k just playing. Yeah, you might have to remember to get a bounty or *gasp* do a side quest or two to get the points for Norn/Vanguard, but seriously. That isn't grind. You want to go see grind, play WoW. Until then, quit crying. Most of the retarded 13 year olds in this game have no trouble doing it, so neither should you.

When playing the game becomes grinding, you can't just format your harddrive and destroy any OS disks you own.