Curse

Kanyatta · Jan 30, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Even the Grotto/Citadel armors is a grind.
UAX'ing is a grind..

15k armor is only a grind if you want to farm for it. I got 15k armor on my Ranger by doing missions, saving gold, and using the merch. Not grinding.

I got UAX by doing GvG, which isn't a grind. Every match is different, which is what makes it appealing to me (IMO, it's the only part of the game left that's really worth experiencing).

Sometimes, I'd like to get armors and stuff without using the same formula over and over... and over... and over: talk to the NPC's at the rez shrine, and wipe an area full of NM monsters, lather, rinse, repeat.

Seriously, if I have the money, what more do you want? If you want to require a title for armor, why not just have a little timer next to the price at the NPC? Like,

"Asuran Cuirass 5k, 150 Iron Ingots, 15 Steel Ingots, 7 h 43 mins of farming remaining."

and just have it count down until you have the required number of farming hours.

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Um...what if i forget something and have to leave Fissure of Woe?
Oh wait...I have to repeat it again dont i?

Oh come now. You know full well that would be the player not the game requiring them to repeat an area.
Please lets not sink down into silly arguments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How many times do you have to go into UW and FoW to have enough ectos and shards, or how many hours of farming, or trading or chest running do you need to do?

Possibly none.
If you happen to get a good drop(s) you can make enough money to afford it before you even reach it.

But even should you reach there with 0 gold you can get that without grinding. The thing with making gold is pretty much any activity allows you to get it. So at no point would you have to repeat stuff.

For example you do some runs, do some HM, do some trading, cap some skills etc. Of course you can pick any of these you want and not have to repeat them.

Unlike rep points that are tied to very small areas of the game and require you to repeat parts of the game to aquire more.
For example I cant choose to go off and do Proph while still getting points, I cant go and trade and still get points, I cant go and do some PvP and still gets points.

bpphantom · Jan 30, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Um...what if i forget something and have to leave Fissure of Woe?
Oh wait...I have to repeat it again dont i?

How many times do you have to go into UW and FoW to have enough ectos and shards, or how many hours of farming, or trading or chest running do you need to do?

Face it. The grind is there.

Its a different type of grind, and may appeal to a different user, but its STILL a grind.

However Anet designed the barrier to access something, theres a barrier there. You need to look through the transparency and see the design of things instead of looking so blindly at the surface.

Fine, fine. Barrier. Can't start life as a successful CEO out of Kindergarten. Yada yada yada.

Go make a game that hands everyone anything they want for only a few hours invested per month. Yup. That's enjoyable. "Huh, I logged in and made level 2. I moved and made level 3. I opened my inventory and made level 4 and was handed top end gear of every skin I could possibly hope for."

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

15k armor is only a grind if you want to farm for it. I got 15k armor on my Ranger by doing missions, saving gold, and using the merch. Not grinding.

According to our buddy Isileth, doing anything repetitive is a grind.

Guild Wars missions are basically:
-Go from point A to point B (sometimes with a time limit)
-Kill C
-Keep D from dying.

How repetitive is that? No matter how you dress it up, its all the same.

Quote:

I got UAX by doing GvG, which isn't a grind. Every match is different, which is what makes it appealing to me (IMO, it's the only part of the game left that's really worth experiencing).

Oh really? So you're telling me the goals in GvG are different each time?

Break it down it falls into a few basic goals. Kill the Guild Lord, or kill the other team so they cannot ressurect, or make them quit.

THATS IT.

How you choose to do that is up to you, and thats whats fun. But you can't deny that one way or another, you're basically doing the same thing, in different ways.

Quote:

Sometimes, I'd like to get armors and stuff without using the same formula over and over... and over... and over: talk to the NPC's at the rez shrine, and wipe an area full of NM monsters, lather, rinse, repeat.

Which is basically what youve been doing in your missions.

Quote:

Seriously, if I have the money, what more do you want? If you want to require a title for armor, why not just have a little timer next to the price at the NPC? Like,

"Asuran Cuirass 5k, 150 Iron Ingots, 15 Steel Ingots, 7 h 43 mins of farming remaining."

and just have it count down until you have the required number of farming hours.

Because a countdown is not gameplay....

edit: You forget the major weakness of gold as a means of prestige, Isileth. It's transferable.

A player with FOW armor is indicative of time spent, but not neccesarily by that player.

A lvl 5 Asuran ranked Warrior gained that only through gameplay through THAT character. That is the design. That is the purpose.

Money becomes meaningless if you don't play the game to reach the rank required.

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

According to our buddy Isileth, doing anything repetitive is a grind.

Guild Wars missions are basically:
-Go from point A to point B (sometimes with a time limit)
-Kill C
-Keep D from dying.

How repetitive is that? No matter how you dress it up, its all the same.

Oh really? So you're telling me the goals in GvG are different each time?

Break it down it falls into a few basic goals. Kill the Guild Lord, or kill the other team so they cannot ressurect, or make them quit.

THATS IT.

Now in both of those cases does exactly the same thing happen everytime?
No, of course it doesnt.

Each mission is different. Different enemies, different goals etc
GvG along with any PvP is always different because unlike AI players wont do the exact same thing each time.

Each game is different. Different players, different builds, different maps, different tactics, different outcomes, completely different play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How you choose to do that is up to you, and thats whats fun. But you can't deny that one way or another, you're basically doing the same thing, in different ways.

In that case almost everything can be classed as grind.
Playing golf on different courses? Well you swing the same clubs and the goal is the same so the experience is obviousely the same.
Lets ignore all the different things however, the different shots you need to play, the different conditions etc. Its basically the same thing right?

The problem is, in a game nothing changes when AI is concerned.

They will spawn in the same spot, use the exact same skills, patrol the same routes. It will always be the same.

Shadowmoon · Jan 30, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

problem has been fixed with the buff to handbooks
do all teh missions, get 25k faction, turn it in for what faction u want, get armor. Want it for 2 factions, do all teh dungeons, they give 30k faction. Want all 4 faction, well guess what, there HM versions of both. There you go, you can get all 4 armor without having to repeat (grind) anything.

Reinfire · Jan 30, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

/not signed

You can pretty much have all 4 titles on r5 by barely grinding at all. Just do every quest and dungeon and you are pretty much there. I did 15/18 dungeons so far and I got r4, r4, r6 and r7. I did do some grind but only on the r7 title (dwarf)

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Now in both of those cases does exactly the same thing happen everytime?
No, of course it doesnt.

Each mission is different. Different enemies, different goals etc
GvG along with any PvP is always different because unlike AI players wont do the exact same thing each time.

Each game is different. Different players, different builds, different maps, different tactics, different outcomes, completely different play.

In that case almost everything can be classed as grind.
Playing golf on different courses? Well you swing the same clubs and the goal is the same so the experience is obviousely the same.
Lets ignore all the different things however, the different shots you need to play, the different conditions etc. Its basically the same thing right?

The problem is, in a game nothing changes when AI is concerned.

They will spawn in the same spot, use the exact same skills, patrol the same routes. It will always be the same.

It is all the same.

It doesn't matter what factors you do to mix it up, in the end, its all the same.

Golf is golf and all the rules are the same. Get the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes.

The problem is not that there is a grind.
The problem is that the grind doesn't appeal to you.

Therefore the SOLUTION is not to remove the grind, but to make it MORE FUN to appeal to more player types.

As other have pointed out, the BOOKS have been buffed to hell already. I personally don't do the books since dungeons bore me, and mindless grinding is much more relaxing.

ShadowsRequiem · Jan 30, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

/signed

This is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing joke really. Just to get a damn armor I have to grind through the whole story to fill up a hero book? wtf is that.

quickmonty · Jan 30, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpphantom

Go make a game that hands everyone anything they want for only a few hours invested per month. Yup. That's enjoyable. "Huh, I logged in and made level 2. I moved and made level 3. I opened my inventory and made level 4 and was handed top end gear of every skin I could possibly hope for."

Unfortunately, that seems to be what a lot of people are asking for.

In the 32 months that I have been playing GW I have seen things getting easier all the time. Heroes (luv 'em) Consumables (I don't use them) and a host of other things.

The other night I helped a guildy cap Avatar of Balthazar. I told him how difficult it was, remembering that the fort always seemed to empty out and come straight at the party when you got too close. This time it was easy. Balthazar marched out flanked by just two rangers and we pwnd him rather easily.

Getting reputation up high enough to get the GWEN armors is a 'walk in the park'. But why even bother walking in the park when we can sit on the park bench and have the armor delivered?

Please don't bother quoting this post. I've been following this thread for a while and just felt like putting in my 2 cents before I move on.

Lishy · Jan 30, 2008, 08:26 PM // 20:26

The armor is expensive enough as it is and eye of the north is pretty short.
Maybe if we have more access to things instead of doing stuff you never get a chance to do, people would play eye of the north more.

I think the ranks should simply be lower requirements ,since it is really boring to grind your titles.
Guild wars is a strategy rpg.Not an mmo.I hope Anet didn't forget that.

/sort of signed

Jake_Steel · Jan 30, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

/notsigned

Would sort of ruin the point of those Merchants if you ask me.

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

It is all the same.

It doesn't matter what factors you do to mix it up, in the end, its all the same.

Golf is golf and all the rules are the same. Get the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes.

Are you actually suggesting that true? That because some things dont change nothing changes?

Are you saying playing on a different golf course doesnt have a single effect on playing golf?

In that case everyones life is the same. I mean your born, you live you die right.
Lets ignore all the details and things that change and make it different.

Yes the very core of each mission is the same. The core being that its GW.
But the enemes you face change.
The map you are on changes.
The goals change.

Unless you are suggesting that fighting a warrior in a pool of lava is the same gameplay as fighting a team of monks in a forest....

Its quite obvious there is a difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The problem is not that there is a grind.
The problem is that the grind doesn't appeal to you.

Therefore the SOLUTION is not to remove the grind, but to make it MORE FUN to appeal to more player types.

Actually the fact there is grind is the problem.
It makes it boring skill less gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

Getting reputation up high enough to get the GWEN armors is a 'walk in the park'. But why even bother walking in the park when we can sit on the park bench and have the armor delivered?

What people seem to be missing is that this isnt asking to make the game easier. I for one think it is far to easy.

And I think the grind titles are part of that problem.
They are all completely time based. You dont need skill to get them.

I would much rather see the game get a lot harder and require skill>time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

Please don't bother quoting this post. I've been following this thread for a while and just felt like putting in my 2 cents before I move on.

Sorry

But if you read it or not doesnt matter, its there for others to read as well.

Reptile · Jan 30, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

/not signed

If you really want something, work for it. It will make having it mean more.

Tyla · Jan 31, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

/signed
I don't wanna grind books out just for my armour.

Tender Wolf · Jan 31, 2008, 01:35 AM // 01:35

/signed

I think it's stupid how they set it up to where you'd have to grind in the first place just for armor (especially reskinned). I think half the reason most people bought GWEN was because of the new armors, and then they found out you have to be a certain rank to even SEE them, plus they're reskins. Totally stupid.

cellardweller · Jan 31, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I'm very anti-grind and I don't subscribe to the whole "work for it" motto, but really, since they upped the book rewards I don't really see the need to change this. Finish the game hand in your books and you'll be at L5 without having to grind at all.

Tender Wolf · Jan 31, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm very anti-grind and I don't subscribe to the whole "work for it" motto, but really, since they upped the book rewards I don't really see the need to change this. Finish the game hand in your books and you'll be at L5 without having to grind at all.

True but who wants to do the GWEN quests 500 times for points? In a way it's still grinding.

Steps_Descending · Jan 31, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

ok ....

1 way to go is clearing zones, in NM (easy) you get 5k in 1.5 hour (the time of a run for me with non-optimal builds). r5 is 26k faction, you can get r2 or r3 with just the campaign (that'S 18 to 22k in faction for r5), so you need... 6 hours to get he armor (just the time needed to get to know the run well enough). the minimum play-time is 1.5 hour, if you think that's too much for you in 1 session : go play faction : that and prophecy are teh only GW you have the time to play.

1 full hero hand book is 20k, 5 pages are present in new books (16page -5 = 11 pages).
So 1 book gives you the armor... 11 quest at 2 quest /1.5 hour (the general time for a mission if you DONT have optimal tactic) : that's 7 hour.
first off : 7 hour of playtime is NOT heavy-grind. Second, you need to at least play 3/4 hour per play-session, if you think that is too much :
go back to play counter stryke, but be carefull: you need to grind for your money!

Some people put more value in an item if it's not giving freely to them.
Not willing to play for your pretty skin ? bye bye!

/NOTSIGNED (if it's still needed)

John Panda · Jan 31, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

as much as i'd like to have my work cut out for me..

/notsigned.