Curse

Kanyatta · Jan 30, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

What does buying a tv have any relation to a video game?

Why don't you come up with a game related analogy?

Lets do another game.

Guitar Hero 3

Guitar Hero 3 has a store. You can buy costumes, guitars, new songs, etc from the store.

But not everything is available all at once.

In order to buy certain things like Slash or Tom Morello as playable chars, or new guitars, you actually have to...you know....play the game....and get to certain achievement plateaus.

The more you play, the more stuff becomes available...

This is a classic game design which is built on rewarding gameplay.

OK, let's use your analogy. Only the really expensive (for lack of a better word) stuff like, The Log guitar, and such, do you have to actually play through the game to get. The rest goes by, as long as you have the money, you can buy it.

Oh, and by the way, it takes about 20 minutes of playing to get to Tom Morello and beat him, which isn't much of an accomplishment. Whereas, it could take about 4 hours (at least) to get r5 Asuran or something. The only thing on Guitar Hero that takes that long is getting 5 stars on every song on Expert.

freekedoutfish · Jan 30, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

OK, let's use your analogy. Only the really expensive (for lack of a better word) stuff like, The Log guitar, and such, do you have to actually play through the game to get. The rest goes by, as long as you have the money, you can buy it.

Oh, and by the way, it takes about 20 minutes of playing to get to Tom Morello and beat him, which isn't much of an accomplishment. Whereas, it could take about 4 hours (at least) to get r5 Asuran or something. The only thing on Guitar Hero that takes that long is getting 5 stars on every song on Expert.

Yes but its understandable that things are going to be a lot faster to unlock in GH2 or GH3 compared to an RPG/MMO. So that isnt a valid counter arguement. If things are as easily unlocked in GWs as in GH then the game would have no replayability at all.

All RPG inherantly have items of some kind in them, which take a lot of time to unlock. Its nothing new or something Anet decided to add just to annoy us. Its just an aspect of an RPG and a computer game.

I actually like the GH comparison, because it hits the nail on head. The only real difference is you can enter a cheat into GH to get that things without trying.

Which I did

At the end of the day right.... you have countless alternative normal and elite armors and other weapons which only require gold and materials. And you all want to complain because five others require a bit more effort?

I find that extremely ungratefull myself. 99% of things in this game are EXTREMELY easy to attain, including most armor and most weapons. Anet gives most things away on a silver platter and just because a tiny few require a rank to unlock is nothing!

Its not enough to cause a huge storm over!

There needs to be some armor and weapons ingame, which require a bit more effort! It doesnt hurt anyone, and it adds a bit more prestige to those sets and sets them apart from other elite sets.

I notice no one complains that destroyer gaunlets require 25 destroyer cores, or that the glowing gloves require a lot of ectos. That puts them out of reach of a lot of casual players who can't afford them and don't have the time to save up or farm.

Yet they dont complain!

Its never the poor people who complain in my experience, and always the rich who feel their being ripped off because they cant easily spend all their endless wealth because someone/something is blocking it... like effort.

All while the poor sit back and accept they will never afford obsideon armor or prestige armor.

pumpkin pie · Jan 30, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Lets relocated the Eternal Forgemaster to Kamadan

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

OK, let's use your analogy. Only the really expensive (for lack of a better word) stuff like, The Log guitar, and such, do you have to actually play through the game to get. The rest goes by, as long as you have the money, you can buy it.

Oh, and by the way, it takes about 20 minutes of playing to get to Tom Morello and beat him, which isn't much of an accomplishment. Whereas, it could take about 4 hours (at least) to get r5 Asuran or something. The only thing on Guitar Hero that takes that long is getting 5 stars on every song on Expert.

Yes but the expensive stuff cannot be bought WITHOUT PLAYING THE GAME AND EARNING MONEY.

Hence the inherent nature of a prestige item. GRIND

Get it?

Prestige = Grind

It doesn't matter HOW LONG it takes. There will always be a barrier there.

For Guitar Hero, the time it takes to grind fits the gameplay style.

even if you took away the title grind, theres stil the price and material grind.

It is, in its inherent design, a GRIND.

None of the things in Guitar Hero can make you a better player. Its all cosmetic. This is why I chose this as a comparison.

All the money you spent is in the end, just proof that you beat the game, or that you have a lot of game cash.

freekedoutfish · Jan 30, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Yeah but if you fail pretty much everyone is doomed anyways.

At the end of the day they are sending you on a quest to go and save them all from destruction, why would they not offer as much support as possible?
Its not a case of, well if he fails we wont have to sell him our precious armor.
Its a case of, well if he fails we're all buggered.

Your making wild assumptions now and over complicating this arguement. Its just a game and you need to making statements like "oh but if they fail" or "why would they send someone they dont know".

Its simply a mechanism to allow the player to prove their respect for that race. Whether the quest makes sense or not, means nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Not everyone has max armor and weapons at that point.

You seem to be avoiding one major point about GWs. Max armor in prophercies, factions and NF is only 1.5k for normal max armor and the weapon are just as cheap.

You also have the weapons bonus pack to get max weapons on demand and the GWEN pre-order weapons if you got them too. All done from /bonus.

A player is in NO position to enter GWEN and then complain they cant get max gear. Not when they can simply go back to their original campaign and pick up max weapons and armor very cheaply and easily.

If they choose to enter GWEN with non-max armor and rely on the Norn, Asura, Drawf or Vanguard to get it and then complain about rank 5s... their being a bit daft.

There are countless alternative places to get cheap max gear from GWs!

If you know your havent got max gear and you havent got rank 5, and you want max gear and dont feel you can do GWEN without it.... who in their right mind doesnt think...

"ohh hang on.. why dont I go get some cheap 1.5k stuff before I go in there".

... I actually have my lvl 18 warrior in GWEN right now, with lvl50 armor and he hasnt died once and hes about 90% way to survivor. All with the aid of lvl20 heroes and henches.

And im a useless warrior! I fully admit that.

GWEN isnt hard enough that it demand max armor.

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

GWEN isnt hard enough that it demand max armor.

Theres always this guy:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jolvor_Stoneforge

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Your making wild assumptions now and over complicating this arguement. Its just a game and you need to making statements like "oh but if they fail" or "why would they send someone they dont know".

Its simply a mechanism to allow the player to prove their respect for that race. Whether the quest makes sense or not, means nothing.

Oh im well aware but I was just making a point from a RP view, since using outside examples isnt valid apparantly

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Yes but the expensive stuff cannot be bought WITHOUT PLAYING THE GAME AND EARNING MONEY.

Hence the inherent nature of a prestige item. GRIND

Get it?

Prestige = Grind

It doesn't matter HOW LONG it takes. There will always be a barrier there.

For Guitar Hero, the time it takes to grind fits the gameplay style.

even if you took away the title grind, theres stil the price and material grind.

It is, in its inherent design, a GRIND.

None of the things in Guitar Hero can make you a better player. Its all cosmetic. This is why I chose this as a comparison.

All the money you spent is in the end, just proof that you beat the game, or that you have a lot of game cash.

Thats not correct.

Playing the game is not grind. Having to repeat the same bit of the game over and over is grind.

How long it takes or if it gives an advantage or not is irrelevant.
Its that it takes grind to access. I have no problem at all with something being access through skill, or a skill based alternative perhaps. But locking stuff and requiring grind to access it doesnt make for fun gameplay (If you need what is unlocked doesnt matter, since you dont need anything, to complete a mission or even play the game isnt required. But everything is part of the game.)

Nodensis · Jan 30, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

/not signed

by playing the game and handing in your hero's handbook, you can have the armor you like (no grinding). if you want more armors, thats luxury and can be linked to some grinding.

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Playing the game is not grind. Having to repeat the same bit of the game over and over is grind.

Hmn...Guitar hero in Easy, medium and hard mode is playing the same songs OVER AND OVER. Ya thats a grind.

But wait....isn't that the point? Grinding can be fun you know...

Quote:

But locking stuff and requiring grind to access it doesnt make for fun gameplay (If you need what is unlocked doesnt matter, since you dont need anything, to complete a mission or even play the game isnt required. But everything is part of the game.)

Locking stuff off with a grind requirement is no different than locking it with a geographic barrier in the game. It just takes time to get there.

It is a barrier thats designed to be beaten by gameplay.
It's not some magical impossible thing designed to stop players.
Just play the GOREDING game and you'll get past it.

Besides, grinding can be fun. AB is a grind, but I LOVE IT. Farming is a grind, but I find it relaxing when I'm in the right mood.

The problem isn't that theres a grind. The problem is the grind doesn't appeal to YOU.

Everything is accessible to those who earned it. Some parts of the games are designed to reward grindy gameplay.

The whole "accessible to casual players" doesn't apply when the content is designed to be grinded. Those two things cannot be reconciled.

For example: Hero Title track, FoW Armor

Not everything can appeal to everyone. This is just a fact. Guild Wars appeals to many types of players so theres many types of content. Choose the content that appeals to you and stop trying to change stuff not designed for you.

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The problem isn't that theres a grind. The problem is the grind doesn't appeal to YOU.

You know what?

You are exactly right.

Thats why I purchased a game that said on the box

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Prophecies Box

You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Thats why I purchased a game that said on the box

Your armor's skin is IRRELEVANT IN BATTLE.

If you need armor in GWEN so badly i mentioned it already.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jolvor_Stoneforge

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Your armor's skin is IRRELEVANT IN BATTLE.

If you need armor in GWEN so badly i mentioned it already.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jolvor_Stoneforge

Does it only matter when it gives you an advantage?

Of course not, thats part of the game still.

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Does it only matter when it gives you an advantage?

Of course not, thats part of the game still.

Your quote from the box directly applies to BATTLE.
Armor performs the same, regardless of the skin. With the addition of insignias, this is even MORE obvious.
In fact, i'd even go as far to say that the quote really only applies to PvP (thanks to PvE skills imbalancing things).

"Its part of the game, so i should have access to it"

Yes its part of the game. Just as PvP is part of the game and PvE is part of the game.

Some people like PvP.
Some people like PvE.
Some people HATE PvP.
Some people HATE PvE.

Guess what, its all part of the same game.

And guess what else?

Everyone has equal access to it if they did what was needed to get there.

And guess what else?

Not everyone is going to be able to access all it because the means to get to it do not appeal to them.

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

The difference there is GW was advertised as a game with PvP and PvE. People knew that when they purchased it. It wasnt however advertised as a game you had to grind to access content, infact quite the opposite, it was advertised as a game where that wouldnt happen.

***edit***

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Your quote from the box directly applies to BATTLE.
Armor performs the same, regardless of the skin. With the addition of insignias, this is even MORE obvious.
In fact, i'd even go as far to say that the quote really only applies to PvP (thanks to PvE skills imbalancing things).

It only applies to PvP?

I shall give you the full quote

Quote:

Your skill will be your legend
You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate. Whether battling horrific monsters or competing at the highest levels of tournament play, it will always be your skill that earns you victory or defeat.

Quite cleary it applies to both PvP and PvE.

As for it just being about battles, yes that specific quote is. But in many interviews and when they have been quoted in gaming mags/sites they discuss how the whole of the game wouldnt require grind. That nothing would be locked off based on grind but instead the whole game would be skill based.

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

The difference there is GW was advertised as a game with PvP and PvE. People knew that when they purchased it. It wasnt however advertised as a game you had to grind to access content, infact quite the opposite, it was advertised as a game where that wouldnt happen.

Well guess what?

Theres people who like grind who moved into Guild Wars.

And Anet added content to appeal to them.

Mmkay?

Think about it though.....FOW/Obsidian armor has been in the game since early on.

Even the Grotto/Citadel armors is a grind.
UAX'ing is a grind.

You can't tell me grind didn't exist before GWEN? Or are you just that naive.

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Think about it though.....FOW/Obsidian armor has been in the game since early on.

That is only a grind if you chose to make it so.
Actual access to it is skill based due to reaching the crafter.
Affording it does not have to be grind based unless you choose to farm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You can't tell me grind didn't exist before GWEN? Or are you just that naive.

At what point did I every say anything like that?
It just happens this specific thread is about the GWEN armor, not that its the only grind based content in the game.

Gregslot · Jan 30, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

No armor in the game really requires skills.
I see loads of retarded people that farmed like... retarded... with their fow armor dyed black that seriously have no skill at all.

So if the most wanted/expensive armor doesnt really require skill to get it, why should they change the system for less important armors?

Yes, it is a "fail" (like you like to say it) but there isnt really much we can do now.. after almost 3 years.

And try to play some dungeons, some quests to see what are they about, and you will get your rank5, thats how i got mine (and i dont even want these titles)

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

That is only a grind if you chose to make it so.
Actual access to it is skill based due to reaching the crafter.
Affording it does not have to be grind based unless you choose to farm.

*sigh*

Reaching the crafter involves killing lots of monsters.

Reaching the rank to crafte GWEN armor involves killing lots of monsters.

Don't you get it?

The LOCATION of the crafters for the prestige armors in GWEN are relatively easy to get to.
But they do not give you access until you reach a certain title rank.

This is no different than taking the crafter and putting him in some far off distance area where you have to slog through 300000 enemies to reach them.

Anet simply cheated and artificially made them near...yet far without actually putting them far away.

Exact same thing with the FoW Armorer.

How can you not see that? The FoW armor requires more time through rare materials, but the GWEN armor requires more time in rank, either way, ITS TIME SPENT.

The grind is there.

Isileth · Jan 30, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

*sigh*

Reaching the crafter involves killing lots of monsters.

Reaching the rank to crafte GWEN armor involves killing lots of monsters.

Don't you get it?

The LOCATION of the crafters for the prestige armors in GWEN are relatively easy to get to.
But they do not give you access until you reach a certain title rank.

This is no different than taking the crafter and putting him in some far off distance area where you have to slog through 300000 enemies to reach them.

Anet simply cheated and artificially made them near...yet far without actually putting them far away.

Exact same thing with the FoW Armorer.

How can you not see that?

Thats not at all the same.

Getting to the crafter requires you to only complete each area required once.
At no point are you required to go back and repeat areas just to access it.

Getting rep points requires you to repeat areas.

Now for example if you didnt get access to them till you beat the game that would be fine. Because thats a skill based achievement.

But currently you are required to repeat areas or grind to access it.

lyra_song · Jan 30, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isileth

Thats not at all the same.

Getting to the crafter requires you to only complete each area required once.
At no point are you required to go back and repeat areas just to access it.

Getting rep points requires you to repeat areas.

Now for example if you didnt get access to them till you beat the game that would be fine. Because thats a skill based achievement.

But currently you are required to repeat areas or grind to access it.

Um...what if i forget something and have to leave Fissure of Woe?
Oh wait...I have to repeat it again dont i?

How many times do you have to go into UW and FoW to have enough ectos and shards, or how many hours of farming, or trading or chest running do you need to do?

Face it. The grind is there.

Its a different type of grind, and may appeal to a different user, but its STILL a grind.

However Anet designed the barrier to access something, theres a barrier there. You need to look through the transparency and see the design of things instead of looking so blindly at the surface.