Curse

Solas · Feb 03, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

and now : without Ursan you don't get in.(and 90% of gw population don't have it maxed out)

but thats not my point.
it's the buildmaking which has dumbened down....and i don't like that.
skills should be balanced. (and the only way to do that is compare them against each other =PVP)

1.you dont need ursan maxed,
2.The people that dont have ursan are back with the in days of pugs, you know the time when "people used real builds" - i'll get the right quote in a while
3. Most people are uncreative because they tried to make a build and there one was surpassed by a wiki build or wiki builds are already there with approval

I couldnt remember the last time i had fun with a pug until i DoA ursan, ye can call it noob and all that but really, i'd much rather have fun, high success rate and be fast then do some lame hiding behind a wall for 2 hours nuking.

btw Build Making isn't dead, jsut slowing down, 1 year with nf skills and it slows down i guess,

zwei2stein · Feb 03, 2008, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

.... from your argument, I see otherwise, and here's a breakdown of it. (The brackets are used to isolate the propositions you have assumed in your argument.)

(I don't like the skill Ursan Blessing.)
(I believe that everyone uses Ursan Blessing.)
If the rest of the community decides that the only way to do something is using Ursan Blessing, this skill should not be ignored.
(And so it should be nerfed.)

As we notice here, what you are saying is basically you do not like this skill, and you believe that everyone are using it, which has not been proven. Therefore, based on your belief, Ursan should be nerfed. In simple terms, as I have stated earlier that you do not have any powers into making this decision, you are not here to convince anyone the logical views to what Ursan applies to the game or stating your opinion, but instead, you are forcing your morals down to other people's throats as you believe it is the only correct way to play the game the way you believe is right. That, however, is not true.

What?

I have to grant you, you are awesome at making non-sequitor slash strawman arguments.

Now seriously, how did you come come to that bracketed statements? Wishfull thinking?

lets break it down:

(I don't like the skill Ursan Blessing.)

Wrong, I see UB as harmfull to gameplay. Something that was not supposed to be viable in GW: manifestation of "Rewarding the grind". Reason for buying this game and not generic mmo in first place. Not only does it rewards grind, it makes challeging content not challeging at all, removing point of it being in game.

(I believe that everyone uses Ursan Blessing.)

Wrong. I does not matter if 1 person uses it, 10 , 100 or 1000. It will always be wrong. Regardless of that, people DO use UB for certain things exclusivelly ("only way to do something"), hugely limiting PUG options to the point when not-using it means being cut of content/HoM statues/etc...

So i am NOT basically saying "i dont like it, everyone is is using it.". Stop putting word in my mouth, thank you very much

---

Another WTF is that people are supposed to make logical statements when it is inherently impossible as we are discussing enjoyment of game. Feelings. OFC, if you dont share someone wiews it is easy to force him to make logical statements that can be shattered by illogical retorts regardless of their valitidy (any man which argued with woman can tell you that): your "implied bracketed arugments" are fine example of it. "ou are forcing your morals down to other people's throats as you believe it is the only correct way" How logical is that?

You are quite hung out on "you are not anet, mkkay, you just share your views". Well, isnt that obvious? Message for anet is "9 months ago you broke game, 6 months ago you broke it even more. Fix it." See, not a mention of "The only proper way to play game".

What i am foccing down your throat is gameplay that was *ALWAYS* in GW. Probalby stuff you enjoyed and which got you hooked when you first got game otherwise you would not be here posting on guru. Was it that bad that you have to flame people who want game restored to that state?

1) When people were unhappy with inability to have huge character development/or with having to be good player to get certain content, they could leave GW for myriads of other MMOs.
2) When you look for skillbased PvE MMO with no character power progression, you are out of luck.

If PvE is reverted to skill based gameplay, players who liked mindless destruction have tons of option. If it stays like it is, there is NO option, because no other game exists with mindset of early prophecies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

...

Are you claiming that anet is supposed to be liable to their own rules that they made for players? They are not, and they do wield power that would scream of ban if used by ordianry (Gailes "teleport anywhere" ability for example, if players could do it, it was fixed asap.)

And besides that, Yes, i claim that anet viollated their rules by making ursan: Basic design rules for ballancing skills, Prophecies-age rules of not rewarging grind with power, Factions & NF age rules on how hard elite mission should be for average population.

What you see is anet disagreeing with itself. With what they based game upon at the very begining.

Pandora's box · Feb 03, 2008, 11:41 AM // 11:41

The opp is making a problem of something which is no problem at all. He is talking about his "well balanced solo pve builds" and being forced to use overpowerd pve-only skills now. How so? Your solo builds still work don't they? And since its solo no one will ask you to use bear skills or consumables; its your own decission! So continue to have fun by balancing your good solo builds and let others have fun in using pve-only stuff.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 03, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

I don't care if the OPs post is dumb, I'll /sign anything and anyone who wants to nerf or remove the PvE skills: they're insulting, dull to play, and contrary to the stated goal of "skill over time".

/SIGNED!

Pleikki · Feb 03, 2008, 11:53 AM // 11:53

/signed I dont like the skills i dont use them and i never will. i totally sign this Only For Eotn/dungeons

Numa Pompilius · Feb 03, 2008, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Possibly one of the best signs how bad the PvE skills are, is that it's the PvP people who love them, because they allow them to farm without effort.

Sirius-NZ · Feb 03, 2008, 01:02 PM // 13:02

I don't think PvE skills are necessarily unfair; personally I'm glad Eternal Aura, for instance, is available in PvE - and grinding makes no difference to its utility.

Avarre · Feb 03, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

I think my account and the accounts of all my friends should have infinite platinum and material reserves, as well as ten stacks of armbraces.

We should also be able to dupe freely and teleport to any outpost regardless of having visited it before, and any boss regardless of preresiquite quests.

It doesn't affect you so you have no reason to say no to my idea.

RhanoctJocosa · Feb 03, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10

I personally think certain skills should be renamed, like "You move like a Drawf!" Good solution to the problem, srsly.

Abedeus · Feb 03, 2008, 01:14 PM // 13:14

/signed

On my alliance chat, I ALWAYS see ,,DoA Group Forming 6x Ursan + 2x Monk!'' or other variations, like 5x ursan + 3x monk.

I think Ursan was meant to give people a choise over the warrior-monk-elementalist trio, but it just made everything worse. Before people had to play as warrior, monk, elementalist, necro or make something that will replace them (like instead of N/R battery, I used my R/N battery, or instead of N/Mo I used Rt/N Minion Master). Now we have ONLY (!!!!) URSANWAY!!

What's even worse? People want me to use ursan as a PARAGON. It's a crime against nature, worse than running Mo/E nuker! If I can enable a god-mode for at least 2/3 of the time, why they want another stupid ursan? It's just sick and disgusts me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonde Warrior

This thread is full of fail, if you don't like pve skills don't use them!
/NOT signed

Cool, but not using them will reject us from 95% of pve groups. Why not just make one game for normal players, and one for ursaners?

GrimEye · Feb 03, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Organization has to do with tactics, build structure, and communication. The classes you brought were less relevant.
.......

Not sure why you wrote this, none of it is relevant to the topic.

I agree.

But I have to raise the issue of PVP because "organization" is big part of this side of the game. PVP has ta bigger portion of organized group than unorganized ones. Yet with all these organization, build structure, communication - PVP is now in state where many people view as in "disarray", even some ardent PVP'ers hold this view.

But I have to disagree that "classes" are irrelevent in the issue of build strucure. Why does people prefer N/Rt rather than Rt/N in some meta team build? Why Mo/Me than Rt/Mo or Me/Mo or E/mo for healers? Why W/A than A/W for tank? Build structure and team synergy largely rely on primary profession, and common sense dictates that.

Quote:

I PUG'ed a good part of my FoW armor in 2005 and I play Mesmer. If you made your own groups, you could easily grab some other roles and walk through more of the areas of the game without trouble. I usually just grabbed 4-5 others for FoW.

I pugged through several areas of DoA on said Mesmer as well (for the others I just used people I knew).

Back in 2005, we were all new, feeling our way to the game. Everyone just accept everyone. Then more builds came up, and these builds dictates the meta-synergy team on certain area simply because it was the most efficient.

You asked if it would be sad if no other class was added. And I agree, if no classes was added, it would be sad. Yet, on many elite "profitable" mission area, like DoA, it seems it only has a place for original 6 core professions (atrually, 5 since mesmer is another discriminated class in PVE). People still build team synergy as if the other newer profession doesn't exist.

I can play the popular professions to avoid being discriminated, and I can. In fact, I have all 10. It just happens that my favorite professions happens to be "unpopular". Sad is if these professions were not created. But far more saddening is, after being created by ANET, they seem to have no place.

PVE-skills are class-less skill. Any profession can use it or not use it. It is a solution to give the discriminated class a fighting chance in game dominated by narrow-minded meta-team build, organized or unorganized, that has taken deep roots in almost 3 years.

It is not the most efficient solution, I agree. But it is an equalizer of some sort. We seem to be arguing over a tree, forgetting the forest. PVE-skills is not the problem, it is a symptom, brought about by limitation of the underlying structure of the game itself and a culture of player's mind-set and bias built over the years, which cannot be solved by stop-gap quackery of whines.

Maybe ANET feel the same way too. So ANET came up with the ultimate solution: GW2.

So, Im presuming, ANET is now between a rock (GW1) and a hard place (GW2), with few months in between. Even if the PVE-skills are resolved in GW1, will the effect carry over to GW2?

Would having an update patch on Warcraft I and Warcraft II, solve the issue of Warcraft III? Would such action would even be relevant? Would anyone care if blizzard made a a grand and sweeping update on Starcraft with Starcraft II on the horizon?

I may seem rambling. But Im just fascinated by the fervent "moral/intellectual" attachment - calling people dumb and stupid - for using a skill in a game, which will fade into oblivion few months from now.

My take.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 03, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23

I'd be real interested in hearing ArenaNets take on Ursan and the other PvE skills.

Is Guildwars still about "skill over time"?
If it is, how do ArenaNet justify the PvE skills in general, and Ursan Blessing in particular? I mean, they're the exact opposite of "skill over time".

So - has ArenaNet abandoned "skill over time" as guiding principle, or are the PvE skills merely unfortunate mistakes?

.

Avarre · Feb 03, 2008, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

But I have to disagree that "classes" are irrelevent in the issue of build strucure. Why does people prefer N/Rt rather than Rt/N in some meta team build? Why Mo/Me than Rt/Mo or Me/Mo or E/mo for healers? Why W/A than A/W for tank? Build structure and team synergy largely rely on primary profession, and common sense dictates that.

Sure, but you're assuming that each build uses the same structure of primary classes. A build needs a certain amount of damage, healing, prot, and defense - there are a lot of ways to get that, and certain parts, especially the midline, are extremely variable.

Quote:

Back in 2005, we were all new, feeling our way to the game. Everyone just accept everyone. Then more builds came up, and these builds dictates the meta-synergy team on certain area simply because it was the most efficient.

My PuGing method hasn't really changed. I ask for the role I want - if their bar is decent enough, I take them. If I want full efficiency on a mission, I'll bring people I know.

Quote:

You asked if it would be sad if no other class was added. And I agree, if no classes was added, it would be sad. Yet, on many elite "profitable" mission area, like DoA, it seems it only has a place for original 6 core professions (atrually, 5 since mesmer is another discriminated class in PVE). People still build team synergy as if the other newer profession doesn't exist.

Well, largely that's because of roles. Factions classes add no real depth to the game and thus won't see play in place of Core classes. NF classes were slightly better, and you'll see quite a few Paragons, for instance.

Quote:

I can play the popular professions to avoid being discriminated, and I can. In fact, I have all 10. It just happens that my favorite professions happens to be "unpopular". Sad is if these professions were not created. But far more saddening is, after being created by ANET, they seem to have no place.

Again, this can be attributed to ANet not seeming to have a clear design plan with some of the classes, and not developing PvE parallel to the developments to the classes and skills etc.

Quote:

PVE-skills are class-less skill. Any profession can use it or not use it. It is a solution to give the discriminated class a fighting chance in game dominated by narrow-minded meta-team build, organized or unorganized, that has taken deep roots in almost 3 years.

The best PvE skills are, interestingly enough, most effective on the most effective PvE classes (Warriors, Paragons, etc). If PvE skills were meant to give other classes a 'fighting chance', then why are their skills not comparable to TNTF and Save Yourselves?

Quote:

It is not the most efficient solution, I agree. But it is an equalizer of some sort. We seem to be arguing over a tree, forgetting the forest. PVE-skills is not the problem, it is a symptom, brought about by limitation of the underlying structure of the game itself and a culture of player's mind-set and bias built over the years, which cannot be solved by stop-gap quackery of whines.

PvE skills are a bandaid fix to much larger problems with PvE development as a whole. But we know that's not going to get fixed, because...

Quote:

Maybe ANET feel the same way too. So ANET came up with the ultimate solution: GW2.

ANet decided it would be better to scrap what was becoming overly complicated and rebuild from the start, hopefully learning from their mistakes on their accidental success.

Quote:

I may seem rambling. But Im just fascinated by the fervent "moral/intellectual" attachment - calling people dumb and stupid - for using a skill in a game, which will fade into oblivion few months from now.

People aren't dumb for using the skill. It's a good skill for the players. They're dumb if they think it's good for the game overall.

Destro Maniak · Feb 03, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafia cyborg

I am a causal PvE gamer.
one of the things i enjoyed most in guildwars was making my own builds.(especially "solo" builds)
it was great to have 100+ skills all balanced between them (balanced through PVP which is the only way of balancing skills against each other!) from which to choose and make up builds

since the introduction of these overpowerered pve skills (to accomodate whiners).....the choice of skills is now very limited and builds have become duller....cos at least 3 are gonna be PVE skills.

(that means choosing 3 out of only just 10 of your title track skills)

i see myself now forced to go and max out these retarded titles ( i never been interested in titles)just to be as strong and imbalanced as anyone else.

all the 100s of pvp skills in the gw game are now almost worthless as they can't compare to how strong these pve are. it's a shame.

possible solution:
- limit these pve skills just to eotn dungeons.
that way ppl also won't complain much about grinding titles as these titles will only matter in those dungeons (which are for harrdcore gamers and nolifers anyway) .
- or please limit these PvE skill to 1 per build. (like an extra elite)

Lol nothing changed for you. Just dont max them. If you say that it was fun without them why would people using them bother you. Just dont use them.

Destro Maniak · Feb 03, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I'd be real interested in hearing ArenaNets take on Ursan and the other PvE skills.

Is Guildwars still about "skill over time"?
If it is, how do ArenaNet justify the PvE skills in general, and Ursan Blessing in particular? I mean, they're the exact opposite of "skill over time".

So - has ArenaNet abandoned "skill over time" as guiding principle, or are the PvE skills merely unfortunate mistakes?

.

God bless ursan cause it made DoA, slavers, master dungeons be a part of a game rather then a scientific experiment of cookie making. Lol how many of you had fun with doa. Only people with hard-core pve guilds that had many people interested in elite areas. But now you can find parties more easy. Well why would you bothered from people who use ursan anyway. Because it made the game easier? Then dont use that skill?

GrimEye · Feb 03, 2008, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Again, this can be attributed to ANet not seeming to have a clear design plan with some of the classes, and not developing PvE parallel to the developments to the classes and skills etc.
.....................................

PvE skills are a bandaid fix to much larger problems with PvE development as a whole. But we know that's not going to get fixed, because...
....................................

ANet decided it would be better to scrap what was becoming overly complicated and rebuild from the start, hopefully learning from their mistakes on their accidental success.

Exactly what I mean, the problem is the underlying structure of the game, And this structure and development of the game created a mind-set of bias, which players carry in their mind without knowing its in their head. So we cannot blame specific player or group from the problem of discrimination.

We seem to agree on deeper problem of guildwars, not just the symptoms.

But we seem to separate on the idea that the "problem" can be solve. Your post seem to imply, correct me if Im wrong, that these underlying problems can be solved in due time and would be relevant.

My contention is:

1. the PVE-skill changes would be superficial, would not solve the underlying structure and developmental mistakes of the past, nor change the culture of bias against some professions,

2. time is working against ANET,

3. and the changes, whatever they are, would always be cosmetics and would be irrelevant when GW2 comes.

By creating GW2, ANET just acknowledge their mistakes that had accumulated over the years. GW2 is an acknowledgement that GW1 is hopeless and beyond acceptable cure, on deeper level.

If ANET gives considerable resources, time, and attention for all the problem that besets GW1, it is less resources, less time, and less attention to GW2 development. From such unconcentrated, unfocus action, GW2 might be affected. After all, ANET is really not earning anything at the moment with their kind of business model.

If ANET will simply give cosmetic changes, then such changes would be meaningless, and might compound the problem even more, as past actions by ANET indicated.

Give ANET some leeway as they worked on GW2. I'll take any changes ANET can spare on GW1, even taking out the PVE-skills. But, I sure hope to hell, ANET had learned their lessons and make GW2 much better, as all of us wants it to be.

My take.

Avarre · Feb 03, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

not like you are forced to use them are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I think my account and the accounts of all my friends should have infinite platinum and material reserves, as well as ten stacks of armbraces.

We should also be able to dupe freely and teleport to any outpost regardless of having visited it before, and any boss regardless of preresiquite quests.

It doesn't affect you so you have no reason to say no to my idea.

So we're agreed then?

Ctb · Feb 03, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

It doesn't affect you so you have no reason to say no to my idea.

Exactly. Exploiting bugs in the game design and playing the game as designed are exactly the same thing so.....

Oh... wait... never mind. I stumbled into a wall of common sense.

Quote:

I noticed that people that aren't against ursan are either failing at PvE and using Ursan for everything

Maybe you should try changing your guild before you argue that the entire game should be changed.

Numa Pompilius · Feb 03, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimEye

Exactly what I mean, the problem is the underlying structure of the game, And this structure and development of the game created a mind-set of bias, which players carry in their mind without knowing its in their head.

Well, sortof. Cookie-cutter builds are due to the opposition being 100% predictable: you know when and where they'll be, and you know what skills they'll use. Hence, you can use that knowledge to create a single optimal build for that area. That isn't something that is a "mind-set" of the players, it's simply so: there does exist a single most optimal build for the area.

If mob placement, type of mob, and mob capability were pseudo-random, however, there could not be a single optimal build for any given area, and players would need to create all-round builds capable of dealing with a wide range of situations.

Which is why people have wanted pseudo-random mobs from the day GW was released, and why leetists and farmers are dead-set against pseudo-random mobs: it'd kill the cookie-cutters.

The single exception is Ursan: as it has no weakness and synergizes with itself it would still be optimal in all areas.
And that is yet another reason Ursan is broken and needs to be fixed/removed.

Karia Mirniman · Feb 03, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Sure we ain't. We can all delete one character to make a monk, or go with h/h to DoA. Sorry, I mean just hero. And don't start the talk about guild, because most of my friends in guild use only ursanway, because ,,it's the only way someone unskilled is going to win''. Too bad that he won't gain any skill.

I noticed that people that aren't against ursan are either failing at PvE and using Ursan for everything, or play PvP and don't give a horse crap about PvE.

I don't know anyone that bothers to use it now!