Curse

Nevin · Mar 02, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

I think a lot of the "stick with the original set up" people are forgetting what it was like to be a noob. I doubt ANYONE posting here so far was even able to delve into another attribute of their first character until they were level 15-20 with a good size amount of gold to use effective skills, in an effective manner. Its easy with its your third or fourth character, just transfer over 20k and load him up with tomes and in 1 day, the 1-2 weeks it took your first character to finally change his build, has happened for your third or fourth. GW gives you a lot of freedom from the start, but you still have to wait, theres still that time barrier, but the thing with GW, is the time barrier is gold. I'd rather have the time barrier be experience, that is all- my idea was simply an expansion on what system they could implement that used a time barrier. Why would they want a time barrier to begin with? Well for one, its the direction all of us know Anet is going into? (Need we discuss GW:EN, and titles? No.) and theres gunna be an increased level cap.

I'd rather have them do something new. Because at this rate, I couldn't imagine playing a warrior in GW1 and leveling him up to 60 with no motives

br0thergr1m · Mar 02, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I say keep it the same. Same 10 professions....wipe out all skills and all attributes, and start completely fresh. Start the balancing all over again but with the professions we know and love. But a complete re work of skill balances, deletions, etc. Add in Racial changes for maybe a bonus in Racial cities, racial armor....racial missions, but that be the extent. Spend most of the time working on skill balances.

legendary4321 · Mar 02, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

i say go by the race,not by profession,make different good and bad atts for each race and u can chose what to become from their

Crimso · Mar 02, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

I'd like a system sort of similar to guildwars with cprof/secondary prof but, there will be differences between races but only skill wise and those skills would just be general skills not skills that would make a certain race better then another race at a class.

for example the norn bear transformation skill.
bear form 10e,5c,30r: for 60 seconds you transform into a bear you gain 150 health and 10 energy you attack and cast spells 10% faster and your attack skills and spells do 5% more damage. This skill is disabled for 200 seconds.

in this example the bear form for the norn class for a minute your character gets an all-round boost but it won't make the norn class a prefered race for a proffession because theres a long period where you can't be bear form and your at risk of interuption while using it

whereas other races could see skills like

Charr

gloat: 5e,1/4c,8r:if target foe is below 50% health you gain 80 health and 10 energy

Like signet of lost souls but a charr only skill(I know the charr have this skill in GW)

since GW2 supports more solo play a decent heal and energy recover and a would be good for any class and is balanced compared to the norn skill.

Asura

mind over matter 15e,1/4c,30r:for 15 seconds your health is increased by 200 and you are immune to health degeneration when this skill ends you lose half of your current energy and adrenaline

This skill is an example how a any race any class system could work a skill that can be used for both casters for the health increase and physical classses being immune to health degen.

Balan Makki · Mar 02, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Will be interesting to see what Arena Net does have in mind for GW2. I'm guessing that it will be attribute-like points gained per level, that can be spent in any of the many primary/secondary professions, being that a single character can play and switch between all professions: for primary and secondary. Thus attribute points being the only stat gained when leveled, depending on how you spec you attribute points will, to some degree, reflect how your base stats are bolstered. Each profession will be capped at around 200 or so attribute points. . . . players can then start building points for other proffessions, leveling their abilities in new/alternate proffessions.

A system such as this could have infinite levels, as new professions are continually introduced, but would have absolutely no Stat Creep, or silly MMO stat building routines that so many players of GW seem to despise. Infinite levels with no Stat Grinds to segregate players or unbalance the game system, nor would leveling negate early content, all content would be replayable being that your stats don't creep beyond a mean average.

Seems kinda obvious where GW2 is headed.

Eldin · Mar 02, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

I don't know why everyone is for these evolutions and racial attributes. I thought we want GW2 to be as loyal to GW1 as possible and non-WoWish?

I just want the six core professions. Every profession after broke the game.

Tick Tock Venah · Mar 02, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

I liked the system in FFXI. You could change both Primary and Secondary professions at will, but the power of your secondary was limited to half the power of your primary. If you had leveled up to Lvl 30 in your Warrior job (you only gain exp for a job while it's your primary) and level 20 in your Assasin job, you could be a 30W/15A or a 20A/10W. Or you could start over (with the same character) as a 1Mo/1E, and level those up from there (using GW professions as examples). Secondary professions gave the use of more skills and passive bonuses, for example taking Black Mage (read: Ele) would give you a larger pool of energy, but sill not as large as a primary Mage, since the bonus is only from a lower level profession. The only thing I didn't like in FFXI was stat/attribute grind. You had to actually cast spells to make your attribute rise. Ugh.

Craywulf · Mar 02, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

This is an interesting idea, but it'd have to be tightly controlled so as to avoid possible exploits or overpowered combinations. For instance, it might be too powerful to be able to have something like soul reaping, fast casting, and energy storage on the same character. Also, in a classless system, how would you address armor ratings? Would you have another set of stats to address what armor you can wear? Would you get rid of armor restrictions all together, and just allow anyone to use any armor?

First I wouldn't allow more than one primary attribute per character. As you saw my sample idea I had Energy Storage listed separate because it's a Elementalist primary. I had 7 attributes and 1 primary attribute.

I think armor requisites be very similar to the way weapon requisites are, in that only a warrior class (which has Strength and Tactics) can carry a shield. You would need Strength or Tactics to wear warrior gear depending on which armor.

Elemental armor can have requisite to just like its weapons. For example the fire-based robes (Flameforged) would require you to have say 8 in Fire Magic attribute.

Armor rating should based on how much you put in the attribute. So if you want max armor you're gonna need to put more into it than the initial requirement. So if Flameforged armor has a rating of 15 at minimum of 8 requisites of Fire Magic. Each extra point raises it to the next rating. So you would need need 13 in Fire Magic to get Max Armor (60) rating for Flameforged Armor.

themesmeroftime · Mar 02, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Are you hinting at a Skill Tree system? That could really benefit GW if they keep the 8-bar/lots of skills system. Kind of like Oblivion...

Craywulf · Mar 02, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by themesmeroftime

Are you hinting at a Skill Tree system? That could really benefit GW if they keep the 8-bar/lots of skills system. Kind of like Oblivion...

I'm not sure I understand the term "Skill Tree". Could you explain it to me? I have never played Oblivion and don't know too much about it.

themesmeroftime · Mar 02, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craywulf

I'm not sure I understand the term "Skill Tree". Could you explain it to me? I have never played Oblivion and don't know too much about it.

In simplest terms, as you progress (gain levels, do quests, missions, etc) you unlock more skills and abilities, or the skills you have become stronger and boosted. This would go hand in hand with the 100+ levels implementation and would give an incentive to level up. To prevent grinding for levels, make it so you have to have a quest system or something...

Hellgate London Example
http://http://www.mobygames.com/imag...07/574357.jpeg

If someone can better explain it, feel free

Craywulf · Mar 02, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Well I think what I'm suggesting allows for more customization in character development. It also would be easier to alter your path of development should you want to change primary professions. You aren't stuck trying to play through the game with a limited skill bar. So yeah I can see it helping to avoid grinding if the skills are not properly balanced.

The risk of this is that too many characters will have formulaic build in the beginning of development. So there will be grinding, it just won't be from a restricted skill bar. The way to fix that would be to allow access to all skills from the beginning but each skill/spell having a requisite based on the amount of potential damage.

So if your a low-level character and put all your attribute points in Mysticism just to use Avatar of Dwayna (which would have high requisite because its a powerful skill), you leave nothing for the other 7 skills let alone armor and weapons requisite.

Eldin · Mar 02, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

[skill]Power Shot[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill]

Almost every Prophecies ranger used that for some time...ugh...

Anyway, skill trees would be restricting in that you have limited skill selection and limited effectiveness. A fair amount of skills work fine even at low attributes, or at least have alternatives that work well. What happened to our "skill over time" theory? Oh yeah, ANet dropped that when they came up with the idea of Factions.

Alex the Great · Mar 02, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

i want it to stay like it is now in the fact that the only permenant desicion is in primary class.

somedays i wanna heal on my rit! somedays i wanna use channelling
somedays i play axes, somedays i play swords
somedays i farm with earth, otherdays i use fire!
i always play the same sin build however......

lyra_song · Mar 02, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I think an interesting idea would be to take the existing GW profession system.

Start with the very basic and vague classes:

Warrior
Monk

Add the secondaries

Warrior / Monk

Now......

Add a system that synergizes the classes and changes their behavior and abilities based on the secondary mix and change attribute behaviors based on what is specced the highest, and what is the primary class.

For example:

Warrior / Monk - Strength, Sword, Healing

This mix CHANGES the way the secondary attributes behave. Healing is now affected by strength.

Warrior / Monk - Tactics, Axe, Protection

This mix has tactics linked to protection, so your shouts and stances are now magically affected by protection prayers.

Monk / Warrior - Sword, Smite, Strength

This monk gains attribute in strength through smiting, gaining holy damage.

This way, you dont only create a character based on just the two classes, but attribute levels radical change how it plays.

just an idea i had.

CyberNigma · Mar 02, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihinel

Cloning is just a bad excuse for the miss of refundpoints.
Classtiering is nothing but stupid grind.

And why the hell create new professions that can only be used till you are half way to max lvl?
Instead of:
> Novice -> lvl20 -> Soldier -> lvl60 -> Knight/Warrior/Berseker
Just let them choose
> Knight
> Warrior
> Berseker
right from the start.

And if you don't use special 3D models for each class, than just implent primary class change...

I think you miss the point of cloning. As evident from the forums throughout the life of GW, people have complained about people not knowing how to play a class because they ran through the game to get to max level - primarily because they didn't want to level another character up yet wanted to play that class for some reason.

The TR cloning system mitigates that somewhat because through each tier, a person learns to play the common parts of various classes. They know that people are going to want to play several, if not every, class without having to start from scratch (which the GW and your response would suggest they have to do if they want to play other classes). Therefore, the only leveling aspect that has to be re-done is the part that is unique for that class.

For example, there is only one class at levels 1-5. That allows new players to learn the core of the game, playing what is essentially common to every class in the game. At level 5, the first major breakpoint occurs. You pick a melee/combat class or a support/caster class. If you pick a melee class (soldier) then you play through levels 5-15 learning that type of class and what is common to all the melee/combat classes. At that point, you can choose a ranger or a commando toc ontinue learning their specifics playstyles. If, for example you level up a commando and decide you want a ranger (eventually spy or assassin) then instead of having to play through levels 1-15 again (which is common to both command and ranger), you only have to start at level 15 to learn the ranger-specific stuff. It is a very smart system, and helps to alleviate the problem of re-grinding the early aspects of a class just to get to the stuff that's unique to that class.

There is no need to run a character to an advanced level in a class to get past stuff you don't want to learn again because you start at the divergence point. To want anything else is to be stuck in the old school mentality that most MMOs have followed that you have to earn your place by paying the grind price just like everyone else instead of just getting into the fun part and paying. Guild Wars isn't necessarily built like that in its current incarnation. It can be done in GW2, though. It is an ingenious way of setting up a leveling system, and I hope future games implement it as well instead of sticking to the same old stuff.

Level 1-5 Common
Level 5-15 - Soldier or Specialist
Level 15-30 Commandor or Ranger (Soldier) - Sapper or Biotechnician (Specialist)
Level 30+ Grenadier or Guardian (Soldier) - Spy or Assassin (Ranger) - Demolitionist or Engineer (Sapper) - Medic or Exobiologist (Biotechnician)

Fantasy class can easily be adapted to a schema as such without altering them much at all. Eventually a play can end up with a character of each class with a minimal or re-tread, though those that wish to could always start from scratch (with every character) if they wish. This gives some people more options without taking away any options from others.

If a player plays through with a warrior then decides to play a ranger but doesn't want to go through the leveling again (in GW's current state), he power levels (whether you agree its a good idea or not is irrelevant - that's what usually happens). Since they are different archetypes the person may not have any idea on how to play the ranger. However, if the classes were tiered, and assuming he was alright with the lesser amount of leveling required in a tiered system, he would be able to start playing the ranger at a point that it diverges from the core combat class (which the warrior would have evolved from as well). The same goes for the caster classes, which diverge at a lower point than the warrior/ranger. There's no need in learning the basics of the game, but rather just learn how a caster works, then branch into what type of caster you want to play.

Again, assuming you aren't really playing your character class until you are level 20 anyways (current GW) and everything prior is a tutorial, it doesn't hurt that you aren't 'called' an elementalist until level 20 anyways. It's just a name, but the abilities will come just as they did before as you progress. If you don't want to clone and want to 'earn your way by grinding' up again, you can do so, but it allows those that don't want to re-learn the basics to jump right in and learn how an elementalist is played, not how a character is played -0 which was already learned).

As much as people complain about having to party up with people that got their second or third characters run because they didn't want to do the basics again, yet didn't take the time to learn the new class, I would think the cloning aspect would be pretty popular.

Here's a link to describe the process, which is only being provided for the benefit of learning a game concept, not promoting another game (whcih is owned by NCSoft as well anyhow).

http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Cloning
http://tabularasa.wikia.com/wiki/Class

I think the cloning system (or something similar) is the future of level-based CRPGs. The alternative is to take out leveling completely, though cloning would still work as long as there is some kind of progression. People like playing games over and over, but after the first time, many people like playing the later aspects of the game - such as playing through the story of Halo 3 once and then playing in multiplayer over and over, or the campaigns on an RTS and then starting at later tech levels in multiplayer. It gives choice, without taking it away. You aren't losing a class because you really aren't that unique until later anyhow, just as in DnD the classes really don't shine until at least midlevels.

Sleeper Service · Mar 03, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

ah cool its in sardelac.

i myself have always found the FF-Tactics character class system to be the most enjoyable.

To adapt it to GW on could set the requirement to a certain number of skills unlocked in a certain attribute line in order to advance.That is if they even keep that....

Players could choose any up to 3 attribute lines for their toon, and having a certain number of skills unlocked in the respective lines would modify the access they had to certain classes (and thus primary attribute)

Ie: primary attribute "perks" (Soul Reaping etc) would be linked to the class, the class would be defined by the attribute lines chosen.

So you couldn't be a "Soldier" class (the result of having sword + strength selected as your attribute lines on the toon) passively gaining energy when stuff dies nearby as a "perk" (soul reaping) for example.

However, your "Soldier" class would have inherent armour penetration % ,resistance to certain conditions, a health boost, some malus to hexes or such (theres always got to be a downside) and all this would vary according to the number of skills unlocked.

Once you opened up a sufficient amount of skills in the "soldier" class (sword + strength) and say the "priest" class (heal + prot) you would gain access to the "paladin" class (sword + heal + strength).

(*reading previous post) so yeah cloning is like the FFT system. Its a great way to evolve a toon i found.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 03, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Don't change it. The current profession system is perfectly fine as is. I've never come across a large number of players outwardly claiming that the double profession build [armor primary] has had any problems.

But, KEEP ALL THE CLASSES. From Warrior to Paragon from all the previous campaigns. No need to reap excess / rip off profit by redoing the entire Guild Wars One series campaigns and then including 'bonus old' classes in each one...

MithranArkanere · Mar 03, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

ah cool its in sardelac.

i myself have always found the FF-Tactics character class system to be the most enjoyable.

To adapt it to GW on could set the requirement to a certain number of skills unlocked in a certain attribute line in order to advance.That is if they even keep that....

Players could choose any up to 3 attribute lines for their toon, and having a certain number of skills unlocked in the respective lines would modify the access they had to certain classes (and thus primary attribute)

Ie: primary attribute "perks" (Soul Reaping etc) would be linked to the class, the class would be defined by the attribute lines chosen.

So you couldn't be a "Soldier" class (the result of having sword + strength selected as your attribute lines on the toon) passively gaining energy when stuff dies nearby as a "perk" (soul reaping) for example.

However, your "Soldier" class would have inherent armour penetration % ,resistance to certain conditions, a health boost, some malus to hexes or such (theres always got to be a downside) and all this would vary according to the number of skills unlocked.

Once you opened up a sufficient amount of skills in the "soldier" class (sword + strength) and say the "priest" class (heal + prot) you would gain access to the "paladin" class (sword + heal + strength).

(*reading previous post) so yeah cloning is like the FFT system. Its a great way to evolve a toon i found.

YESH!

That's it! ONE character -> ALL professions.

Combined with the secondary profession system, it would allow unlimited learning.

No more 'you cannot enter because we need a monk here'. Change to monk and done.

That way, people could have EVERYTHING just by making one character of each race.

Navaros · Mar 03, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

There shouldn't be any professions system in GW2. Each player should be able to play his character as any profession he wants to, and switch it any time he wants to while he's in any town. Like how it would be if you could change your Primary profession in GW1.