Curse

Darkobra · Apr 15, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

I'm yet to hear a valid response.

My words exactly. Snow's disproved you and all you can do is brush it off and ignore it.

Alex the Great · Apr 15, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by payne

play monk and your always wanted ^^

and you don't even need a consume set!

Ben-A-BoO · Apr 15, 2008, 10:39 AM // 10:39

/notsigned

I am not a big fan of ursan - it is not superior to any good skill bar that is synced with the team. What breaks Ursan and any other skill are consumables. Oh and don't call for balancing skills in pve if pve itself is not balanced (I mean Mallyx without glitching? Have you tried that? tell me where is the balance there).

BUT

This is PvE, let the people play the way they like. The only static link between them is the economy. That was not 'ruined' (I'd say balanced) by Ursan or consumables. It was by implementing inscription (rendering greens totally useless), loot scaling and maybe by adding the zaishen chest.

Cheers,
Timebandit

KennyC · Apr 15, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

@DivineEnvoy

So Hard Mode with Ursan and consumables doesnt turn any elite area into a "how fast can we do this" affair? As I said before, Elite Areas are supposed to be hard to complete, not super easy.

It needs to be fixed, if you honestly cant see that then we are playing different games.

zwei2stein · Apr 15, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Yes, Sharei, i see what you are trying to to, to prevent further damage. Commendable, and i agree on that, but i still maintain it is too late even for that.

Huge problem is that "window" of opportunity has been missed. Every day that ursan/consumables exist more and more players learn about it and start to abuse it.

That leads to huge problem: As number of players using it grows, so does number of players hypothetically QQing about its nerf. While swift and brutal PvE stuff nerf early in Gwen would produce few small whines, even tiny nerf would nowadays produce huge amount of gargantuan threads describing in detail how anet hates PvE. What would be counterable by simple "it was imba, L2P" would turn to thread of uncontrollable (pun intended) barrage of feelings.

Shame that anet did "operation shortbus" on pretty much all of PvE ( http://www.thenoobcomic.com/headquar...mics/00299.jpg )

MithranArkanere · Apr 15, 2008, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Sharing skills balances between PvE and PvP, only two difficulty settings, AI limits that force monsters to be stronger instead of smarter, level cap in PvE that prevents further increase instrengh and keeps the players always under monster's 'raw power'...

Those are all things that will be fixed in GW2.
But in GW1, the fix was this one.

Nothing can be done for now.

Savio · Apr 15, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

What do you mean, "fix"? Oh wait, this is Sardelac, where balance is just something that keeps you from fulfilling all your GW dreams.

MithranArkanere · Apr 15, 2008, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Hey, a plaster is also a 'fix', but they do not really fix scratches. They just cover them so they do not get worse.

Elite areas were requiring certain exclusive professions, so they went over that by adding something that makes any profession enter...

Could have be done better, but it worked. Now it doesn't matter much your profession in those areas.

Snow Bunny · Apr 15, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

I came into the discussion only on the issue of removing, i.e. nerfing, them from the game, pointing out a key problem. I'm yet to hear a valid response.

Right.

I've provided a valid response.

Now argue against it. Your argument ignores mine entirely, not to mention that on a game balance scale, has no weight whatsoever.

I'm waiting for you to realize that for once Rhanoct, you might possibly be wrong.

Celestial_Kitsune · Apr 15, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Running no cons and pve skills is a greater challenge, so why not reward that also? All the suggestion was, was to extend the principles introduced in hard mode. Make the game harder, get better rewards. Nothing more, nothing less. I fail to see any lack of honor in this?

This is not exactly what your original suggestion was. Your suggestion was to give less rewards than are given currently to people who use consumables or PvE skills. Thus, make the game harder, get same rewards. It is different from don't use PvE skills and consumables and get double rewards for example. That is why people perceive your suggestion as punishing people who use consumables and PvE skills.

Lishy · Apr 15, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Wow, anyone who complains of Ursan and Consumables, saying "idiots who cant make their own build use them", are the idiots themselfs.
Nothing needs nerfing except for your complaints.
Ursan and all the other PvE skills are anything but overpowered.And the fact you need to grind to make them good?!?
COMMON! A moebius sin has more survivability and dps!

Shuuda · Apr 15, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

The thing to do:

- Is remove these pieces of crap altogether, good players never needed them, and bad players need to learn how to play (and not rely on imba shit)

- redesign all the crappy places like DoA/Deep/Urgoz etc to allow more flexable team builds. (Making all enemies do 5403257239465 damage is not a challenge, merely restricting)

Lishy · Apr 15, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

The thing to do:

- Is remove these pieces of crap altogether, good players never needed them, and bad players need to learn how to play (and not rely on imba shit)

- redesign all the crappy places like DoA/Deep/Urgoz etc to allow more flexable team builds. (Making all enemies do 5403257239465 damage is not a challenge, merely restricting)

So your telling us to run a whammo and not use skills commonly used in cookie cutters because were not "good"?
So we cannot use Searing Flames?Or Dragon Slash?What about Spiteful Spirit?Can we use Healers Boon?What, we can't even use Moebius strike?!?!

Face it.The only reason you guys are bitching so much is because people saw builds on PvXwiki and because the skill is commonly used , you hate it since you want more original builds.
Why don't YOU make original builds instead of complaining about others?

blakecraw · Apr 15, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Oh, look at that! It's.. it's.. a huge cloud of smug!

There's nothing stopping people from playing a "purer" form of pve, with no pve skills, and no consumables, so why is it a problem that people can play with them? The idea of simply not allowing those "lower class" pve players to have a statue is arrogant; rather than worry about their impact on the economy, which is potentially a viable argument (seeing as it affects other people), let's just not let them have a statue in their hall. The point I'm getting at, if it's not clear yet, is that ursan goombas having a statue in their hall has 0 impact on the "elite pve players" (I think there's a term for phrases like that...), so they have no grounds to complain about it.

Now, I do believe that the pve-only stuff has a negative effect on the economy, since it allows anybody and his brother to bulldoze their way to a crap-ton of items that should be "hard" to get. However, the skills are available to anybody, right? So I fail to see the lack of fairness.

I don't think there's any way of quantifying the advantage that pve stuff gives a team, so there's no fair way to nerf rewards based on the skills or items used. An easter egg =/= TNTF!, so a blanket drop-nerf based on pve-only stuff would not work.

It only took me a novel to get here, but I propose (get this) balancing all the pve-only stuff! Have fun with that, anet.

DivineEnvoy · Apr 15, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by KennyC

@DivineEnvoy

So Hard Mode with Ursan and consumables doesnt turn any elite area into a "how fast can we do this" affair? As I said before, Elite Areas are supposed to be hard to complete, not super easy.

It needs to be fixed, if you honestly cant see that then we are playing different games.

Where in this thread has I stated that I said Ursan and consumables don't turn any elite areas into a "how fast can we do this" affair?

I was just pointing out that by using your logics in which why Ursan should be nerfed, cookie-cutter builds should also be nerfed. Then I asked if you agree to this or not, but in return, my question was unanswered, and I am currently being accussed of not seeing Hard Mode with Ursan and consumables turn any elite areas into a "how fast can we do this" affair. Is my writing really that difficult to understand?

Shuuda · Apr 15, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

So your telling us to run a whammo and not use skills commonly used in cookie cutters because were not "good"?
So we cannot use Searing Flames?Or Dragon Slash?What about Spiteful Spirit?Can we use Healers Boon?What, we can't even use Moebius strike?!?!

When I said redesign crap place, I meant it so that non holy trinity teams can do well in the hands of good players, and that good players get the rewards, Bad players don't until they learn, nothing but fair logic.

Quote:

Face it.The only reason you guys are bitching so much is because people saw builds on PvXwiki and because the skill is commonly used , you hate it.

And face it, the reason you want these things is because you are too lazy to learn how actually play.

Don't bother relying, I doubt you'll say anything worth more than nothing.

the_jos · Apr 15, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Hey, a plaster is also a 'fix', but they do not really fix scratches. They just cover them so they do not get worse.
Elite areas were requiring certain exclusive professions, so they went over that by adding something that makes any profession enter.
Could have be done better, but it worked. Now it doesn't matter much your profession in those areas.

You are almost right on this one.

However, the plaster just shifted the problem.
In the past people had a hard time entering because they didn't have the right profession. Now a smaller number of players are having an even harder time because they don't have a certain skill or a certain grind level.

Let me explain.
Before the UB craze outposts like DoA, Deep and Urgoz's were empty.
And ToA was mainly full of players looking for a certain farming team build, most notably 55/SS, 600/Smiter and sometimes ranger trapping teams.
Teams formed slow but with enough dedication it was possible to get into a team even with a less wanted profession. The only exception might be the assassin, don't know the profession well enough about the roles they could fit in a team except perhaps as critical barrage.

The problem for non UB players now is that those outposts are so active that they are easily overlooked.
A Mesmer with CoP could replace an ele nuker in a regular team but does not fit in an Ursan team.
The critical barrage would fit in a regular team but not in an UB team.
Regular teams are forming even less than before because every profession can just join a team as Bear profession.

As I stated before I think the plaster should be on a different part of the game.
The horrible options to create a team except being in an outpost for ages waiting for others to get there. Or scheduling something on a website that only a small number of the players visits.
Even when I want to schedule something in the alliance I need to ask officers of every guild to put it in announcement or rely on the alliance website.

Even Guru which I think is a very large site only has a small faction of the total number of GW players registered. Maybe more just leech, don't know about that. But even if the number of leechers and the number of registered users would be the same we are talking about less than 10% of the actual number of Guild Wars players.

The party search window made it possible to team up somewhat easier but it would still require someone to be in an outpost.
Not that bad when the outpost is crowded, very frustrating when you want to do a mission that is deserted, like Gyala or Unwaking.
There have been times where me and some guildies waited there for over an hour only to see one or two players enter and leave.

If this is not fixed every effort to solve the UB discrimination is futile.
And when UB and consumables are completely nerfed most elite outposts will be mostly empty again. There are faster/safer ways to gain wealth than regular teams in those areas.
Slightly more chance for regular players to team but nowere near as fast as is possible now.

Lishy · Apr 15, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Don't bother relying, I doubt you'll say anything worth more than nothing.

(Just did)
WOW!
So a "They're on Fire!" Paragon with 2 SF Heroes and 1 MM Bomber hero is considered someone too lazy to learn how the game works and use so called "builds"!?!?
WOW!I didn't know that!

Maybe if your ignorant, I was speaking for others in the last post.Not myself >_>
Don't reply.This "Isn't worth your time"

Shuuda · Apr 15, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Oh, and too all those who say "dont li4e Ursan, odnt playz itz" What if one day I wanted to play DoA, but since there are only Ursan parties, it's hard of me then to not play it unless I happened to have a guild that happened to want to do DoA at the exact same time as me?

The Solution to this problem is to first redesign the game to remove the need for crappy PvE skills, then get rid of them.

Either way, I feel like a winner for being better.

Lishy · Apr 15, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Actually, I recall doing in Slaver's recently and the only PuGs with "Ursan only" were n00bs.

So instead I just started my own group consisting of an A/R Critical Interupter,An SS necro, D slash warrior, an HB monk, some prot monk, an inf "Theres nothing to fear!" P/R (Me), and a Cry of Pain/Clumsiness mesmer.

I don't see a problem with the economy.Nothing stops n00bs from doing missions and Ursan simply increases the likeliness of beating the mission if your paired with a n00b.
Don't like ursan groups?Make your own.Its that easy!

Furthermore, if theres a build you need for the team but nobody is running it, you can simply take heroes!
Heroes are only as bad as the person using them.