Curse

Slade xTekno · Jun 23, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

I would say I hope the do not implement dual weilding for several reasons:

1. It would be a pain to balance
2. Everyone and their grandma will use it because its 'cool' and they read to much drizzit do'urden

3. It would be a pain to balance

Reasons one and three you listed are the reason I am trying to work at this idea; through this forum, I wish to present ANet with a list of examples as to how DWing could be implemented in Guild Wars.

I need to get to sleep, but I'll post something about Rogue/Assassin DWing tomorrow.

Slade xTekno · Jun 23, 2005, 12:54 PM // 12:54

I'm up because I had trouble sleeping, so I might as well post this early.

I could see how a Rogue/Assassin class could work with two types of DWing - the traditional dagger/rapier [ie Artemis Entreri] or two daggers [ie the poor bloke who tries fighting Drizzt in Waterdeep]. [you wanted Drizzt fanboyism, Talesin?]
Both of the systems I am proposing can be traced back to 3], as I believe that introducing weapons that allow a faster attack speed than swords/axes will imbalance the game when it comes to skills like Mark of Pain, Illusionary Weaponry, etc. I may post another system later that ignores this personal qualm, but I'll do these first.

5] This is a suggestion for DWing for a new profession using both a primary and off-hand weapons.
Create two new weapons, both with a swingrate of of three seconds. That way, with two such weapons, the swingrate ends up 1.5 seconds, which is faster than a hammer but slower than a sword/axe.
One new weapon would be the rapier. Alternative names for items in the game could be foil, epee, saber, etc. With it's slower attack speed, I suggest it's damage be 17-29. This would provide for a good balance between sword/axe and hammer damage [since this is not the warrior class, it's damage will be less], but will allow for sizable crits. In all other respects, it should be treated like any normal melee weapon, with similar upgrades.
The other new weapon would be off-hand daggers. Alternative names for items in the game could be parrying dagger, main gauche, sword-breaker, etc. Given the same attack speed, it would do significantly less damage than the other, doing only 11-17 damage. However, this handy little item would provide an energy and shield armor bonus of up to +7 each.* To be perfectly honest, I don't know how upgrades could be made for this weapon; it could be the same as the current weapons or completely new unique to its support status.
The main attribute for these weapons could be called Swashbuckling, and would cover requirements and crits for both weapons. You would not get the full energy and shield AL bonus, along with weapon damage, if you did not meet the attribute req.

6] This is a suggestion for DWing on a new profession using two weapons of equal size.
Create a new weapon. Each would have a swingrate of 2.5 seconds. That way, with two such weapons, the swingrate ends up 1.25 seconds, which is slightly faster than a sword/axe [1.33 seconds].
To be honest, I can't imagine an assassin/rogue using two full-sized weapons, so I believe the new weapon would be a dagger. Alternative names for items in the game could be sword-breaker, kris blade, dagger [

], kukri, punching daggers [dang, I forgot what these were called], etc. They would have a bast damage of 11-19 and each also provide an energy bonus of up to +5 and a shield armor bonus of +7. Upgrades would be normal, but may include a new upgrade to up the energy provided by 1-3e. If you haven't caught on yet, you would be able to wield one in each hand.
I'm not quite sure what you could name the attribute, but it would cover both requirements and crits. You would not get the full energy bonus or shield AL bonuses, along with weapon damage, unless you meet the attribute req.

An issue that must be addressed with both suggestions is their use with current weapons. Using either with a sword/axe would create a very fast swingrate, as the latter would strike about twice in the span of one of the off-hand's attacks. Aside from graphics issues of two weapons swinging at different rates, this could be remedied by simply doubling the swing speed of the said sword/axe when one of the new off-hand weapons I suggested.

I'd also like to set out my definition of constructive criticism, as the mere concept seems to be lost on a couple recent posters.
I consider constructive criticism to be suggestions, commentary, and notice of flaws regarding my suggestions that could help me come up with a better system. This does not include "0^^g |=@/|/|30\/111" or "I'm sorry, but your suggestion sucks" unless it includes reasons as to why.
Although general suggestions and comments still fine, some specifics I would like to hear are the names for the weapons mentioned and a name for the attributes. I'd also be very glad if someone could calculate the swingrate of using a sword [1.33s] and each of the suggestions [3s for 5] and 2.5s for 6]].

I'll comment on what everyone else has posted later, as I am guilty of not yet reading the older posts [it's very old, probably the oldest active one in Sardelac].

*Historically speaking, the choice of whether to use the main or off-hand weapon for defense was a personal preference, but often times the other way around. The term "parrying dagger" is a tribute to its deceptive nature, as it was normally the longer blade used to parry and maneuver the opponent's and the dagger that delivered the fatal blow.

EDIT: For future people who don't bother to read the entire thread, I have copy/pasted this post as an update to my first.

EDIT2: The smattering of wanna-be 1337 reads "OMG FANBOY!!!"

Jman161 · Jun 23, 2005, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Sounds like an awesome idea, just one question will u allow the new character be able to double hold sheilds cause that would make an unbelievable tank if combined with a monk second proffesion

Epinephrine · Jun 23, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Ok, I don't want DW in the game on any current class.

I don't really want it in game. I REALLY don't want epée, saber, foil, rapier etc... in game. Having fenced for more than a little while and knowing the weapons' histories and limitations suggests right off that it would be a lousy weapon unless implemented in a"fantastic" sense, which I wouldn't enjoy. The only reason that the epée and fencing weapons were effective was the gun. Armour and weaponry evolve over time, but with the advent of effective guns, body armour was essentially obsolete. The reduction in armour meant that the heavier blades designed for use on heavy armour were slow and cumbersome, as a lightweight weapon could just as easily kill an unarmoured opponent. Given the heavily armoured foes in this game, a rapier/epée/foil/sabre would be useless.

I am not a fan of oriental "martial arts" in a western setting either - in expansions perhaps we'll meet a separate culture, but the fact is that martial arts develop and are influenced by who your opponents are and the terrain of your homeland. Having studied a few, I'll draw an example from the southern style kung-fu I studied - some of the stances are very odd, non maneuverable and based in very firm body positioning - as well, some of the take-downs don't seem a big deal - why the emphasis on these stances? Well, combat in this area often occured in flooded rice paddies - an area with tricky footing to start with, and a take-down/hold here is lethal due to the very real risk of drowning. Northern styles are more mobile.

What we think of as "martial art" weaponry developed in an area without metal armours and european medieval weaponry - it specialises in a compoletely different form of combat, and wouldn't make any sense within a "western" culture. If they introduce a new region, fine, but it is unrealistic to imagine that you could punch a dragon to death - I don't care how strong you are, if the hide can turn a blade or hammer blow you won't be punching and hurting it.

So, that's my view - go ahead, bring in DW in a new environment, and in a way that makes sense, but don't tack it onto an existing class/within an existing area, as none of them are appropriate. The only DW weapons appropiate to a medieval environment are off hand daggers and sword breakers really, and these were uncommon. Medieval combatants in armour used the armour itself as a weapon.

Those who cite Florentine combat may not realise that it developed (or at least, described by Francesco Altoni) in 1550, and was practiced with lightweight, fencing style weapons.

Slade xTekno · Jun 25, 2005, 03:12 PM // 15:12

I'll start with Epinephrine's post on the second page [from 04.22.05].

Epinephrine: I am pretty positive this will be introduced with a new profession instead of being stapled onto the Warrior.
The idea of block rate slipped my mind and is a great idea. It would reserve off-hand armor as purely a Warrior trait while giving the new class an AL similar to non-W classes while still being able to emulate the advantage of having an off-hand parrying weapon. The armor penalty you suggested could also help balance the inherent blocking percentage.
Sgt Allen: I like the way you contribute a suggestion akin to mine, with a concept as well as an example. This follows the two-weapon fighting standards set by D&D, where there is a penalty to the off-hand weapon [in that case, damage].
Your suggestions seemed to follow my original suggestion of a new Warrior attribute. I'll follow up on what you have.
7] Make two new off-hand weapons. Both are linked to a new attribute called Ambidexterity, and the higher end ones will require it. Both of these weapons suffer a 75% miss chance, which is decreased by 3% per point in the attribute.
One of these new weapons will require Strength as well. These weapons do about 50%-75% damage as compared to a normal one-handed weapon [these numbers are subject to balance].
The other weapon would require Tactics. These weapons would provide a block rate of 4%-20%. To balance this, points in Tactics now inherently reduce block/miss rates by x% per point.
I don't know how I would balance the adrenaline issue with this one.
bjornmmcc: For balance issues, I don't believe ANet will make different races do anything but make your character look different. If one race would give a particular profession an edge over having used another race, everyone would be using it. If races are implemented to actually change functions, it'd be cool to see DWing as one of their attributes.
Wow, flash of insight! I have an idea on implementing races now! Look for this in another post.
Oh, and thank you for your comment.
SOT: Thanks a lot! Which version were you hoping to see - dual-wielding similar sized weapons or main and off-hand weapons?
Zorax: There has got to be a synonym for "thank you" somewhere...

MasterDinadan: I have never thought of that. However, I don't believe it would satisfy those who want to see two numbers pop up.
Nevertheless, I will make a suggestion out of it. As I see it, this would be the simplest and most efficient way to implement the concept of DWing.
8] Create a new class of off-hand items linked to Strength. This item simply provides a damage bonus to the primary hand of %5-20%.
To satisfy the die-hard DWing fans, there will probably be a changed animation for those who are using this item. That, and/or they can have two number pop up when you attack - the normal damage of the primary weapon and the damage the off-hand weapon added.
This would solve the adrenaline problem by simply not generating it. Hammers will probably need a small speed-buff.
Eos: It didn't surprise me too much. Although in D&D and other tabletop games, it is casters that is a rarity. However, I find that in online games, casters are a majority.
I would also see a Rogue class, but it would have to be balanced for a PvP-skewed game. I may make a new thread later with what you have brought up [with credit to you, of course].
Madjik: Lol, bookmarked.
bjornmmcc
Dang it. Stupid pic-post limits...

Tomo: Yeah, I dropped that idea pretty fast. There's always Battle Rage...
Most of the suggestions I made could easily be adapted [or have been] for a new profession. Eos posted a great list of suggestions a few posts above you.
BahamutKaiser: I'll do a search for it.
I also believe that the Warrior is limited on options. It'd be great to have another melee class to supplement it so that it could take it's adrenaline skills even further.
akapana21 I play D&D, too. However, remember Drizzt was trained as a fighter first.
Dubby: I'll post in your post. I will pull a bjornmmcc!11

I'll do the others later. I will update my first post with the new suggestions.

Snipe Kan · Jun 25, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

DW is a great idea id enjoy having my warrior beat on monsters with two scimmys or even two daggers would be sweet

majorownage · Aug 23, 2005, 10:05 AM // 10:05

duel wielding is good man. the rangers have a beast to fight with them.so thats like having two weapons. the beast has life too.so if enemy kills beast then kills you. that's like having double the life because beast buys you time. rangers are so cheap.

Chronic Fatigue · Aug 23, 2005, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Nice to see this topic back out in the open again. I want dual weapons, no ifs ands or buts. This must be included in some form, somewhen soon; not expansion but a game update.

/rez

Noose · Dec 22, 2005, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I am a fan of dual weilding in some games, but i really dont thin A-Net would implement something like that because it would throw off the game to such an extent it would make me cry.

okay, i know people have used all of the arguments about how they think its overpowered, and all of that jazz, and the OP has brought up a very good system, but i know for a fact that if dual weilding was implemented into GW (which it wont be, EVER) people can and WILL abuse it.

Several Examples:
1. Live Vicariously + Dual Weild = what?
2. Illusionary Weaponry + Dual Weild = what?
3. Vampiric Weapon + Dual Weild = what?
4. Warriors Cunning + Dual Weild = what?
and so on and so forth

PS- yes, i know i am about 4 months late on posting, but i was linked to this in another thread and almost cried that people actuallyconsidered this

Former Ruling · Dec 22, 2005, 04:13 AM // 04:13

The only way to fix Dual Weilding in to the skillsets Guild Wars uses - is to handle them like Champs of Norath did - Dual weilding is merely COSMATIC and gives no advantage or disadvantage.

That is - You are holding 2 axes - but only swing 1 of them at a time - so its basically like you are holding 1 axe..

That could work - simply because people would have the choice of giving up the offhand/sheild for another weapon mod. So 40% enchant would still be possible - but at the lose of your second hand.

BigTru · Dec 23, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

I say we do it exactly like Final Fantasy XI.

With one point in Dual-Wield, you swing at the speed of both weapon's delay combined, -1%

Next point, would -2%

Eventually, if you had 12 points in dual wielding, you'd be attacking 12% faster than you would had you not dual-wielded. I think that's pretty balanced.

curtman · Jun 27, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Any 1 handed weapon should be able to be dual wieldable. Sword, axes, wands, etc... Just have the off hand one do 40% of the damage it should.

Some Skills should treat it as one though. Such as live vicariously. Combat skills, should do 1.4% of the single weapon version.

sigried · Jun 27, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

y aprove your comentsbut in any case they better not make it like the stuped SINS with the combo thing that sucks.

xiao1985 · Jun 27, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

in actual game, when u miss a melee attack, u don't actually gain adrenaline... so whilst DW'ing missed attackes should NOT contribute to adnrealine

Nevin · Jun 28, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Hmm I like the over all lay out and the fact you put a lot of time into this post. Very good job all around, heres what I have to say. Although your proposal seems balanced the attributes seem a little blurry... And what happens when a warrior would rather have strength instead of DW? More importantly what happens to the Strength skills? Thus I disagree with making DW a primary attribute... Heres what I think it should be.

Dual Wield Mastery - Dual Wield Mastery increases the damage you do with your off-hand weapon and your chance to inflict a Critical Hit when using an off-hand weapon. For every point into Dual Wield Mastery, your base energy pool is decreased by 1 point and your chance to dual swing is increased by 1%. Many Warrior skills, especially dual attack skills and off-hand attack skills, become more effective with higher Dual Wield Mastery.

The key point is, this attribute ONLY effects your off-hand weapon. Thus you'd need attribute points in both your primary weapon (Axe or Sword) and then into your off-hand weapon. Also you take turns swinging your weapons you don't swing them both at the same time. So 1.33 seconds pass you swing with your axe, 1.33 seconds pass you swing with your sword, 1.33 seconds pass you swing with your axe. Etc etc... Also there would be "Dual" attack skills, these would automically take atleast 50% more adreline then normal adreline skills, and usually take 10-15 energy opposed to how single weapon attacks only cost 5-10. Dual-Swinging would be when you swing with both weapons at the same time. Here are some examples..

Scissor Slash - 14 Adreline
Dual Attack. Strike 25% faster with each weapon dealing +10....45 damage.

Agressive Riposte - 6 Adreline
Skill. Must be wielding a sword in either your primary hand or off hand weapon slot. The next melee attack against you is blocked and you dual swing at your target.

Weapons (Axes or Swords) will now have a chance of requiring dual-wield mastery when dropped from monsters. These weapons would have Off-Hand infront of their name. Thus sounding like "Off-Hand Chaos Axe" or "Off-Hand Flamberge". These weapons would have the same damage as any other axe or sword, but not be able to execute the skills that are linked to Axe Mastery or Sword Mastery. They are only able to perfom skills under the Dual Wield Mastery. Opposed to "Dual" attack skills, off-hand attack skills will be more like Axe Mastery or Swordsmanship skills. Here are some example skills.

Disrupting Blow - 6 Adreline
Off-Hand Attack. Strike target foe interrupting his or her action.

Strengthed Slash - 8 Adreline
Off-Hand Attack. Strike target foe for +3....35 damage.

So now you understand how it would work if you were primarly controling both of your weapons or if you were concentrating on your off-hand weapon. So what about your primary weapon? Well if you remember it requires skills from it's proper attribute (Swordsmanship or Axe Mastery) Thus it can use all the skills from that attribute. Anyways thats all I really have to contribute for now but heres a list of nerfs that could be used. (Not part of my initial proposition)

-Dual Wielding two weapons would require you to field a skill called "Dual Wield" taking up a skill slot, like charm animal. Which would allow you to wield two weapons.
-While Dual Wielding your weapons deal 25% less damage.
-While Dual Wielding it takes 50% longer to gain adreline.
-While Dual Wielding you have a 5% chance of being interrupted while attacking.

mqstout · Jun 28, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

I don't want it. I'm happy with Strength. Dual wielding is too gimicky. Plus, that's what an assassin is.

Ilithis Mithilander · Mar 12, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

The penatlies for dual wielding should be much higher. If you take into comparison that a shield only has a max AL of 16, which provides about a 20% reduction of dmg according to guildwiki, the off-hand weapon should deal about 50% less damage and your main hand weapon would deal 70% dmg for an overall of 130% dmg.

placebo overdose · Mar 13, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

^ stop bringing up dead posts 2nd time ive seen you do it
note: 70%+50%=120%

Jaythen Tyradel · Mar 13, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

WOW! Thread Necromancy big time...
How many minions did you raise with this?

OT: (I guess I should post something OT) Dual Wield sounds nice, I wouldn't mind having it, but everything seems to work nicely now even without Dual Wield.

legion_rat · Mar 13, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

maybe its me but dont we have a dual wielding char? the assassin? as far as the cine with dual swords it was prob shiros daggers. they are monsters.

as far as dual wielding, i dont see the problem with it but damage should be less. Daggers hace crap for damage but as fast and you get double strike. I am not against the dual wielding but it needs to be modified. just because you are using two axes doesnt mean you should get bonuses from both.

~the rat~