Curse

Gregslot · Jun 25, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Good day to everyone.
I have been focusing my game at PvE recently so i most of it are going to be PvE focused.
Since we now have the option of splitting PvE and PVP we can now give some buffs to some classes/roles that we couldnt before, but we cant make some really dramatic changes, like fireball doing 200 dmg or so, well you get the idea. Here we go.

PvP and PvE:

Monk
Smiting line has allways been the ugly step-sister of monks, we never had the chance of seeing a monk beeing a smiter focusing it at.. well, smiting. The support role of Reversal Damage, Smite Hex/Coindition is good but they dont fill the bar and what fills the bar is usually something that provides healing , not damage, because monks healing skills are far superior than its damage skills. These damage skills from the smiting line are counter-offensive, so if we have a situation of a Warrior charging into you, you can have the option of making him stop attacking you with these counter-attack skills. Unfortunatelly these skills usually are too weak to stop the agressor and/or have a really strong draw-back. What i am suggesting is to lose some of this draw-back.

[skill]Symbol of Wrath[/skill] and [skill]Kirin's Wrath[/skill]
Suggestion: Reduce cast time to 1; Reduce recharge to 20.

Having a cast time of 2 seconds makes this counter-attack really really slow and inefficient mainly because a 2 sec cast is very easy to interrupt. So at the time you have it used, that is, IF you use it, the agressor would have already spiked you or it would be at half of it, so taking an aditional 2 seconds of 30 damage wont be enough to make him stop or make him hesitate. And come on, 2 seconds for 5 seconds? Seriously. I would say to reduce the cast time to 3/4 or 1/2 but since you can have 2 copies, it should at least give the chance of beeing interrupted, since most of the "urgent" skills like reversal of fortune/damage are instant.
Reducing the recharge of one skill alone wouldnt be enough, but since you can have 2 you can have the holy damage around you for a considerable time and having the option of using it many times and around the battlefield. Counter-attacking several attacks even if they target a nearby ally at the price of positioning.
Yes, the damage isnt that great. But the point of it is making the agressor stop for a time, not ceasse its attack completly.
As for the impact at PvE conserning farm and etc, the monsters scatter, so there wont be any drastic impact at PvE.
And you should really consider making the AI use this when beeing attacked by a melee, no point of making a hero/monk-enemy charging into battle to use it.

PvE only:

Assassin
What i am about to suggest is not because of farm or anything, i do play as an Assassin at PvE and PvP so what i suggest here is to make this skill fit its role during combat.
From what i have been seeing Shadow Form is a skill to save the assassin's life, but the price of using it is losing almost all health at the end. So with this you go into combat, use it when about to die and get out. The problem is: you cant be in combat when it ends and you cant get yourself into the same situation after that for a long time, so you will end up avoiding combat for some time.
Unfortunately this makes this skill much different from its PvP version. But since is a possible good skill, changes must be made to fit the assassin role.

[skill]Shadow Form[/skill]
Suggestion: Make it and Elite Form; reduce duration to 5...13...15; reduce recharge to 30 seconds; remove the end effect.

I seriouly dont belive making yourself invulnerable 24/7 is a good idea for any situation, so i couldnt think in any way of countering that without making this skill very powerful or very weak. It must be a skill to be used oftenly, but not make it usuable all the time.
An assassin with at least 8 on shadow arts can have a 10 seconds duration, more than enough to save your life in a tight situation. You will have 10 seconds to get out of the situation and have about 20 seconds to "not get into trouble again". The health lost is what really makes this skill non-pve oriented, you just cant lose that much hp in pve.

Mesmer
Mesmers have never been very wanted in pve. We have recently seen some tweaks at some key skills to make it more pve-friendly like Clumsiness. I belive that doing the same to its elite version will make mesmer more wanted at pve, but not ruin the pvp experience.

[skill]Ineptitude[/skill]
Suggestion: Make it affect adjacent foes.

Monk
Back to the smiting line. The idea is to make smiting more useful at pve. Like said when Energy Drain was buffed, energy should not be a large issue at pve. Some of these skills are bad at pve because they cant be used as often due its energy cost or are not as useful as needed.

[skill]Ray of Judgment[/skill]
Suggestion: Reduce energy cost to 10; reduce recharge to 20.

[skill]signet of mystic wrath[/skill]
Suggestion: Reduce activation time to 1 second.

[skill]smite[/skill]
Suggestion: Reduce energy cost to 5.

[skill]spear of light[/skill]
Suggestion: Make it fly three times faster than normal.

[skill]Word of Censure[/skill]
Suggestion: Reduce energy cost to 5.

[skill]Zealot's Fire[/skill]
Suggestion: Deal holy damage instead of fire damage.

Richardt · Jun 25, 2008, 02:39 PM // 14:39

I like the buffing ideas for smiting, but the Shadow Form change you're proposing seem like it will be more exploitable by farmers. Could someone more familiar with this method of farming comment on the numbers?

Tyla · Jun 25, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Kirin's / Symbol of Wrath need to be based on a target. A Monk in the melee position is a Monk in a bad position.

Targren · Jun 25, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

So buffs for two classes of choice, with yet another shadow form nerf thrown in for good measure. Yawn.

Kanyatta · Jun 25, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Probably one of the best solutions for SF I've seen. Glyph of Swiftness would no longer help recharge, since it would be a Form, so it would have a ~5 sec downtime every 15 seconds.

As for the Monk stuff, I really don't see why Spear of Light needs to fly 3 times faster, same with Zealot's Fire dealing Holy Damage. It really won't be a buff, it would just... make sense.

Smiting Prayers definitely needs a serious buff for PvE, as it has never been taken seriously in that part of the game. PvE Mesmers also need some attention.

Targren · Jun 25, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

PvE Mesmers also need some attention.

That's about the only part that I agree with.

NYC Elite · Jun 25, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

I like the buffing ideas for smiting, but the Shadow Form change you're proposing seem like it will be more exploitable by farmers. Could someone more familiar with this method of farming comment on the numbers?

How? As an elite FORM, it can no longer be utilized by [Arcane Mimicry],[Arcane Echo], or [Glyph of Swiftness]. And [Deadly Paradox] without 50% stat it had, can't keep it up infinitely. And to take it further, that could still be changed so DP doesn't affect forms just like it no longer affects stances.

With that said, I still don't see it being non-gimmicky.

Gregslot · Jun 25, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Tyla, in PvP the melee will charge into you. Take RA as an example, positioning is almost inexistant considering backline/midline/frontline. The point of it is countering an attack coming to you, anything different from that would be more like Balthazar's Aura.

Kanyatta, Spear of Light is ridiculous because it has a high chance to miss, the damage and all is good if the target is attacking. What really makes it bad is that in its flight, the target can stop attacking and etc, with this it will cut that time off. As for Zealot's Fire, its really weak in PvE because it deals about 30 damage, if you are facing a high-end mob, it will deal like 12 damage or so, turning it to holy damage will guarantee this 30 damage, wich is strong if you consider every cast and beeing able to pass through warrior's armor.

Tyla · Jun 25, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Tyla, in PvP the melee will charge into you. Take RA as an example, positioning is almost inexistant considering backline/midline/frontline. The point of it is countering an attack coming to you, anything different from that would be more like Balthazar's Aura.

It's not really going to counter melee who can play. Attacking only the Monk and not pressuring anything else through target switching if the enemy gets blocks or whatever, much like how your updates on these skills function will mean no pressure is coming from that melee. Except the Wrath skills only deal damage and don't remove pressure.

Balthazar's Aura is an enchantment, and deals damage if your ally is next to them.

Your version of Kirin's / Symbol are AoE's that take a target enemy and don't have the power to "follow them around".

zelgadissan · Jun 25, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

I was about to post about [Shadow Form] still being abused by [Eternal Aura] and then I pulled my head out of my ass

ANYWAY, I can't complain about buffing Ineptitude, but as somebody who runs an Ineptitude mesmer 90% of the time I can say with full confidence that it certainly doesn't need it. Damage is roughly 1.5x that of Clumsiness + it would essentially have an AoE blind effect. You'd have to raise recharge or energy cost or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

From what i have been seeing Shadow Form is a skill to save the assassin's life, but the price of using it is losing almost all health at the end. So with this you go into combat, use it when about to die and get out. The problem is: you cant be in combat when it ends and you cant get yourself into the same situation after that for a long time, so you will end up avoiding combat for some time.

[Death's Retreat], [Ebon Escape], [Dark Escape]. You should never need Shadow Form for the reasons you're saying with these three skills, and if you can't cast the first two then you're overextended and deserve to die a horrible and painful death.

Edit: never mind, reread and I follow what you're saying a lot better now. Feel free to ignore above paragraph. Still, I do believe what is said below.

I do overall like your suggestion for the SF change, but the health loss is important to keep. Otherwise it's still ultra-gimmicky and ultra-overpowered. It would have to be like 5-8 seconds max to not involve at least some sort of penalty for use.

Gregslot · Jun 25, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Tyla, the idea is not to remove pressure, its to counter-attack. Thats what smiting line is all about. Enemies take damage while attacking, see [skill]smite[/skill] or [skill]spear of light[/skill] or [skill]Shield of Judgment[/skill] they all have a negative impact at the enemies offensive, not through negation (block, miss) but throught damage. While with this, the enemy will have 2 option, keep on attacking and take damage or stop attacking, either way its good for you and bad for the enemy. The way kirin's wrath is now, the option of keep on attacking is mostly the best choice (if not using frenzy), it needs to be equal. Take the example of you beeing attacked while with Shield of Jugdment, you have both options, but keep on attacking is certainly the worst thing you will do.
As for following the enemy, it does not need to. The point of it is you, as a caster standing at a position, start beeing attacked and you launch this conter-offensive while marking that position. If it has the power of beeing on you, it will turn into a offensive skill, not counter-offensive (we will start seeing assassins using it and attacking, see the point?).

Zelgadissan, i agree with you, even though you told to ignore your paragraph i would like to say something about it. Moving through the battlefield will not guarantee you will not be targeted, if i shadowstep to my monk, the monster can still follow me and will not get me out of the tight situation AND if you are beeing target of spells there is no point of shadowsteping at all! Shadowform, like i pruposed will stop that for sure.
About the duration, you are not considering the attribute distrubution, it will last only 10 seconds with 8 at shadow. 10 seconds go too fast, it may not look at theory, but it does. At least when using Intensity it ends really fast. And its 10 seconds to get yourself out of where you are (move back, run away, etc), not to simply ignore what is going on and keep on attacking. I would say 8 seconds at 8 if considering Dash or something like it. But the idea is to be used by all professions.

Tyla · Jun 25, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Yeah, a counter attack against bad players.

Moving out of such small AoE is easy.

Elena · Jun 25, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

for the love of...

okay say ure monking there's like 2 melee mobs punching on you, you cast kirin's wrath the aoe scatter triggers and go off you now u can focus on youre party again

Tyla · Jun 25, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

The Kirin's / Wrath changes were focused for both PvP and PvE. I was talking PvP.

DarkNecrid · Jun 25, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

if melee mobs are punching you, you should be kiting. If you're not kiting, then you're bad.

Taking a crap AoE skill (yes, its still crap after this buff) to do something like attacking guys attacking you = bad.

Trenixz · Jun 25, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

I completely agree with the shadow form change, in it's current state it can only possibly be a gimmicky farming tool. With it being a form, we would have to change the character's appearance. I'm thinking completely black with glowing red eyes (like the shadow army).

Shayne Hawke · Jun 25, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

@ SF: With [[Deadly Paradox] and an Essence of Celerity, this skill could still be kept up almost indefinitely. It's not so exploitable or vulnerable since it becomes a Form instead of an Enchantment, so keep that.

I would like that skill change only if the recharge was increased by a few seconds, to around 35-45, or if the end effect of losing health was kept, but not necessarily to the same extent.

No opinion on rest.

Div · Jun 26, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Moving out of such small AoE is easy.

Searing/teinai's + rodgorts killed 2 sins, 2 eles, and a necro in AB (along with shrine NPCs). Never mind that one of the sins didn't even have max armor.

Moving out of AoE is hard.

noneedforclevernames · Jun 26, 2008, 01:12 PM // 13:12

/notsigned since Shadow Form is already fine.

Stormlord Alex · Jun 26, 2008, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Kirin's / Symbol of Wrath need to be based on a target. A Monk in the melee position is a Monk in a bad position.

This - no matter how much you buff up Symbol/Kirin's, they're gonna suck untill you can target an ally with them, a la Balth's Aura and Ancestor's Rage.

Aura and rage are used in PvP for a reason, Krin's and Symbol are not. Tyla's right about it.