Curse

phan · Jun 29, 2008, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

-snipped this useless piece of crap & again by who else then [drums] tadadada Phoenix tears

Seriously ?

Your not even constructive & you insult Mister Noran

Its time to get ridden over by the banmoble for you ;

but no , pls phoenix every you post , I die a little inside

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Meh, too bored to do other classes, but you should see pattern.

You know you just critised Anet use / making of skills and not Noran ?

He adjusted them and you didn't comment the adjusts but the original point & meaning of the skills =)

Age · Jun 29, 2008, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I do agree with Endure Pain and Life Sheath

Aldric · Jun 29, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Splinter+ignite+barrage= spam 1 on keyboard.

Seems a waste to me. You'd spec Channeling/Mark/Expetise and WS for very little or no extra damage plus mob scatter ?

A Marks or Exp prep would seem more obvious if you were running splinter with a non stripable barrage.

Lishy · Jun 29, 2008, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Accumulated Pain
I honestly can't find a good use for this. It's kinda complicated for a normal spike and the end effect is not worth it for the requirements it has. That is why I think the ability should be changed to this:

Spell. Target foe takes 14...70 damage. If target foe is suffering from 1 or more mesmer hexes, that foe and all nearby foes suffer a Deep Wound for 5...14 seconds.

Giving it such an ability would also promote primary mesmers, as it requires a mesmer hex and causes a deep wound to all nearby foes in end result. This helps mesmers gain more acceptance into PuGs because they can put pressure while dealing good damage at the same time. However it would not be TOO cheap.
The deep wound would have to be reduced to 14 maximum seconds since its aoe though.

Also I think channeling should have increased range. You don't really get any energy that is actually worth it unless you are in the middle of a mob, which you SHOULDN'T be, as you are a caster. So I think it should be longbow range.

Sha Noran · Jun 29, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

Mark of Subversion {E} - Reduced recharge to 15 seconds. -agree (and E stands for Elite right? Mark of Subversion isn't an elite skill)

Lol, yeah that skill isn't an Elite. Oops, fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexandra-Sweet

I believe you're missing one major thing about all these changes, the monster's skill bars will be buffed aswell so low end PvE could become very hard. (especially when fighting bosses or big mobs)

I'm perfectly aware of the fact that this balance will increase the power of the game's enemies just as much as it increases the power of the players. This is partially why it's very difficult for me to believe that with these skill buffs, PvE will change in its overall difficulty very much at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Accumulated Pain
I honestly can't find a good use for this.

Accumulated Pain is an amazing skill already; it's essentially Deep Wound for free, instantly, at range, from a character that doesn't usually apply it. One copy of Accumulated Pain can be the difference maker (in effeciency terms) for any hex build. I was just hoping to buff it enough so that others might notice as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

The mes changes , while with good intentions wouldn't do much for player mesmers rather than the monsters. The 10 sec recharge on backfire would be an energy eater , maybe a 15 sec duration and a 20 sec recharge? Visions of Regret and tease would still be useless. If Shame and guilt got AoE , would the caster steal energy from every foe , and even then it would benefit the monsters more than the players.
Abedeus' idea about IW , if applied to wands and/or spears would be very nice.
Aneurysm and calculated risk need a buff.
The barrage buff is beyond insane.
The nerf on FoC is just pointless.

These comments struck me as particularly wrong for a very specific reason that I was hoping for the opportunity to explain.

It seems that many people opposed to my suggestions are nit-picking specific skills and failing to look at the broader picture. Visions of Regret would be far from useless. Yes, Backfire would be an energy eater, but at it's current recharge it's completely useless in PvE. If a player were to want the affect of Backfire, they might strive to work in energy management to allow themselves the flexibility to cast it regularly. With my versions of Guilt and Shame, players could gain quite a lot of energy with each cast, but only if they have the player-skill to cast it in a timely and appropriate location. Even without these buffs, a simple Glyph of Lesser Energy (with or without my change) is more than enough to power Backfire at my suggested recharge. I would urge for anyone trying to really understand my post to consider the affect on the game if all or most of these changes were made, not any skill change individually... those who pointed out that my changes to Aneurysm combined with the energy denial buffs might make such a build attractive if implemented together are the ones looking at this the way I put it together to be looked at.

That said, I would also like to point out that many people seem to be misinterpreting my suggestion for Illusionary Weaponry. Nothing would change about the skill except for it's skill type; that is, it's still only castable on yourself, and it still only does anything in melee.

Finally, those of you who think that my change to Feast of Corruption would be a nerf are simply ignorant of how skill variables even work. Feast of Corruption's recharge at it's current state makes the skill unplayable when compared with other super-powered PvE DPS machines like Spiteful Spirit, and that's just common sense; there are other better skills available too, particularly for a skill so obviously designed as an AoE attack spell. Simply lowering the recharge to 10 seconds without any other change makes this skill far too powerful, so I also would suggest increasing the skill's energy cost to 25. Necros have no problem with energy as it is, and I'm sure if Feast were to be buffed this way, a creative player would find plenty of ways to keep his energy rolling (Soul Reaping, glyphs, Signet of Lost Souls, Mesmer based energy returns, etc.).

Abedeus · Jun 29, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

About Feast of Corruption - Me/N with Suffering, Arcane Echo, then pew FoC, auspicious incantation, PEW second time. Pewpew on recharge.

edit: Yeah, energy intensive, that's why I would also use Signet of Corruption after first FoC and of course a +15/+15 wand/offhand combo.

Div · Jun 29, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

I don't think long skill balance lists are very helpful. It's hard enough making a few minor changes nowadays.

Glanced through it and decent list. Mesmer skills need to be AoE. The current trend with increasing power of skills is to tank and blow shit up, and mesmers simply can't do that. Back in prophecies, one could argue that a strong shutdown mesmer is just as good as big damage, but this isn't the case anymore. Things like backfire, empathy, etc. need to be AoE. Things like guilt need more useful skill effects, perhaps dealing initial AoE damage+energy drain upon cast. Things like plock needs to lock a skill for all enemies in the area. That's the only way for mesmers to see play in this day and age. Obviously you'll have to consider balance for monsters, but that's simpler to deal with.

kostolomac · Jun 29, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Sha Noran , could you explain me what benefits will vision of regret see if only it's duration and recharge are changed , it's still a useless elite to counter warriors and to some extent paragons , but with the monsters having halved bars with barely any adrenal skills it's worth even less.

@holymasamune: AoE to empathy is just overpowered , a small aoe to backfire with lowered damage is okay, but guilt and shame don't need AoE, imo they are ok , while they do not provide energy denial , they are great energy management (even without aoe) skills if used properly and guilt is very nice on bosses. Power lock and power block could have an aoe disable effect.

The spell stealing skills should not have the spell stolen at attribute level 0 , it should be scaled according to domination/inspiration level with a max spell level at 12 at 15 dom/insp.

R.Shayne · Jun 29, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

My request/suggestion, change titles skills and actually put them with a class and an attribute. The lightbringer skills are the only ones that should be tied to a title.

Kanyatta · Jun 29, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Its a pretty solid list in a lot of respects, although Anet will probably "tl;dr" this one, if they look at it at all.

Skye Marin · Jun 29, 2008, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I would urge for anyone trying to really understand my post to consider the affect on the game if all or most of these changes were made, not any skill change individually... those who pointed out that my changes to Aneurysm combined with the energy denial buffs might make such a build attractive if implemented together are the ones looking at this the way I put it together to be looked at.

Except that you don't have any changes to Aneurysm in your OP, and it's never mentioned on the first page. All the energy denial skill buffs are basically useless without the buff the Aneurysm, and I don't see where you suggested one.

Quote:

That said, I would also like to point out that many people seem to be misinterpreting my suggestion for Illusionary Weaponry. Nothing would change about the skill except for it's skill type; that is, it's still only castable on yourself, and it still only does anything in melee.

Then what's the point? Why not let Anet spend resources on something that matters?

Quote:

Finally, those of you who think that my change to Feast of Corruption would be a nerf are simply ignorant of how skill variables even work. Feast of Corruption's recharge at it's current state makes the skill unplayable when compared with other super-powered PvE DPS machines like Spiteful Spirit, and that's just common sense; there are other better skills available too, particularly for a skill so obviously designed as an AoE attack spell. Simply lowering the recharge to 10 seconds without any other change makes this skill far too powerful, so I also would suggest increasing the skill's energy cost to 25. Necros have no problem with energy as it is, and I'm sure if Feast were to be buffed this way, a creative player would find plenty of ways to keep his energy rolling (Soul Reaping, glyphs, Signet of Lost Souls, Mesmer based energy returns, etc.).

Having a 25e/10r FoC is just about as much of a waste of an elite slot as a 15e/20r FoC, and there is no core reason for the buff.

Few, if any, PvE necros would switch to your FoC over any other Necro elite, especially compared to Spiteful Spirit. Some using FoC exclusively previously would even look at it as a nerf. As a quick comparison, You can do more damage in 10 seconds as a N/Me with Clumsiness/Wandering Eye at r12 than you can with your FoC, and you save an elite slot. That's far from "too powerful".

What I'm saying is that, there is no tangible benefit to many of your proposed changes, and changing skills for no good reason is a waste of resources.

Age · Jun 30, 2008, 12:21 AM // 00:21

I don't know about empathy and backfire something more in the illusion line.

Sha Noran · Jun 30, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Except that you don't have any changes to Aneurysm in your OP, and it's never mentioned on the first page.

Yes, somehow it escaped my final draft; bizarre since I talked about it at length with Fenix and others before posting this. I took a break between typing the Necro and Mesmer bits, so that's probably how I lost it. Oh well, it's there now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

-snip-

...

What I'm saying is that, there is no tangible benefit to many of your proposed changes, and changing skills for no good reason is a waste of resources.

Your failure to understand the benefit does not necessarily mean that there is no benefit; and let's not talk about wasting resources when we've seen the release of a tedius rewording of each skill for no real purpose.

My views have been made clear, and thus my future responses to this thread will be limited to allow maximum focus on the second part of my suggestions.

Skye Marin · Jun 30, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Your failure to understand the benefit does not necessarily mean that there is no benefit; and let's not talk about wasting resources when we've seen the release of a tedius rewording of each skill for no real purpose.

My views have been made clear, and thus my future responses to this thread will be limited to allow maximum focus on the second part of my suggestions.

But I want to understand what you understand. Otherwise, I can't criticize, that is, otherwise you won't think my opinion is valid at all.

Your suggestion for Illusionary Weaponry

Quote:

Illusionary Weaponry - Modified skill type to Elite Weapon Spell.

So, the skill is no longer an enchantment and is now a weapon spell. Tell me if I'm missing something here:

Benefits:
-can't be stripped
-has synergies with other skills that benefit from weapon spells
-lengthened in duration via Spawning Power
-has the word "weapon" in the name, so should be changed?

Downsides:
-can't be stacked with other weapon spells
-can no longer be lengthed with +20% enchant mod
-breaks the class exclusivity of weapon spells from Rits?
-takes Anet's resources to change the skill and bug test it

I can't really see how the benefits of changing this skill outweigh the downsides.

If nothing changes in terms of skill use, tactical potential, DPS, or whatever other advantage, then what's the point?

Quote:

and let's not talk about wasting resources when we've seen the release of a tedius rewording of each skill for no real purpose.

I don't understand this either:

1) You acknowledge that Anet is capable of wasting resources
2) You dislike when they do waste resources
3) Unless it has to do with your skill changes, then you just don't want to talk about it?

Trenixz · Jun 30, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

I agree with most of these changes, and people seem to forget that [[choking gas] interrupts adjacent foes anyway, so the interaction with barrage does not make any difference. Besides, a big skill update like this would really shake up the game and possibly remove the stagnation of builds. I think it would be a lot better, at least for a little while, as people find new builds, which would encourage creativity.

zwei2stein · Jul 01, 2008, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan

You know you just critised Anet use / making of skills and not Noran ?

He adjusted them and you didn't comment the adjusts but the original point & meaning of the skills =)

Well, i criticized him for taking useless skills and adding useless buffs