Curse

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

This is just a reiteration of some ideas on one of the older threads about making the game harder.
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Basically....The idea is to allow the game to generate content unique to each instance, each time the party zones into a new area.

How can we do this without creating new maps/monsters/etc?

Simple.

By creating an algorithm of that checks the entire party's skillbar/weapons/attribute setups, as well as how many consumables you have, it then creates monster mobs to match and counter your entire team's build. (Yes i acknowledge that this is a programming nightmare).

Monster skills and compositions will be adjusted and changed to give you a very difficult time.

Monster will have full sets of 8 skills with res. Attack, defense, buffs, heals.

So regardless of whatever you bring to an instance, you will find the enemies ready for you.

How can players beat this? By creating balanced and mixed builds of course, that are capable of beating many builds.

Any gimmicky build would be instantly shredded. PvE skills would of course, be not allowed.

To keep the monster enemies from being a true "impossible" slogfest and still maintain some playabilty, the monster builds are not "perfect" counters. So if you have 10 enchantments in your party, you wont run into 10 enchantment removals. But every monster party will have some enchantment removal, so don't constantly rely on them. But if your build starts leaning towards homogeny, be prepared to be rendered useless. If you have 10 hexes, be prepared to have some of them removed. If you have slow casting but very powerful spells, be prepared to be interrupted.

I wanna see team builds with a use for every class. I wanna see player skill take precedence over character skill.

Now for reward. I would say, this kind of challenge would be a real reason for a new /rank or customized chest drops (after vanquishing an area).

Darkobra · Jul 14, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

I like the idea, but how would they counter consumables? Would there be any point buying and bringing them if they are countered?

zelgadissan · Jul 14, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Now for reward. I would say, this kind of challenge would be a real reason for a new /rank or customized chest drops (after vanquishing an area).

Aha! Somebody who wants more emotes!

j/k

I like the idea in principle, but it just seems a huge change when they're (supposedly) working on GW2. If they come out and say they're not releasing GW2 until late 2009/2010, then you'll have my full support.

But out of curiosity, does this mean there's only one enemy type in an area? For example, Grothmar Wardowns has multiple enemies of the same profession (dervish example - Mantid Digger, Skale Lasher). In theory wouldn't they have the exact same bar making them indistinguishable? I think fighting different species with the same bar would take a little bit of fun away. Maybe give each species a differing list of 10-15 skills they can choose from?

Edit: if this was really extreme mode, I say give the enemies your PvE skills - Cry of Pain, There's Nothing to Fear!, all that good junk.

Nightmares Hammer · Jul 14, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

if this was really extreme mode, I say give the enemies your PvE skills - Cry of Pain, There's Nothing to Fear!, all that good junk.

Save that for European Extreme Mode.

(kudos if you get the reference)

Anyway, this is a good idea, but I kinda doubt it will happen...

zelgadissan · Jul 14, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

^^Man, don't make me think about that again. The choking sequences give me nightmares to this day, and Fortune....omg, Fortune. But it does sound like a perfect fit, haha.

deathwearer · Jul 14, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Simple.

By creating an algorithm of that checks the entire party's skillbar/weapons/attribute setups, as well as how many consumables you have, it then creates monster mobs to match and counter your entire team's build.

I love the way you use the word simple probably without any programming abilities

HawkofStorms · Jul 14, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Wouldn't work (agree with deathwearer, far from simple).

You'd get hamstring warriors randomly created, or sin builds with incomplete attack chains.

TheRaven · Jul 14, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I agree with Death. As a programmer myself, I can tell that this is not simple and would require many more programming hours than Arenanet has available at this time.

I like the idea in principle. I've suggested it before, but I'd like to see an "Extreme mode" or whatever it's called with these options:
- Same as Hard mode.
- No pve skills allowed.
- No consumables
- Decreased party size. (normal 4 man areas have 3. 6 have 5 and 8 have 6)
- New drops unique to Extreme mode with an End chest appearing after vanquishing. End chest rewards are scaled to # of enemies vanquished. (ex. Vanquishing Shadow's Passage produces an end chest with crappy rewards)

jimmyboveto · Jul 14, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

I really like the idea. Also, if people can bring PvE skills, then monsters would also be able to equip them

However, I am sure that it would be way too much work to get this to work correctly. There are just too many places where A-net could screw up it matching skills against other skills.

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathwearer

I love the way you use the word simple probably without any programming abilities

Assumptions would get you kicked in the head. And coming from me, you wouldn't like it. I kick very very hard.

the idea is SIMPLE.

I never said the execution would be SIMPLE.

I was working on an "auto-balancer" program, which takes a skill and calculates its effectiveness based on its cost/recharge/cast time/aftercast as well as skills that it synergizes properly with, and skills the directly counter.

Of course it didn't work perfectly since I cant keep up with skill changes, bugs, exploits, or just weird synergies that i didnt take into account.

I'm quite aware of the programming nightmare, considering the amount of skills present in the game, as well as variables such as team composition, attribute spread, weapons, equipped armor, etc.

Not to mention possible exploits in such an algorithm.

However, this thread is not about viability, or difficulty. its about the CONCEPT.

deathwearer · Jul 14, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

You have to take such assumptions. Sugesting something to hard to do is like sugesting nothing. The concept isn't bad itself but some more thinking about it would be required to be possible.

miskav · Jul 14, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathwearer

You have to take such assumptions. Sugesting something to hard to do is like sugesting nothing. The concept isn't bad itself but some more thinking about it would be required to be possible.

Disagree with you there.

Something to hard to do is like suggesting nothing?
Maybe, but something that isn't worth doing at the current state the game is in, or for whatever reason, IS worth suggesting, maybe for follow up titles(GW2?) Or whatever other reason.

Bowstring Badass · Jul 14, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

How about this extreme mode = Your entire skill bar is set to that of a new player.... Honestly if you want harder pve either A) use a crappy skill bar or B) go to WoW and grind 8 characters to lvl70.

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

No Bowstring. You misunderstand completely.

This idea would force builds that try to cover their weak spots and anticipate counters to their skills, so they bring counter-counters.

Builds that rely on key skill-types would become useless, eliminating builds that rely on the skill and not the player.

For example. Monks rely heavily on spells and enchantments. Knowing this, a monk would know that they would run into counters to that, so their teammates would anticipate to run into anti-enchantments/spells/energy denial and protect their monks properly.

Elementalists have expensive spells and slow casting times, expect energy denial and interrupts from monsters. This would require builds with anti-interrupt, or force the enemy to waste their interrupts on unimportant spells so you can use the spell you really wanted.

Warriors...well warrior hate is plenty.

etc.

Do you see what im driving at here? Creating an environment that fosters creative, balanced and skillful gameplay in PVE.

No gimmicks can get through. No scrubs can get through.

Show that you can kite. Show you can cover enchant. Show you have proper positioning.

Show your gameplay SKILL. In the current state of pve with ursan and lack of challenge in HM, thats pretty extreme.

CoopaTroopa · Jul 14, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I think the most "extreme" PvE challenge would be something like a costume brawl, where your skills are set ahead of time and everyone has access to the same ones. That way, the pve only skills would automatically be taken out of the equation and you wouldn't have to customize the monster skills for each party. Even if you know exactly what skills the monsters have, you wouldn't be able to counter them with skill combinations of your own; you would have to use tactics and planning instead of just overpowered skill combos. To me, that would be the most interesting challenge. And just for kicks, you could even make them the pvp versions of the skills and ban consumables.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2008, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

it then creates monster mobs to match and counter your entire team's build.

That right there makes it seem less like Extreme Mode (I prefer Hell Mode), and more like "Impossible Mode." If builds are always going to be countered, then it won't really be possible to beat the monsters. Not to mention that it will take WAY to much coding. Adding new areas would end up being easier then adding a counter to each skill/build and raising difficulty based on how many consumables there are in the entire party's inventory.
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As for my suggestions:

A harder mode is needed, but what your suggesting is a mode that makes it seemingly impossible to beat. As no PvE-only skills will be allowed (good bye over half the builds around right there), monster builds will be based off of what your team's builds are (good bye everything there), and the difficulty increases with more consumables (no consumables=tough, some consumables=very tough).

Go a little bit easier. How about make all monsters with 8 skill bars, with one resurrection, only monks get a perma resurrect skills (and not all monks). Bosses, like in Hard Mode, won't be given any elite skills, or skills not found in that campaign. Each monster species (no matter what campaign) gets 10 builds, one per profession, and 3 profession builds are made to counter common gimmick builds.

Allow PvE-only skills, but not Elite PvE-only skills (that just removes 4 skills, with how much monsters improve, some PvE-only skills are needed, such as Critical Agility for Assassins, amount others). All chests in "Extreme Mode" will drop only golds and all be Locked Chests, needing Lockpicks. The base for retaining is 0% and is still affected by both Lucky and Treasure Hunter titles.

You can only get Extreme Mode when you have Vanquished all areas of one campaign, and thats Extreme Mode per campaign.

That's all I have for a harder mode right now. I might edit this later if I get more ideas.

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

You need to stop thinking inside the box.

The monster counters are intended to be "impossible" but beatable. You just have to know your own weaknesses and be prepared for it. Obviously tweaking and balancing would be needed but it will still lean towards HARD.

The monster builds should be, imo, based on balanced builds, and skills will change slightly to counter teams which are heavier on certain types of skills.

As for coding wise...The game already knows which skills are enchantments, and which skills work vs enchantments and which wont. It already knows which classes have the lowest armor, and which classes have slow casting skills. How much of a stretch is it to say:

if team A has ___ enchantment, monster team B has ____ anti-enchantment.
if team A has 7 warriors, monster team B has Dervish with Ebon Dust AUra, Ele with Blinding surge, ranger with Dust Trap and Necro with spiteful spirit.

romeus petrus · Jul 14, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Although the idea of an extreme mode is appealing I cant help but /notsign if it is all about title grinding.

lyra_song · Jul 14, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Although the idea of an extreme mode is appealing I cant help but /notsign if it is all about title grinding.

Well some people would definitely want titles and rewards for something so difficult, hence i mentioned the rank/weapons/armor. Glitzy stuff for the epeen-chasers.

Me? I just want a REAL and PROPER Hardmode. Not just SLOWER Normal mode.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 14, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I'm not really thinking inside the box. But your wording is saying that even bringing counters for the counters of your builds will be countered. I am saying, for making coding easier, to give most monsters a counter to most gimmick builds. This would need counters to the enemies' builds but your counters won't be countered, which is what your suggesting.

Also, your need to think logically. If you bring a build that has counters, but you also have a few skills that counters the counters to your build, those first counters (the ones that the enemy has) are no longer true counters, and by what your wanting, the monsters will just bring a counter to the counters that you brought, which will mean that you will need a counter to the counters of your counter, which ends up making an ENDLESS CYCLE OF COUNTERS THAT WON'T WORK!

That is what I was saying without trying to be confusing about what you said. But you forced me to have to use the word "counter" 50 million times to say how your idea won't work. You cannot have a "counter for each build/skill brought" because that would then make it IMPOSSIBLE to beat as when you bring a counter, they will bring a counter to your counter.

It will NEVER stop being a COUNTER OF COUNTERS! Monsters NEED a fix build in PvE, the coding alone would be too much to bother with if you have it so monsters have a counter to your skills and/or builds. What your asking is for there to be an endless amount of counters and builds that just have counters to counters. Which aren't even builds!

What I said is not only easier to do, but much more logical AND it makes the version even POSSIBLE!

PLEASE! Use some logic in what you want and THINK about what you want.

What you want will never happen because it will just make everyone, including yourself, rage quit because you will get no where with all the counters your wanting.

I'd rather have fixed crappy builds then counters to everything I bring.