Curse

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

I'm attacking someone on their expressions because it's the only support they've given to their reasoning. If you went to any reasonable practise and presented your thesis with only opinions to support it, how seriously would you be taken? Tyla has told us nothing on why these builds are degenerate other tham that they don't fit his ideal on what a ranger should play. Saying that a build is mindless button mashing is extremely vauge and provides no actual insight into why expertise should be nerfed. If you have an opinion, that's fine, but don't state it as a fact inless you have the evidence to support it.

If you're not here to give an actual "reasoned" arguement, I'd take your words to heart.

Mindless buttonmashing, is a primary reason.
But I would to see it nerfed mostly because it doesn't fit the role a Ranger is supposed to be doing.

Remove the second part, and you've got a more viable argument, yes..
But the mindless buttonmashing thing says why it should be nerfed. Being able to roll your head on a keyboard and win something, anything shouldn't be allowed, just like why 'Sins were nerfed.
Bloodspike is the same problem.

And if you want evidence, look at all the ranked shitways in HA.

blakecraw · Apr 05, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker

still waiting for someone to tell me to stop playing critical cruel spear lol

stop playing critical cruel spear. play critical vicious attack

N1ghtstalker · Apr 05, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakecraw

stop playing critical cruel spear. play critical vicious attack

me wants template in mah inbox

Splitisoda · Apr 05, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

R/W - Aura of Stability to victory!

R/D - any of the other numerous melee shutdowns you should have. i mean escape doesnt even give an IAS, uses their elite, and only helps their own dodge chance. i just dont understand how it has gotten as far as it has, it really doesnt seem like a good build. why even go ranger primary... at least you get wounding strike as a derv

R/Rt - oath shot spirit spammer please keep theyre hilarious!

R/A - i never understood why going ranger primary was better... yay +30 vs elements? i guess

R/P - funny. at least pets are viable. (has anyone ever done an enraged lunge spike? now that you can target it might work :P)

R/N - i congratulate people who can press 1-2 and the occasional OoB and not get bored out of their minds.

well... my point being i dont see why expertise is so detrimental to the game. its no where near as poorly constructed as soul reaping/leadership. although it does have some hax e-management, rangers need it, and making them waste attribute points for it is the consequence.
are there any skills useful linked to expertise? glass arrows? thats it. d-shot doesnt benefit from expertise. practiced stance/CG has dissapeared (i thought it was a funny build..too bad..)

i have still yet to see a coherent point as to why r/d are killing the meta. i had seen many before the explosion of them in HA, and they werent good then and i dont see how they can be good now.

give real points please.

edit: rangers need expertise to work other weapons primarily because bow attacks just fail. quite a lot.

Bow attacks fail? Anet had to shutdown Ranger Turrets.

Cripshot stops ANYTHING coming at you.

There are about 4 stances used ALOT in expertise, not to mention throw dirt, and the half range shots can deal out alot of damage.

Really, pressing the same skills is boring? O hai sins, u must be encredibly bord MIRITE?

R/A can go on FOREVER. I've seen DB/MB last a frick load of time, especially with zealous daggers.

Escape is good because its an IS, and it can protect you from melees, and the fact that rangers have 100 armor against elements makes it so mesmers and necros are mostly the only way to take them down.

Shadow Kurd · Apr 05, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

OMFG let this thread die alrdy!

Azora · Apr 05, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitisoda

/signed...

Finally, you can see rangers use ANY secondary proffesion to an advantage,
/E for conjure
/Mo Mending Touch
/W for IAS, and thumper
/A for dagger skills
/Me for Epidemic
/Rt for Spirit Spamming
/D for Scythe
/N Toucher
/P for Spear/Pet

And if you list counters for all those builds, i can think of a counter for your build like it takes no skill.

Why so much hate?
did u never saw in any post " rangers are one of the most or even the most versatil profession"?

geez if u are so nervous cause rangers can do EVERITHYNG just create one!

They are my favourite class ever and gess wat? they are good!

ESCAPE= nerf = i go to Anet hk AND

R/E conjuRE fire THEM!
R/Mo Mending Touch ME MAKING ME IMUNE TO THEIR "GET OUT" CONDITION
R/W and thump THEM LIKE BUNNIES
R/A STABB my DAGGERS IN THEIR BACK WITH LOW ENERGY COST
R/Me Epidemic EVERYONE INSIDE THE BUILDING
R/Rt Spirit Spamming THE STREET SO THAT THEY CANT LEAVE WITHOUT GETTING KILLED
R/D CHASE THEM WITHOU GETTING HITTED BY A STUIPIDD SHOCK AXE WARRIOR
R/N TOUCH THEM MAKING THEM FEEL STUPID
R/P MAKE MY BLACK MOA EAT THEIR LEGGS LIKE EGGS FOR BREACKFAST

gg

Azora

Skyy High · Apr 05, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

"These builds are mainly skillless, as the people who play them. C-Space then mash the 12345678 keys."

Give those same idiots a standard warrior build and they'd do the same damn thing. Or they'd run a mending wammo. Is that so much better?

There's room to grow for an experienced player, room for skill to make a difference, in a warrior. There's also room for that in a thumper. There is most certainly more room in a warrior, which is why warriors are used in GvG and not thumpers, but you can't deny that there could be more to a thumper than just spamming skills on recharge, just as a warrior could be run (rather effectively) as a c-space button masher.

Making it so that people can't use their secondaries as effectively as they can now won't stop people from running c-space button-mashing builds, bottom line, which is why all of this anti-thumping hate is horribly misplaced. If you want to nerf a build because it is mindless but powerful, by all means, nerf it, but don't take out EVERY secondary-skills-used-with-primary-attribute build in the game because of it, because that's just unnecessary stifling of profession synergy.

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Thumper requires skill?

Plz tell me how?

And for those who think RaO can be run by a warrior, he should get a braincheck.

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Give those same idiots a standard warrior build and they'd do the same damn thing. Or they'd run a mending wammo. Is that so much better?

There's room to grow for an experienced player, room for skill to make a difference, in a warrior. There's also room for that in a thumper. There is most certainly more room in a warrior, which is why warriors are used in GvG and not thumpers, but you can't deny that there could be more to a thumper than just spamming skills on recharge, just as a warrior could be run (rather effectively) as a c-space button masher.

Making it so that people can't use their secondaries as effectively as they can now won't stop people from running c-space button-mashing builds, bottom line, which is why all of this anti-thumping hate is horribly misplaced. If you want to nerf a build because it is mindless but powerful, by all means, nerf it, but don't take out EVERY secondary-skills-used-with-primary-attribute build in the game because of it, because that's just unnecessary stifling of profession synergy.

/Sigh...
Thumpers are infact used in GvG. Play it and go observe. The same C-space to fame idiots think they can get high and mighty with these shitty gimmicks there aswell.
And people use these builds why? Because they are brainless and they win versus some people.
Yet the people who are bad at the game but wish to get better suffer, aswell as people who want to play to have fun.

shru · Apr 05, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Thumper requires skill?

Plz tell me how?

And for those who think RaO can be run by a warrior, he should get a braincheck.

I'm pretty sure he was saying that if you nerf thumpers, the people playing them would just join the ranks of wammos again.
And idk where you got the idea that someone in this thread was implying that warriors should run RaO, maybe you should read a little more carefully.

Yuhe Ji · Apr 05, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Just because R/W and R/D are powerful cookie cutter builds doesn't make them any easier to use than a lot of the other cookie cutter builds out there. If your argument is against using builds like that in general, it should not be in this thread, as this is supposed to be an argument about expertise.

I don't think Thumpers and Escape Scythes can replace a warrior or dervish in most cases. Warriors can do more damage than a thumper and have greater armor while dervishes have higher spike ability and make use of enchantments.

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

I'm pretty sure he was saying that if you nerf thumpers, the people playing them would just join the ranks of wammos again.
And idk where you got the idea that someone in this thread was implying that warriors should run RaO, maybe you should read a little more carefully.

Nope, he said that "It would be interesting to see warrior run RaO" and "Thumpers only use 1 energy skill from warrior."

I lol'd hard.

shru · Apr 05, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Nope, he said that "It would be interesting to see warrior run RaO" and "Thumpers only use 1 energy skill from warrior."

I lol'd hard.

That was me, and you've completely jumbled up my comments. The "It would be interesting to see a warrior run RaO" was a sarcastic comment to another person misunderstanding my earlier sarcasm, which if you took the time to actualy read it, was used to describe the advantages of a R/W thumper over a hammer warrior (namely the perma 33% IAS and speed boost). And The fact that the only warrior skill on a thumper's bar that requires energy is true, I've seen no other energy skill other than crushing blow on a thumper. Care to enlighten me on what's so funny?
See:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

A Warrior should use Rampage as One?

That'd be fun to watch, but my point was more or less that thumpers have an edge over warriors because of said skills.

Tyla · Apr 05, 2008, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuhe Ji

Just because R/W and R/D are powerful cookie cutter builds doesn't make them any easier to use than a lot of the other cookie cutter builds out there. If your argument is against using builds like that in general, it should not be in this thread, as this is supposed to be an argument about expertise.

I don't think Thumpers and Escape Scythes can replace a warrior or dervish in most cases. Warriors can do more damage than a thumper and have greater armor while dervishes have higher spike ability and make use of enchantments.

/Facepalm...
Nobody should be able to play a build so powerful (Well, yeah it's weak but it's powerful in it's own way) and win. C-Spacing to fame?
Degenerate play. Degenerate build. But the main thing is degenerate play.

And my argument about using those builds in general is infact very viable. Again, it's degenerating PvP. Switch on HoH observe. You see many R/D-ways. Mostly R/D-way vs R/D-way vs. Balanced.

Either way, with Thumpers. RaO is a pretty stupid skill in itself. You get unstrippable IAS, and on the same bar, increased speed.
The ability to abuse secondaries and play it with such ease...ugh...

Moloch Vein · Apr 05, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

And for a long time, eles used HP better than monks, and were integral to party support because of it. Paragons use warrior shouts better than warriors. Warriors use Shock better than an ele. Mesmers use Gale better than an ele. All casters use GoLE better than an ele, and that's a primary skill.

Short answers: Leadership is broken. Warriors can't spam Shock on recharge. I'm not claiming no other problems exist with the design of the game than Leadership. I'm saying that the problems pertaining to Expertise are worse.

Quote:

So...what's the problem here? Some classes can use secondary skills better than their secondary, this isn't exactly news. A toucher is a blood necro done ranger-style, or a ranger vampire, whichever way you want to look at it.

No. It's an example of abuse of a primary attribute, that is just as bad as the N/Rt healers abusing Soul Reaping for energy gain. Arenanet responded to this problem by nerfing Soul Reaping, several times.

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

That was me, and you've completely jumbled up my comments. The "It would be interesting to see a warrior run RaO" was a sarcastic comment to another person misunderstanding my earlier sarcasm, which if you took the time to actualy read it, was used to describe the advantages of a R/W thumper over a hammer warrior. And The fact that the only warrior skill on a thumper's bar that requires energy is true, I've seen no other energy skill other than crushing blow on a thumper. Care to enlighten me on what's so funny?

And by saying so, you imply that a warrior can run RaO because the only e-skill is crushing bow.

Well, try to run RaO with a warrior and see

. That's the funniest part. Honestly, I'd rather run Hamstring.

Btw, some ppl run RaO with Wild Blow too, but that is not the point.

shru · Apr 05, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

And by saying so, you imply that a warrior can run RaO because the only e-skill is crushing bow.

Well, try to run RaO with a warrior and see

. That's the funniest part. Honestly, I'd rather run Hamstring.

Btw, some ppl run RaO with Wild Blow too, but that is not the point.

I'm glad you have eyes, now try actualy using them and read.....

Since you're having a few problems I'll try to help you out here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

-4% for Ranger skills, -2% else

When a hammer ranger puts out more pressure than a hammer warrior, there's a problem. (etc.)

Maybe a Warrior should try using a 33% unstripable IAS/Speed buff (Rampage as One), an on call daze (Bestial mauling), and extra damage added in seperate packets (pet).....none of those are expertise linked, idk why you want to change expertise to fix thumpers that only use one warrior skill that requires energy (crushing blow).......

IDK why you think I'm implying a warrior to run RaO. Maybe you should try thinking before posting? I think I made it quite clear that every advantage a thumper has over a warrior is not expertise linked, so nerfing the attribute would do nothing for the situation, as the only skill effected would be "Crushing Blow".

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

I'm glad you have eyes, now try actualy using them and read.....

Uhm, seem like you still don't get it

Ok, try running a RaO at 0 expertise and enjoy.

shru · Apr 05, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by yum

Uhm, seem like you still don't get it

Ok, try running a RaO at 0 expertise and enjoy.

This is a thread suggesting that the ranger attribute Expertise, should not be applied to secondary skills, idk why you suddenly thought that meant get rid of it all together?

yum · Apr 05, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by shru

This is a thread suggesting that the ranger attribute Expertise, should not be applied to secondary skills, idk why you suddenly thought that meant get rid of it all together?

And I have no idea why you think fixing expertise would get rid of RaO in the first place???

Edit: and RaO is broken too, second that