Curse

spyke136 · Aug 04, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

gah. everyone's always complained about pugging and how it's unreliable and nothing ever gets completed and that most players are dumb.

now ursan lets anyone pug and get things done quickly and efficiently without much trouble and people complain that now you have to pug a certain way.

seriously this game is about pleasing the MAJORITY, not the minority. that's it.

isamu kurosawa · Aug 04, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyke136

gah. everyone's always complained about pugging and how it's unreliable and nothing ever gets completed and that most players are dumb.

now ursan lets anyone pug and get things done quickly and efficiently without much trouble and people complain that now you have to pug a certain way.

seriously this game is about pleasing the MAJORITY, not the minority. that's it.

The game was about skill > time. That was the main reason many people chose to play gw instead of one of the many other rpgs's out there. Catering to idiots it a bad idea.

Tyla · Aug 04, 2008, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyke136

gah. everyone's always complained about pugging and how it's unreliable and nothing ever gets completed and that most players are dumb.

now ursan lets anyone pug and get things done quickly and efficiently without much trouble and people complain that now you have to pug a certain way.

Quickly and efficiently, yet you still have to grind to power the skill up and gain admission into PuGs.

Quote:

seriously this game is about pleasing the MAJORITY, not the minority. that's it.

No, this game was about the only grind being cosmetic, skill bars, player skill and smart choices through the usage of skills and tactics. If the game was about pleasing the majority, then the PvE/P split would have happened ages ago, and the minority of today won't be saying what skills need to be changed. Ursan threw all three of them away, some other things player skill and after Factions, grind. If Ursan was truly to help, then it wouldn't be based on a title.

Sin City Gamer · Aug 04, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonx1013

As far as the subject is concerned I am not signed. The economy did suffer but the UB gives people who like to work solo (as in alone, no solo builds) closer access to areas of the game that people used. To use ANOTHER analogy, the rich get rich off an idea. A poor man finds a way to do the rich mans work, and sweat less doing it. hence, the rich man has to work hard and find something else. Should the poor man be penalized? That is basically what you are saying when you (as in any gamer) refer to the "drop of price" in any item. It dropped because everyone else found a way to get them.

Besides, I have seen this topic posted everywhere, a lot on this forum alone! If you read the articles, ANet is looking into changing the skill. I would past the articles, but that involves me getting them, and they have been pasted so much that you can find it virtually anywhere. Yes the community did uproar about UB being powerful (hence ANet looking into it) however, I honestly think that most (NOT YOU) people who complained made a "guild wars" life off of selling ectos and are now complaining cause everyone else can get ectos and they have to find more to do.

/ Not signed

Holy crap on a stick, an intelligent argument for the pro-Ursan side!

Dragonx, I commend you and thank you for your valuable input.

Anybody else out there feel up to the challenge of not being a DLDU-chanting maroon?

Now, to address your points: No, a knee jerk reaction of penalizing the "poor man" isn't fair; I agree with that. However, the ecto farming issue was brought up in my OP merely as an example (specifically Perma SF Sin farming) of ANet doing the right thing in fixing a broken situation. Granted, there were new SF builds within hours of the "nerf", but that shows the ingenuity of good players.

When considering UB, my (personal) gripe is not the value of certain farmable items, nor is it the fact that pugging is next to impossible w/o R10. (Honestly, my main character is a mesmer in PvE... I can't pug anywhere anyway XD) My gripe is that UB goes against everything ANet said they wanted to accomplish with GW: namely anti-grind, skill > time, and build versatility.

Regarding the countless other "Nerf Ursan" threads out there: Yes, I've seen them and yes, I've read them. And quite frankly, they almost all made me cringe. On a good note, this particular thread has been around for a bit, and I'd like to hope that's because it's not like the others. I'm actually fairly happy with the discussion so far. Valid points have been made on both sides, and all of the groupthink responses have been fairly obvious for what they really are.

On another issue that has been brought up: Rank discrimination.

I am not against all forms of discrimination. I don't have very impressive PvP titles. Why? Because I'm not very experienced in PvP. If a team in HA doesn't want to let me in because I don't meet thier rank requirements, that's fine. They have every right to be concerned about my ability in HA. Again, there are many ways to "farm" fame, but I don't use them. Yes' I would love to be involved in a R8+ group, but I'll get there on my own 2 feet, tyvm. UB's inherent rank discrimination is ridiculously biased towards time > skill. I could get into an Ursan pug, not use Ursan, and STILL contribute quite a bit to the success of the team. I've done it before. BUT, the odds of that happening on a regular basis are slim to none, because the average bear can't see past his own paws, let alone see how much a non-ursan could help.

oh, and spyke. If you want to contribute something intelligent and meaningful to the discussion, please feel free. Otherwise, go back to your "R10 Ursan lfg". kthxbai.

JupiterStarWarrior · Aug 05, 2008, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Hm. The only thing I don't like about Ursan Blessing is the fact that you MUST grind to get it; I don't have the time to go out and farm for Norn points to boost the skill. Besides, I myself am a Mesmer; I'd rather use something that could help the group (like Fast Cast Heal if I really wanted to; I don't, but still), or Energy Denial or Interrupts or whatever to support the team. Those who refuse to take a good Mesmer ought to fight against a Mesmer, especially when one is equipped with Cry of Frustration...

ANYWHO, skilled players use Ursan Blessing; he's my Guild Leader, and he's been around Guild Wars for some time. He's not a newb, and he doesn't suck. He takes advantage of the build, but it's still not unbeatable. Energy deny an Ursan, you win (especially a Warrior who has little energy in the first place). Still...

At this point, I don't care; I don't use it. The way I am right now, though... I'm too weak (Norn-points wise, anyway) to do anything about it.

Sad that Mesmers don't get picked up sometimes... *holds out thumb as he walks along a highway...* *A car comes by with a bunch of bears and a couple of Monks, who promptly laugh at the Mesmer going by...* *sighs*

Sin City Gamer · Aug 05, 2008, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JupiterStarWarrior

Sad that Mesmers don't get picked up sometimes... *holds out thumb as he walks along a highway...* *A car comes by with a bunch of bears and a couple of Monks, who promptly laugh at the Mesmer going by...* *sighs*

I lol'd. A lot.

JupiterStarWarrior · Aug 05, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin City Gamer

I lol'd. A lot.

LOL! You know what the ironic thing is? I can actually imagine a web-comic with that particular scene (I honestly suck at drawing, so I can't do it).

But...

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

Stockholm · Aug 05, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

The game was about skill > time. That was the main reason many people chose to play gw instead of one of the many other rpgs's out there. Catering to idiots it a bad idea.

Thanks to the "idiots" A-Net and NC-Soft can afford to keep the servers open so the hoarders and no lifers have a "sandbox" to play in.

If they nerf Ursan they are telling the average player that they don't give a shit about them and they might as well stay away from any further games published by A-Net, as GW2, since only a very small minority of the player base counts. That will sit well with the pencil pushers at NC-Soft headquarters.

Shadowmoon · Aug 05, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

The game was about skill > time. That was the main reason many people chose to play gw instead of one of the many other rpgs's out there. Catering to idiots it a bad idea.

skill>time been dead for a long time. to be honest guild wars still it the best at the theme. there is no mudflation with gear, Just a few reputation titles that adds some character development into pve, which alot of players wanted. Pvp is not gear dependant, don't see horrible players running around in teir X armor owning everyone because they have 1000 more life and 20 stats higher than everyone else. It all about your skills, builds, and armor and waepon set up. Pvp is skill>time.

glacialphoenix · Aug 05, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

What really, really irritates me is that while Ursan Blessing on one single player doesn't seem that fantastically strong, ursanway itself is imbalanced. It's so imbalanced that you can't get a PUG without ursanway - heck, there are people so convinced ursanway is everything that they try to ursanway Snowmen.

Also, am I the only one who sees people wanting certain classes for ursan anyway? Casters in ursan are STILL squishy ursans, y'know, considering they'll still have 20 armor less than warriors or paragons. I've seen people out there who ask for warriors specifically because of the additional armor. And, of course, there's always the rank. Yes, you got r10 through your time and effort. That's fair enough. It doesn't mean that the person who's r6 can't play, which is the mentality I see most often amongst ursan groups. I've had people pitch a fit because "HE'S TOO WEAK HE'LL KILL US ALL" just because the poor sod's not r10.

and a rather offtopic note to the mesmers: I wish I saw more of you guys around. *perpetually with Gwen in her hero lineup as shutdown

daze · Aug 05, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

You are right... Anet should totally make Ursan available in PvP. Un-Nerfed of course

Tyla · Aug 05, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Thanks to the "idiots" A-Net and NC-Soft can afford to keep the servers open so the hoarders and no lifers have a "sandbox" to play in.

You mean how the game was starting to slow down money-wise after the release of Factions and beyond?

Quote:

If they nerf Ursan they are telling the average player that they don't give a shit about them and they might as well stay away from any further games published by A-Net, as GW2, since only a very small minority of the player base counts. That will sit well with the pencil pushers at NC-Soft headquarters.

You mean like how when they implimented Ursan they told the entire playerbase they don't give a shit about the game as a whole?

Stockholm · Aug 05, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You mean how the game was starting to slow down money-wise after the release of Factions and beyond?

And where have you got that info from? Any links to financial statements?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You mean like how when they implemented Ursan they told the entire playerbase they don't give a shit about the game as a whole?

Contrary to common beliefs here on Guru, the majority of the player base is very happy with Ursan, but then again they only play the game don't live it.

Tyla · Aug 05, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

And where have you got that info from? Any links to financial statements?

I believe it was seen in Avarre's Open Letter to Arena Net - Part 2 thread.

Quote:

Contrary to common beliefs here on Guru, the majority of the player base is very happy with Ursan, but then again they only play the game don't live it.

So because people like it, it is somehow not broken and going against the game?

I abuse stuff, but I know it should be nerfed. I'll happily abuse Ursan now just to get what I want too, because it's the only choice in PuGs. The only problem with me is the link to grind, and not having a high Norn rank, although participation is a minor problem in terms of Ursan.

If it gets nerfed, the people who actually give a shit about the change will be here, GWOnline or some other community site and explain why they won't like it.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 05, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Contrary to common beliefs here on Guru, the majority of the player base is very happy with Ursan

And you know this how?

Still, it might be true. Most who were really really unhappy with Ursan, like me, probably don't play any more.

Freke · Aug 05, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

"OMG I'M MAD OTHER PEOPLE ARE HAVING AN EASIER TIME AND HAVING FUN TOO, I RAGEQUIT!"

And Tyla you basically admitted you're a hypocrite. And, since you dont have fun (or so implied) when youre using Ursan, why are you? Because it gets you moAr stuff?

You have stopped actually having fun with the game and started to actually devote your life to it, while most people that use it use it for fun.

Just because it's one persons way of having fun and you dont have fun while you use it doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

Your opinion isn't the be-all-end-all opinion, just FYI.

Edit: And Numa, if you're not playing anymore why are you still HERE? Leave.

Tyla · Aug 05, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

"OMG I'M MAD OTHER PEOPLE ARE HAVING AN EASIER TIME AND HAVING FUN TOO, I RAGEQUIT!"

And Tyla you basically admitted you're a hypocrite. And, since you dont have fun (or so implied) when youre using Ursan, why are you? Because it gets you moAr stuff?

I can literallly mash my keyboard, and moving doesn't take much effort either so I can simply turn my head to the television watching a DVD at the same time. The reason I'd abuse Ursan in the first place? It's there to abuse, as is Imbagon and so on. I'd rather get things the easy way if there is an easy way, because it saves me time and energy and I still understand this needs to be nerfed. Oh, and the first part of that has what to do with the reasons I earlier listed? Oh, nothing.

Quote:

You have stopped actually having fun with the game and started to actually devote your life to it, while most people that use it use it for fun.

Oh no, when things get mindlessly easy while abusable at the same time I might as well abuse them, especially since I can do two different things at once. Effort is needed minimally in PvE now, especially with all this abusable shit.

Quote:

Just because it's one persons way of having fun and you dont have fun while you use it doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

Your opinion isn't the be-all-end-all opinion, just FYI.

Are you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ignorant? For the final time, read the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing thread and come up with an argument against them reasons that is actually half viable before evading them and saying "U DUN HAV FUN WITH IT MEEN IT NEED NERF?!!!?!!".

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Edit: And Numa, if you're not playing anymore why are you still HERE? Leave.

I believe Avarre and alot of other people have quit but still post. They still have the right to post, and you don't have the right to tell them otherwise.

glacialphoenix · Aug 05, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

And, since you dont have fun (or so implied) when youre using Ursan, why are you? Because it gets you moAr stuff?

Tyla said why: Because you can't PuG without Ursan. And, y'know, it's not like Every Single Guildie will be online and available to play with you everytime you want to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freke

You have stopped actually having fun with the game and started to actually devote your life to it, while most people that use it use it for fun.

That's a pretty big assumption, don't you think? Just because someone doesn't enjoy Ursan Blessing doesn't mean they can't enjoy the game, they just don't enjoy Ursanway. Which, y'know, just happens to be the current gamebreaking meta which every single PUG out there demands that you use.

Stockholm · Aug 05, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

They still have the right to post, and you don't have the right to tell them otherwise.

You mean the same right people have to use Ursan and like it, and you don't have the right to tell them that it is wrong?

If yes, then at least we can agree on something.
If no, then they don't have any say about the game anymore.

And it will be very interesting to see on Thursday how hard they nerfed Ursan, if they nerfed it to hard they most likely killed GW2 before they even got it to beta, and if they went to light on it then they pissed off the hardcore players. I think NC-Soft needs to step in and have a say regarding whats more important a few hardcore players or the majority of players.

Tyla · Aug 05, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

You mean the same right people have to use Ursan and like it, and you don't have the right to tell them that it is wrong?

Oh, people can like Ursan...

But in balance issues and with reasons riding against it, liking something has absolutely no bearing on why it should or shouldn't be balanced.