Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 14, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

I'm saying it's OP because you can have perfect build synergy, anytime, all the time.Sure you can get that, and with PvE skills even more so, in guild teams but let's be realistic here.

Then I guess that's where most of our differences come from in this debate. Personally, I feel there's nothing wrong with being able to play a solid team build any time. I'll still play with friends and guild teams if they're doing something, but when I'm alone I still like the ability to play at a similar level of ability.

fireflyry · Jul 14, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

I'm exactly the same but anticipate that if this ever did happen it's main implementation would be OP'd perfect synergy H/H teams steam rolling the whole game as opposed to a solid team build that is comparative to a good all-human setup.

Look at the popularity and use of the current OP'd team builds like Sabway.The reason they are so popular is that in most cases they are actually better than the average all-human team excluding the use of OP'd player builds like Dragon Slash SY or Imbagon.

It's more the negative ramifications that I'm concerned with as I certainly like the idea but would hate for GW to turn into Dungeon Siege due to the fact H/Hing would in many cases be hugely preferable to human teams, more so than it is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Personally, I feel there's nothing wrong with being able to play a solid team build any time. I'll still play with friends and guild teams if they're doing something, but when I'm alone I still like the ability to play at a similar level of ability.

100% agreed.

Kanyatta · Jul 14, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Look at the popularity and use of the current OP'd team builds like Sabway.The reason they are so popular is that in most cases they are actually better than the average all-human team excluding the use of OP'd player builds like Dragon Slash SY or Imbagon.

Another interesting point raised. Sabway would basically die because a full balanced Hero team build would probably end up being better than 3 imbamancers with henchies, but I still can't see how pitifully stupid Hero AI could outshine a team of 8 solid guildies. With the introduction of 7 heroes, it wouldn't eliminate anyone's ability to team up with friends or guildies or even PuG's if you so chose to. I really don't see how this would drastically destroy anyone's gameplay experience by implementing it.

Age · Jul 14, 2008, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Rez on PvE bars = Your doing it wrong.

If an 8-man team needs 8 rezzes there is something seriously at fault with the team.I've never seen a need for more than 2 hard rezzes anywhere but thats another thread me thinks.

No.You are doing it wrong all 8 members of a group should bring a res. of some kind.I would hope most would bring a hard res in a group.

What I am really saying here is other expect the Monk to do the ressing even in mid battle thisis because they see the henchies doing it or heros as when they first start playing the game.

vandevere · Jul 14, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

No.You are doing it wrong all 8 members of a group should bring a res. of some kind.I would hope most would bring a hard res in a group.

What I am really saying here is other expect the Monk to do the ressing even in mid battle thisis because they see the henchies doing it or heros as when they first start playing the game.

I always try to carry a res of some sort in my non-Healing characters. It simply makes sense to do so...

Vandevere

fireflyry · Jul 14, 2008, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

No.You are doing it wrong all 8 members of a group should bring a res. of some kind.I would hope most would bring a hard res in a group.

What I am really saying here is other expect the Monk to do the ressing even in mid battle thisis because they see the henchies doing it or heros as when they first start playing the game.

lol.

If your team is dying that much that they need 8 rezzes you are in fact doing it wrong.I've never needed a rez on my bar in 2+ years of playing.None of my friends or guildies use them unless they are backline support, most PuG's I've been in kick or laugh at those outside of support classes that bring them.

There are more effective ways to play than assuming you will all die.8 rezzes is both playing it safe and compensating for a crap team.

As for your monk comment yes.I expect at least one backline to bring support skills including a rez.Thats their job, to support the team, and as such I view a rez fitting this role.I help kill things, they help me kill things by keeping me alive.That's the very definition of support classes and if you don't like it I'd suggest not playing one like I do.As for people expecting rezzes mid-battle I agree they are idiots most of the time but there are obvious exceptions.

Necessity dictates both need and relevance and I just can't see either being applicable to a team with 8 rezzes.It's overkill and your taking away 4-6 offensive/defensive skills which imo is vastly more effective at preventing wipes than 8 rezzes.Heck half the reason some players see this as a must is imo exactly the reason they view it as justifiable due to the fact the are limiting their teams potential to succeed by taking a "worst case scenario" bar into the game.

If your team has 8 rezzes chances are you will often wipe and die more than a team with 2.

Anyway it's pretty off-topic.Maybe start a thread about it if you wish to discuss it in depth and get other opinions?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Another interesting point raised. Sabway would basically die because a full balanced Hero team build would probably end up being better than 3 imbamancers with henchies, but I still can't see how pitifully stupid Hero AI could outshine a team of 8 solid guildies. With the introduction of 7 heroes, it wouldn't eliminate anyone's ability to team up with friends or guildies or even PuG's if you so chose to. I really don't see how this would drastically destroy anyone's gameplay experience by implementing it.

Agreed.

My point is more discussing how it would effect the desirability of H/H over all human teams.GW has always tried to cater to both sides of the coin but I still question what effect this would have on the overall game.Pugging is pretty hard already, again I'm just wondering if turning H/H into even more of an attractive and potentially OP'd option would make pugging, guilds, and basically playing with others even less relevant or desired than it already is especially considering much of the games rewards or motivation to play is now grind based as opposed to team oriented enjoyment.

In a game where people seem to want to do things as fast as possible with as little hassle as possible I'm not sure what effect this would have on GW.

Sure a good guild team will always outshine a Hero team in many ways but in others it's vastly inferior, ease of use, time spent to organize, build synergy etc, etc and with the mob-AI being what it is who exactly needs an 8-man guild team anyway?

I do think H/H changes will have a direct symbiotic effect on the ability to group with non-hero solo teams but I'll admit to assuming here.

/still signed, if reservedly.

Bryant Again · Jul 14, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

These days, I'm finding it harder and harder to keep the 3-hero limit in. You simply cannot beat SY! or UB, so /signed.

Murmel · Jul 15, 2008, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Gave up PUG:s after I did the mission before Abbadon (can't recall the name)
They flamed me the entire mission for not being a ood obby tank... It was my first time obby tanking, it's not that easy imo. And the monks where terrible...

My vote goes for removing the hero limit.

Age · Jul 15, 2008, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

lol.

If your team is dying that much that they need 8 rezzes you are in fact doing it wrong.I've never needed a rez on my bar in 2+ years of playing.None of my friends or guildies use them unless they are backline support, most PuG's I've been in kick or laugh at those outside of support classes that bring them.

There are more effective ways to play than assuming you will all die.8 rezzes is both playing it safe and compensating for a crap team.

As for your monk comment yes.I expect at least one backline to bring support skills including a rez.Thats their job, to support the team, and as such I view a rez fitting this role.I help kill things, they help me kill things by keeping me alive.That's the very definition of support classes and if you don't like it I'd suggest not playing one like I do.As for people expecting rezzes mid-battle I agree they are idiots most of the time but there are obvious exceptions.

Necessity dictates both need and relevance and I just can't see either being applicable to a team with 8 rezzes.It's overkill and your taking away 4-6 offensive/defensive skills which imo is vastly more effective at preventing wipes than 8 rezzes.Heck half the reason some players see this as a must is imo exactly the reason they view it as justifiable due to the fact the are limiting their teams potential to succeed by taking a "worst case scenario" bar into the game.

If your team has 8 rezzes chances are you will often wipe and die more than a team with 2.

Anyway it's pretty off-topic.Maybe start a thread about it if you wish to discuss it in depth and get other opinions?

Then what you are saying is that in 8 vs 8 they don't need to have 6 players with res signets only 2.I havemet players that don't even have res signet they forgot do the quest in pre.I disagree with beginning of your post but the rest is fine.

fireflyry · Jul 15, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Sorry dude but you just confused the heck out of me.

Take it easy.

Molock · Jul 15, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proff

7 Heroes as soon as Nightmare Mode comes out....

/signed for nightmare mode!

I am all for 7 heroes simply because most people just can't cooperate. I am playing this game for my own entertainment not that of an immature ass who laughs as he over-aggroes or draw dicks on the tactical map. All the build possibilities are causing me to drool....

7 heroes will also come in handy when the in-game population begins to decline a lot.

Yawgmoth · Jul 15, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

3 heroes were already too much, it was more than enough to completely kill pugging. (There are exceptions but they're just that - exceptions)
The game was completely different before NF, so much better.

/vote "Disagree - Keep the Hero limit.", going even further would be a catastrophe

GoodApollo1234 · Jul 15, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I was sort of on the fence about this one.

Whether you like it or not, this would probably hurt PUGs more than 3-hero teams already have. If this were to be implemented, no one would ever have ANY good reason to play with other people, and I think it's important to encourage at least a little bit of interaction between players.

With this system, any player would likely be able to finish the game without ever speaking a word to anyone else. That's fine, but I don't think Anet should encourage that type of behavior any more than they already have.

Point: Anet's already made the game 99% solo-able. So, I say they just allow henchmen in elite areas. This way, it'd be POSSIBLE (but still hard, as it should be) to solo these areas.

Note: I don't think increasing the hero limit would make the game more fun for longer than a week or so, after which we'd have nothing left but a single-player RPG with a side order of Q_____Q threads.

Marverick · Jul 15, 2008, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodApollo1234

I was sort of on the fence about this one.

Whether you like it or not, this would probably hurt PUGs more than 3-hero teams already have. If this were to be implemented, no one would ever have ANY good reason to play with other people, and I think it's important to encourage at least a little bit of interaction between players.

With this system, any player would likely be able to finish the game without ever speaking a word to anyone else. That's fine, but I don't think Anet should encourage that type of behavior any more than they already have.

Point: Anet's already made the game 99% solo-able. So, I say they just allow henchmen in elite areas. This way, it'd be POSSIBLE (but still hard, as it should be) to solo these areas.

Note: I don't think increasing the hero limit would make the game more fun for longer than a week or so, after which we'd have nothing left but a single-player RPG with a side order of Q_____Q threads.

Face it, there already is no reason to PuG. And even with 7 heroes, guild + friend groups will always be better.

The only thing 7 heroes does is let people who play solo have a better experience. Now, before you get the wrong conception that a solo player never talks to anyone and just goes by himself... most of us who vanquish and do HM with H/H do it because our guildies/friends are busy, have done it already, or don't want to do it. This is a multiplayer game; everyone has his or her own goals. You can't always find a group for some elusive area.

H/H (and even 7 heroes) will never be more desirable than a friendly group of people whom you know and trust. H/H, and 7 heroes, will always be better than PuGs until ANet does something drastic to the game.

So in reality, allowing 7 heroes does nothing to affect the balance between solo and group play.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoodApollo1234

I was sort of on the fence about this one.

Whether you like it or not, this would probably hurt PUGs more than 3-hero teams already have. If this were to be implemented, no one would ever have ANY good reason to play with other people, and I think it's important to encourage at least a little bit of interaction between players.

With this system, any player would likely be able to finish the game without ever speaking a word to anyone else. That's fine, but I don't think Anet should encourage that type of behavior any more than they already have.

Point: Anet's already made the game 99% solo-able. So, I say they just allow henchmen in elite areas. This way, it'd be POSSIBLE (but still hard, as it should be) to solo these areas.

Note: I don't think increasing the hero limit would make the game more fun for longer than a week or so, after which we'd have nothing left but a single-player RPG with a side order of Q_____Q threads.

Not everyone is going to use heroes because not everyone knows how to use them properly. Heroes are only good as you are. If you're still a little inexperienced, you're going to have a hard time. If you're having a hard time with the heroes, you'll fall back to pugs.

Jetdoc · Jul 15, 2008, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Heroes are only good as you are. If you're still a little inexperienced, you're going to have a hard time.

Actually, heroes are only as good as the builds you can look up on wiki. Unless you are manually controlling your heroes and their actions, they are pretty much are on "auto-pilot", so the skill/experience level of the individual player isn't really relevant.

Three heroes provides for a decent margin for error (given that only 50% of the party is based on builds you can control), while seven heroes provide a very minimal margin for error. I would highly doubt that anyone that knows how to navigate wiki and download skill templates would have anything close to a hard time using seven heroes, especially in normal mode.

Now, if you're so inexperienced that you don't know what the wiki is (or how to use it), that's another story.

BlackSephir · Jul 15, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

3 heroes were already too much, it was more than enough to completely kill pugging. (There are exceptions but they're just that - exceptions)

How many times it has to be said that idiotic pugs killed themselves?

Infectious · Jul 15, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

People still actively try to PuG outside of HA, and HM UW and FoW.
I'm lucky enough to have the ablity to do me + 6 heros and thats better than me + 3 heros + 4 hench.
God knows if I didn't have this I wouldn't still be playing this game.
/signed for "Remove hero limit"

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 15, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

A lot of PUG players I've met think heroes suck and that their "omg leetzorz heling breze + orisn" build is better, so I think that most hardcore PUG players (the ones who always or regularly play in PUGs, and this makes up most of the PUG population, they're also the ones that make PUGs so unpleasant) aren't likely to change to using heroes.

Kanyatta · Jul 16, 2008, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Heroes are only good as you are. If you're still a little inexperienced, you're going to have a hard time.

Even the best player in the game with the 3 greatest Hero bars ever conceived is still going to have problems doing some high-end Vanquishes/HM Missions just because of the pitifully stupid Hero AI.