Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 12, 2008, 08:50 AM // 08:50

The following is an examination on PUG and Hero/Hench gameplay, the elements of each, the advantages and disadvantages, the arguments advocating and denouncing each, and lastly, possible improvements for the benefit of us, the players.

First, a comparison of the disadvantages and advantages of both heroes and humans. When I speak of humans I refer to pickup-group players, not to organized guild teams, which are sometimes as good as heroes.

Heroes (and henchmen)

Advantages:

- they follow orders usually
- run whatever build they are ordered to
- have access to all unlocked skills
- do not act of their own volition
- are silent
- do not trash talk the player
- don't mind when I have real life interruptions and need to step away for a few minutes/hours

Disadvantages:

- an arbitrary and unneeded limit to the number of heroes that can be used
- henchmen have terrible skill bars for the most part, excluding EotN Zho.
- cannot use PvE skills
- can only understand basic commands, though at least they follow them
- ArenaNet appears to have subtly messed with their AI at some point, adding the elements of random aggro stupidity that are normally found only in PUGs

Pickup Group Players

Advantages:

- Supposedly socializing. However I think most people here will agree that when we want to socialize, we will go in a town or talk with our guild/alliance, rather than developing a headache. Note that most PUG players are not the sort of people who one would ideally associate with.

Disadvantages:

- young mental (and often physical) age
- run terrible builds
- trash talk
- ignore instructions
- ignore orders
- aggro
- believe in Tank-Nuker-Healer
- appear to become irritated if I choose to go AFK at any time for any duration
- takes time to form groups, especially in low-population areas
- often have names that either contain spelling errors (why would you not CHECK a PvE character's name for mistakes?) or that I find highly offensive (not swearing or discrimination; that doesn't bother me, but things like "Giggly Snoopuff" or some such; I saw that in RA earlier today and I'd like to know if that constitutes a ban for sheer stupidity)
- unskilled
- did I mention they run terrible builds?
- refuse to use good builds
- insist on having a tank
- You get the idea.

So let's look over the arguments for Pickup Groups and the arguments for Hero/Hench.

Arguments FOR HeroHench:

1) Hero/Hench permits us a flexible gaming schedule; we can start playing when we want, take a break when we want, and stop when we want.
- No comment really, it's a fact.
2) Hero/Hench are on the whole a lot smarter than pickup groups.
- This is for the most part true; despite being AI they do theoretically have higher IQs than the average Guild Wars pickup group player. There are a few gems amongst PUGs, true, but the percentage is rather small.
3) Hero/Hench follow orders.
- This is mostly true; there are annoying occasions when they don't, however. Interestingly that only started within the last few months.

Arguments AGAINST HeroHench:

1) Hero/Hench decreases amount of time spent playing with other players.
- This depends; a lot of us PvP with other players.
- We come to PvE to reduce stress, PUGs are a known cause of stress.
- Some of us don't want to play with other players.
2) Guild Wars is a team game, an MMO.
- You have me there. Oh, wait, you don't, because this is meant to be a game that can be played with or without humans.

Here's a quote from the Prophecies box that pretty much shatters the anti-AI argument right here:

We Let You Play With
Your Friends or Ours
Join with friends or play solo with a
band of skillful henchmen.

Sure, they aren't really very skillful, but it's nice to note that the game is meant to be equally viable with AI.

Last argument AGAINST Hero/Hench:

3) If you don't like playing with people, play a singleplayer game.
A few problems with that.
- The game, as previously mentioned, is fully intended to be a singleplayer game if we want it to.
- Show me a singleplayer game set in the Guild Wars setting, Tyria, with the same areas, skills, classes, story and massive amount of content.
- Show me the offline version of Guild Wars. We play Guild Wars because we enjoy it, not for the community.

Onwards to the discussion of Pickup Groups.

Arguments FOR Pickup Groups:

1) It's fun to play with other people.
- Not the average PUG, it isn't. It's fun with guilds, though.
2) It's good to help other players learn the game.
- Generally speaking, in 8-man PUG groups you are likely to find one person in every three groups who is mature and willing to learn. However, most such intelligent players will have moved on to Hero/Hench in short order.
3) The game is meant to be a team game.
- See earlier comment. It's meant to be team or solo depending on user preference.
4) I miss the old days of Prophecies where everyone played in teams.
- Most of us don't. Team up with the other (insert number here) people who also miss it and play with them. Or play with the PUGs you like so very much.

Arguments AGAINST Pickup Groups:

1) It's stressful dealing with them.
- Known fact.
2) Playing with a PUG rarely leads to a quick and efficient mission.
- Known fact.
3) PUG players are irritating children with psychological issues, mainly related to anger and selfishness.
- Come on, that's not fair, children can't help it. Actually, come to think of it, it is a fair judgement; the game is rated T for Teen, and most PUG players really shouldn't be playing Guild Wars because they're too young and immature. Many are so rude that if they behaved like that face to face with me I'd be hauling them over to a psychiatrist. Or a mental institution.
4) PUGs take ages to form and refuse to run decent builds.
- Ages to form, yes. Refuse to run decent builds, no. Actually, just kidding, I've yet to find a PUG that didn't whine when I explained the problems with their build.
5) PUGs are hostile, inconvenient, and a genuine displeasure to play with.
- I don't dispute that.

So let's compare the basics of each playstyle.

HeroHench: Solitary, mechanical precision, limited hero AI, limited hero number, easier on the casual player.
PUGs: Group, no coordination, insults, headaches, hard on casuals, mental deficiencies, immature.

Well, let's see what we could do for each group.

Pickup Groups:

First, let's note that it is not possible to move HeroHench players over to playing with PUGs. All the encouragement in the world will not persuade us to the present group of people, and ArenaNet has no method of actually forcing us to play with them; all they can force us to do is leave the game.

So it needs to be something that adjusts the current state of PUGs.

Actually, I think that barring an in-depth psychiatric evaluation and many therapy sessions, PUGs are going to remain shunned by the skilled players of the game. Nothing that can be done. There is also no real adjustment PUGs need besides more players, and the only way that's happening is more people joining the game because existing H/H players are staying H/H. So leave PUGs as they are.

HeroHench:

Hero/Hench is already done solo, sometimes duo, so there's no need to "draw PUGs over to H/H;" indeed the few that lose the FDS and go over to H/H will do so of their own volition.

Can H/H be improved? Absolutely. There is a single large problem with it, and I think it's a problem that could be solved really easily.

Note that Henchmen are difficult to control, cannot be used in elite areas, and mostly have bad builds.

Heroes are limited at 3. I think a lot of you can guess where I'm going with this.

There is no actual reason to limit heroes to 3. It won't imbalance gameplay since Ursan already killed PvE.

What's the worst about it? Flags would need a new GUI by the compass? Most of us would take heroes without the extra flags, or with a very very simple one to add the other flags. How hard can it be, anyways?

Programming issues? I think that if ArenaNet had time to make things like Ursan Blessing and the Zaishen Title Track, they have time to do this.

Discouraging PUG gameplay? As I went over earlier, PUGs damage themselves more than heroes ever will.

The only reason to limit heroes is to limit fun for players. The objective of a game is to have fun, so is it not reasonable to remove this limit and let us use 7 heroes? (11 in Urgoz + Deep).

I propose that the number of heroes usable be increased to the group maximum of the player's area. Additionally I propose that heroes be permitted to use PvE-Only skills. Furthermore I humbly request ArenaNet to consider the option of using full AI teams in Guild Wars 2 for such events as raiding.

Please state below if you agree and add you reasons why if possible; even if it's as simple as, "Because I like having fun."

If you should happen to wish us ill and prevent the enhancement of our Guild Wars experience, you may say so below - but if you do, give a valid and coherent reason as to how and why our full hero teams that you will never meet will somehow inconvenience you.

Posts that are meaningless, such as random insults with no backing, and that contribute nothing to the discussion, are not appreciated and are considered unwelcome spam.

(Personal note - I hate when the rules change and it's completely unnoticeable.)

Tyla · Jul 12, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

I agree.

In my opinion, heroes didn't kill PuGs, but PuGs killed PuGs. Heroes more or less "saved" people. Those who used henchmen pre-hero days will go on with H/H. Those who hated PuGs because of the "against" reasons listed would have done the same. Those who are using them currently will still do so. Those who wish to PuG PuG.

bhavv · Jul 12, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Epic thread / poll.

Just ignore the nubs that complain about QQers, they are just QQing themselves.

Rick Thene · Jul 12, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Agreed.

The only reason Hero/Hench is called that is because we can't use 5/7/11 Heroes. On a whole, I think something like this would reduce the amount of noobish PUGs and general frustration that goes with them, but still allow people to roll with guildies when they wanted to play co-op. There's also the fact that co-op isn't very co-op when everyone in the PUG has skillbars that don't synergise.

Plus it's just nice to not have to warn everyone you have to go to the toilet.

MithranArkanere · Jul 12, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

I always thought that they would never do this... but I read something about it in the wiki.... anyways, I doubt it happening until GW2 goes out and becomes harder to find people to join with.

Aldric · Jul 12, 2008, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Very good post .

Anet stop fecking around with useless crap like moneypit PvE emotes and gimme 7 controllable hero's.

RiKio · Jul 12, 2008, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Agree.

It would make Vanquishing more easy, but I HATE THE AVERAGE PVER.

With this update, my dreams of the perfect PvE group will be fullfilled.

fireflyry · Jul 12, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Interesting topic and well written OP.

Personally it's simple and I think you need one more option:

Guild/friend teams:The basis of my GW time.Fun, efficient and uber.

H/H Hero:When I want to attain a goal easily and without hassle when friends or guildies are offline excluding high-end.

PuG:Mainly high-end when Guildies or friends are offline, usually a hassle.Otherwise low-end missions when I'm bored to help others.

In terms of the poll I'm in two minds.

/signed as it would make the game easier.

/unsigned as a large potion the social aspect would be right out the window.

oliverrr1989 · Jul 12, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

I don't like PUG monks...
or wammos
or sins
or rangers
or necros
or ursans
:'(
I wanna be able to do high end stuff whenever I feel like it with a group of seven clever AI who will run what I want and do as I ask

Shadowhaze · Jul 12, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

That would be very nice.

Azza · Jul 12, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

/agreed

i hated the fact my Guildie could hero and henchie everything in HM (Except eternal grove/Thunderhead keep and Dzagonur Bastion, Needed me for them)

and i needed his help, plus if the ability to have unlimited Heroes would be great for the areas u can not take henchmen-The Deep, Urgozs Warren, Domain of Anguish, Underworld, FoW.

oh and trying to PuG in NM and suceed is a head ache, i'd never try and pug HM urgh.

but then if people like my guildie had a whole party of heroes he'd be unstoppable and would make the game to easy for him.

and yes Henchmen skills/AI do suck, my monk will be drained of energy while healer henchmen is slowly healing like a PuG >

Kanyatta · Jul 12, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

I really see no reason to limit the number of heroes. Sure, people want me to "socialize" and play with others (I'm playing a video game, isn't that sort of a non-social activity anyway?). Generally, the PUGs you find at a random outpost/mission are not smart, have bad builds, talk shit about useless stuff, all of the above, etc.

Who knows, they might sell a few copies of NF because of this?

Dr.Jones · Jul 12, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

i am glad some one has pointed out the pros and cons. this is something i would like to seeing as i have so many heros that i would love to use instead of the hences. i would love to see 3 necros and 3 eles but also with this update i would love to see 5 new heros added ie the ones that only have 2 right now (sin para mesmer rit derv) i think these guys could be added in the game at different points you could also make it so like the bmp rewards you a hero if you do everything in it. or have another kurzick derv. just that sort of thing or like a ghost hero that you get once you ascend that is a para.

Don Doggy · Jul 12, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

/signed
How many people actually PUG now we all use H/H so why not just give us 7 hero slots?

Elder III · Jul 12, 2008, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I voted yes (not without some thought however) - here's why:

1) I tend to do H/H nearly always anyways, so this would make it much easier for me in HM especially.... although NM would perhaps become "tooooo" easy now?

2) I do enjoy some time with friends or guilds (dungeon or questing) now and again, and this would not harm or change that one bit - or would it???

* to answer my above question - I would propose that the Hero limit in Elite Areas be left the same. That would mean that one would not be able to be a complete Lone Wolf throughout the entire game. To receive the greater rewards that are found in those areas, one must still seek out the assistance of others. It basically would mean that Guilds would still have a viable PVE function, other than an ingame chat room.

*

Solas · Jul 12, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

We Let You Play With
Your Friends or Ours
Join with friends or play solo with a
band of skillful henchmen.

The vast maority of the game can be Hero and henched inc. HM
The Henchman monks do grand.
Plus with PvE skills its not that hard even in HM.

Quote:

If you should happen to wish us ill and prevent the enhancement of our Guild Wars experience, you may say so below - but if you do, give a valid and coherent reason as to how and why our full hero teams that you will never meet will somehow inconvenience you.

They stated before i think that 7 hero parties wont work with current mechanics,
It seems pretty overpowered aswell thats not including the PVE equipable skillbar.

As for it not directly effecting them and never seeing them i could saw the exact same thing for a magical 1-hit kill everything skill, (yes its extreme but still)

Why complain when you'll never see me using it, You can play normally i'll and i'll use this way.

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 12, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

The vast maority of the game can be Hero and henched inc. HM
The Henchman monks do grand.
Plus with PvE skills its not that hard even in HM.

Henchmen cannot be taken into elite areas and their performance is inferior to a good hero build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

They stated before i think that 7 hero parties wont work with current mechanics,
It seems pretty overpowered aswell thats not including the PVE equipable skillbar.

Overpowered? Compared to a full guild team carrying, say, an Imbagon, a Dslash Warrior, Sabway, and other existing overpowered abilities? I think not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talach_Ninneed

As for it not directly effecting them and never seeing them i could saw the exact same thing for a magical 1-hit kill everything skill, (yes its extreme but still)
Why complain when you'll never see me using it, You can play normally i'll and i'll use this way.

It's extreme and hardly related. You're suggesting an overpowered game-winner, I'm suggesting a change that will enhance our experience and won't even be as overpowered as Ursan Blessing. Moreover a coordinated guild team is already far more powerful than AI ever will be, so I suppose your opinion is that players shouldn't play with fellow guild members?

vandevere · Jul 12, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I voted for.

I enjoy my heroes very much; and I don't always have the time to play. when I do, it's often very hard to get into a team,and I don't mind Micro-managing my Heroes. Please! Let me take all of my Heroes when I go out on Quests and Missions!

Vandevere

Kinn · Jul 12, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

OP, I know you've tried to pre-empt the "if you hate it so much, just play some other single player game" response, but seriously, Guild Wars is primarily about multiplayer, with an optional single player aspect. The single player option was never meant to offer the same benefits and power as partying with other people. Nor should it.

To allow 7 heroes all with PvE skills would utterly kill any reason at all to group with other people in 95% of the game. Maybe that's what you'd like, but it isn't going to happen.

Jetdoc · Jul 12, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

I'm sorry, but how is this thread any different than the 50+ page "allow 7 heroes" thread in Riverside? Why feel the need to create a new thread instead of adding onto the fully hashed out arguments in that thread?

Seeing that almost every possible angle regarding the PuG versus Hero/Henchmen debate and the possible positive and negative effects regarding seven heroes has been fully explained and debated there, I don't see the need to debate it again here. Your post is nicely presented, but definitely does not accurately reflect even HALF of the arguments regarding this topic.

I encourage anyone reading this topic to visit that thread (located here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ghlight=heroes )...you'll quickly gain some insight into both the people that are pro and against this issue. In the least you'll get much more information than this decidedly one-sided position put forth by Zahr (who was coincidentally an active participant in that thread...).