Curse

zelgadissan · Sep 18, 2008, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Am I the only one who saw the title of the thread and hoped for Lightsabers?

Anyway, I'll hit this point by point by all the headings.

Prophecies Henchmen - I like the idea in general of a rework, but don't forget that those skills encompass all the games. Henchies need to have skillbars that can be made entirely in the game that you're in IMO - EotN obvious exception. I know you said you're reworking that, so I'll wait for a final judgment.

Factions - agreed on both counts. Maybe people would actually play challenge missions.

Nightfall - agreed. Maybe people would actually play challenge missions.

Urgoz - agreed on adding Celestials - very, very disagreed on the endchest. These things can be speedrun in like 30 minutes, you know.

Deep - read above.

Domain of Anguish - I'll agree on all counts here if for no reason other than to bring people back to the DoA. Not sure it's the best approach, but I'll take it.

Eye of the North Dungeons - completely disagreed. I could accept maybe double or triple the dungeon rewards to help in the grind reduction but 5x just seems ridiculous. Drops are fine as is, it's not like most dungeons are even remotely hard.

Vanquishing - 20 times? Seriously? 10 maybe, 20 is insane.

Traders - unnecessary.

Titles - 100% agreed, don't understand why this isn't account based as is. It really makes me frown upon playing other characters in HM.

Hall of Monuments - agreed on display orders - a simple dropdown menu would have sufficed, but they wouldn't do that. Also agreed for tormented weapons, but we know that's coming. End game greens and BMP weapons are just too easy to get to make them addable. Maybe the gold versions of the endgame greens, like Deldrimor weapons. I do think you should get another green weapon after beating it in HM, which is another reason why end game greens should not be allowed in the HoM. As for statues, /don't care.

All in all it could use some work but not too bad.

Shasgaliel · Sep 18, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I liked most of the ideas posted by you and by Azazel and I agree with his remarks.

My remarks:
1. Deep should reward jadeite shards not the amber.
2. I would not increase number of golds obtained from end chests in soloable dungeons. Actually Rragars is one of them. If yes then I would make them not soloable.
3. Maybe also a Kurzick/Luxon blessing in Urgoz/Deep?
4. Challenge missions in cantha could obtain some special drops as well. Maybe armor for MOX?

House Silvermoon · Sep 18, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

I liked most of the ideas posted by you and by Azazel and I agree with his remarks.

My remarks:
1. Deep should reward jadeite shards not the amber.
2. I would not increase number of golds obtained from end chests in soloable dungeons. Actually Rragars is one of them. If yes then I would make them not soloable.
3. Maybe also a Kurzick/Luxon blessing in Urgoz/Deep?
4. Challenge missions in cantha could obtain some special drops as well. Maybe armor for MOX?

1. lol sry i didnt notice that i had amber set for the deep i'll change that.
2. ah yea i had the same feeling but maybe the problem is that the dungeon was broken by the 600 smite team. but yea i'll nerf their drops esp CoF.
3. hmm is there a need for that when u get such a nice reward at the end faction wise?
4. hmm thats up to the devs maybe canthan type hero armor would be smexy but i dont want to task them with too much all at once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

Am I the only one who saw the title of the thread and hoped for Lightsabers?

Anyway, I'll hit this point by point by all the headings.

Prophecies Henchmen - I like the idea in general of a rework, but don't forget that those skills encompass all the games. Henchies need to have skillbars that can be made entirely in the game that you're in IMO - EotN obvious exception. I know you said you're reworking that, so I'll wait for a final judgment.

Urgoz - agreed on adding Celestials - very, very disagreed on the endchest. These things can be speedrun in like 30 minutes, you know.

Deep - read above.

Eye of the North Dungeons - completely disagreed. I could accept maybe double or triple the dungeon rewards to help in the grind reduction but 5x just seems ridiculous. Drops are fine as is, it's not like most dungeons are even remotely hard.

Vanquishing - 20 times? Seriously? 10 maybe, 20 is insane.

Traders - unnecessary.

Hall of Monuments - agreed on display orders - a simple dropdown menu would have sufficed, but they wouldn't do that. Also agreed for tormented weapons, but we know that's coming. End game greens and BMP weapons are just too easy to get to make them addable. Maybe the gold versions of the endgame greens, like Deldrimor weapons. I do think you should get another green weapon after beating it in HM, which is another reason why end game greens should not be allowed in the HoM. As for statues, /don't care.

1. keep henches at campaign only bars huh. that would reduce their effectiveness esp with heros out now. heros > henches because they can run anything. thats my justification for the use of all skills. i might change them to campaign specific if a lot of people disagree with my justification.

2. yea maybe i'll nerf the deep and urgoz slighty but i did it because they usually take longer then dungeons, uw, fow, and slavers which have better overall drops >.<

3. ok i can reduce the rep reward a bit and i'll change a few drop rates.

4. ok 20 times doesnt sound so bad to me, i kno cause i went thru the pain of legendary vanquisher but i'll move it to 15 times.

5. the mods trader will be most useful for people. if pvp chars can get any modded weapons they need y does the pve guy have to struggle to find a seller of mods. cause lord knows if any one has 40/40 wand stuff cause i havent seen them.

6. yea i'll keep the extra key ideas and i'll change it to gold versions only.

House Silvermoon · Sep 18, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

i have to go to skool but i'll try and get Tai, Taya and Danika up later. then after that nf and eotn henches.

sixofone · Sep 18, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

I wonder - would it be possible to add "new content" that only kicks in when you've beaten a particular region? That way, there's a replay that's not just doing the same thing over and over.

When you defeat Shiro/the Lich/whatever, it unlocks quests, rewards, regions, etc., that weren't available before? I guess that kind of exists already - the Titan Quests, the Imperial outpost, and so on. But, to sort of blend a more persistent feel to the game - a defeated super-boss: increases in difficulty for each defeat, giving more xp and gold/drops and so on? It would have to be based on the team leader, I suppose, as the system would have no way to buff Shiro for 1 person while keeping him at the initial level of challenge for a party member who is on their first go round.

Don't know - just throwing out ideas...

House Silvermoon · Sep 18, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixofone

I wonder - would it be possible to add "new content" that only kicks in when you've beaten a particular region? That way, there's a replay that's not just doing the same thing over and over.

When you defeat Shiro/the Lich/whatever, it unlocks quests, rewards, regions, etc., that weren't available before? I guess that kind of exists already - the Titan Quests, the Imperial outpost, and so on. But, to sort of blend a more persistent feel to the game - a defeated super-boss: increases in difficulty for each defeat, giving more xp and gold/drops and so on? It would have to be based on the team leader, I suppose, as the system would have no way to buff Shiro for 1 person while keeping him at the initial level of challenge for a party member who is on their first go round.

Don't know - just throwing out ideas...

isnt that sorta what hard mode is right now? u beat the game alrdy so now we buffed everything so u can go thru it again?

its a nice idea but i cant see this happening.

A11Eur0 · Sep 18, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

HoM displays are not random, they're actually structured in order of title/armor/whatnot. I've noticed that all 5 EOTN titles are together, same with cartography, guardian, elite area, and supplemental titles. I do wish we could order them ourselves though so I can display the ones I want from different "sections".

Konig Des Todes · Sep 18, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

3. hmm is there a need for that when u get such a nice reward at the end faction wise?
4. hmm thats up to the devs maybe canthan type hero armor would be smexy but i dont want to task them with too much all at once.

3. There is a need. Over 1 million faction is annoying. Adding the blessing for Urgoz/Deep would make it MUCH easier. I would also suggest adding faction reward for the Kurzick/Luxon missions *if there isn't one* (i.e. Arborstone, Seabed, Eternal Grove and Ghayla Hatchery)

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

keep henches at campaign only bars huh. that would reduce their effectiveness esp with heros out now. heros > henches because they can run anything. thats my justification for the use of all skills. i might change them to campaign specific if a lot of people disagree with my justification.

Until ANet puts in no hero limit, improving the henchmen in any way is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

isnt that sorta what hard mode is right now? u beat the game alrdy so now we buffed everything so u can go thru it again?

its a nice idea but i cant see this happening.

No, it's not what HM is right now. HM is the same thing but harder*mind you, it's availible after beating the game once per account, not per character*. What sixofone said was to add new quests and missions to do after beating the game (like how you can only get to DoA and Slavers' Exile and the Titan quests after beating the games). I suggest adding new quests that are Hard Mode Only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

HoM displays are not random, they're actually structured in order of title/armor/whatnot. I've noticed that all 5 EOTN titles are together, same with cartography, guardian, elite area, and supplemental titles. I do wish we could order them ourselves though so I can display the ones I want from different "sections".

Eh, random was used for ease. There is an order, but no one can ever get what they want next to each other, especially for heroes.

Edit: I'm going to make some builds for the henchmen that will be one campaign only. Devona and co. will be an exception because they can go to multiple campaigns (although, proph will have proph only, fact will have proph + fact, nf will have all 3).

House Silvermoon · Sep 18, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

3. There is a need. Over 1 million faction is annoying. Adding the blessing for Urgoz/Deep would make it MUCH easier. I would also suggest adding faction reward for the Kurzick/Luxon missions *if there isn't one* (i.e. Arborstone, Seabed, Eternal Grove and Ghayla Hatchery)

Eh, random was used for ease. There is an order, but no one can ever get what they want next to each other, especially for heroes.

Edit: I'm going to make some builds for the henchmen that will be one campaign only. Devona and co. will be an exception because they can go to multiple campaigns (although, proph will have proph only, fact will have proph + fact, nf will have all 3).

i agree with the idea of a blessing so i scaled back the reward and added a blessing.

yea random was used for ease. annoying that u cant should stuff in the order u want to.

hmm idk i feel we should treat the henches like players and give them worthy skill bars. i am almost going to add a section bout things to improve about hero and hench behavior as well as skills that heros use poorly so we can get changes made to them.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 18, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

hmm idk i feel we should treat the henches like players and give them worthy skill bars. i am almost going to add a section bout things to improve about hero and hench behavior as well as skills that heros use poorly so we can get changes made to them.

Well, you cannot expect henchmen to be at a player level. Yes, they are meant to be at player level, but even with grand builds, they suck. And you cannot just simply ask for AI improvements, as we have been getting them (with bugs sadly, but they get fixed). AI is a constant thing ANet looks at.

I have Prophecies Henchmen done, will get to Factions soon. *NOTE!: Elites are only in the builds from Shiverpeaks on*

[Orion/Cynn;OgBCoMzgv/mLwFjMu0C]

[Claude/Eve;OABDQqtnC+1Wmlt3YPKA]

[Dunham;OQBDAasjCvwyKTkBRoIA]

[Alesia/Mhenlo;OwAS0YIHaMjecitEkSUn]

[Lina;OwAS8YIH38lrcmFMg1Tm]

[Reyna;OgATcXsm1wys+xHe2F33CAA]

[Stefan;OQATEV6W1wvAGp/tncNACAA]

[Little Thom;OQATEV5W1IoS1qQdtXNACAA]

[Devona;OQATE15W1Ysg1rHNvcNACAA]

zelgadissan · Sep 18, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

^ Very awesome bars - not amazing but mostly effective, which is pretty much how I always thought henchies should be.

I do think at least either Stefan or Little Thom needs Wild Blow though, or else I don't see many Prophecies-only players beating Glint with just henchies. Just my two cents.

Hyper Cutter · Sep 18, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

is adding an end chest for every quest going to make sorrows furnace nice or something?

Yes. Because the Sorrow's Furnace rewards suck. REALLY suck (just experience? At a time we don't really need that anymore? Terrible. The Titan quests have the exact same problem, actually.)

Konig Des Todes · Sep 18, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

^ Very awesome bars - not amazing but mostly effective, which is pretty much how I always thought henchies should be.

I do think at least either Stefan or Little Thom needs Wild Blow though, or else I don't see many Prophecies-only players beating Glint with just henchies. Just my two cents.

Yes, you're right. I added Wild Blow to Little Thom's build. I'm going to work on Factions Henchmen now.

House Silvermoon · Sep 18, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

Yes. Because the Sorrow's Furnace rewards suck. REALLY suck (just experience? At a time we don't really need that anymore? Terrible. The Titan quests have the exact same problem, actually.)

see we could add an end chest but then wut to put in the end chest? nothing good drops there unless we gonna make stone summit and titan weapons.

and btw how u do the builds like that.

no offense but some of the bars are kinda bad. even for proph only skills. u have a prot monk with 2 15e skills, 2 10e skills, and rebirth (which they will use in the middle of a fight). just leave the bars to me ok and save ur posting space for other suggestions.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 18, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by House Silvermoon

no offense but some of the bars are kinda bad. even for proph only skills. u have a prot monk with 2 15e skills, 2 10e skills, and rebirth (which they will use in the middle of a fight). just leave the bars to me ok and save ur posting space for other suggestions.

I am only using skills of which I have unlocked, so there will be room for improvement, especially on monks and mesmers. However, comparing yours to mine, I think mine are overall better (frenzy? come on!). And as for how to put the builds like that, press quote and you'll see.

Anyways, here are my Faction Henchmen suggestions.

[Jamie/Danika;OwAS0YIPex7GY0i896igE0I]

[Karl/Gita;OwAS8YIPVEomWcmMGDI1DZC]

[Rangers;OgATcXsm1xy4KVNUtZTxx3IAAA]

[Talon/Lukas/Eli;OQATEV6W1xvAYIfTN7IXJAIAAA]

[Devona;OQATE15W1xNOWkaxxxHXJAIAAA]

[Cynn/Argo;OgBDkqq8OpOdRPEWwDLGIDaB]

[Headmaster Vhang/Kai Ying;OgBDg6q8KTz6kylj3ANhDtA]

[Assassins;OwBj0tf44O0O/Xz7gRAlguMBAA]

[Ritualists;OACjEuiMpNlTv5y8y54kmpzLGA]

[Mesmers;OQBDAqsjOcANQIUwlBICoABA]

[Brutus/Eve;OABCQsxzMrNkJqh2wh2jQAA]

[Sheena/Su;OABDUqp3KAdSf68sdgG+rAA]

Now for Nightfall henchmen...

Konig Des Todes · Sep 19, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

And now for Nightfall Henchmen....

[Mhenlo;OwAS0YITkE0VNg3NTfWExVvT]

[Cynn;OgBCoMzjugu10GrFDkBugWA]

[Herta;OgBCkMzDX1ruKgFIjvaqgWA]

[Devona;OQASE5JPjFwigNoYY5r/VBA]

[Eve;OABCY8xjUtMYH+EO1dXVVAA]

[Rangers;OgATcXsm1xyobVN46ZTxx3IAAA]

[Sologon;OQCjUmmJKPAZFcPuCfitwtb5NA]

[Odurra;OQBDAqsjOcANARNPnBICoABA]

[Gehraz;OgCikys8AghuCY773dcXeFAA]

[Kihm;OwAS8YIPb6WyddmcpDI1DZC]

[Timera;OQATEV6W15wCYM1G21CXJAIAAA]

House Silvermoon · Sep 19, 2008, 01:06 AM // 01:06

u dont understand how to use frenzy. its the best ias in the game next to flail. a lot of the skills u put on the bars are unnecessay like shield bash, watch yourself, heal sig, and infuse lol. dont need infuse in pve.

at second look some look totally random. cynn and argos bars dont even have attunes. anyway im not here to discuss the bars but many other improvements that can be made to the game to spur life and entertainment.

Trenixz · Sep 19, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

In defense of Azazel's builds, for a hench to use it well it should be really simple. For example, while Frenzy might be awesome in PvP when used properly and with a cancel stance, i doubt that a hench will do anything but keep it up 24/7 and get killed really quick.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 19, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Frenzy makes you take double damage, you need high defense if you plan on using it, which henchmen usually do not have. Heal sig is needed as a self-heal for the warriors, Watch Yourself is for party wide armor addition, shield bash is a temp defense (there are better ones but when fighting melee, kd can help). Infuse I put because of the high heal (and another heal can be used afterwards if needed).

There really aren't any skills that are random, Cynn and Argo don't have attunes because there wasn't enough space, if it was 10 instead of 8, I would have put some attunements.

I tried to make some builds complementary to each other as well.

Like I said above, these are only out of the skills I have unlocked, so of course there will be room for improvement.

These are just suggestions to set as a base really.

draxynnic · Sep 19, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

This thread has got me thinking about henchmen improvements as well. It'll take me a few days before I have time to actually put some together, but one thing I am thinking is that Devona & co should probably have all core skills and be the same throughout the three campaigns - if it's possible to do so while being viable.

That said, some comments on what Azazel's done:

Prophecies:
Orion/Cynn: I'd probably do something completely different with these two than you've done in the first place, but the reason I generally don't use Prophecies eles (and Cynn in other campaigns) is because I don't trust them to use Mind Burn efficiently without getting mega-exhausted. (That said, I haven't tried giving similar bars to a hero, and one can't track henchmen energy to see just how bad they're doing...) I'd be inclined to give them Elemental Attunement instead. I'd also be inclined to strip out either Meteor Shower or Firestorm (Prophecies-build henchmen are criticised enough for post-battle fireworks as it is) and Immolate for Fireball and a ressig.

I was about to comment on Stefan and Battle Rage until I thought to see if the latter had been updated.

Factions:
Talon and Eli are available simultaneously in Luxon areas, so some differences would be worthwhile.

BHA is Daeman's thing, but I'd be inclined to give it to Zho as well (provides some continuity with Zho's EOTN build). If Aidan and Aurora used Barrage, this would give most outposts on the Canthan mainland a choice between a barrage ranger or a BHA ranger. This would probably make most players happy.

Even if it's just the humble Meteor, Argo should never be without the ability to cause flaming rocks to fall from the sky. Also, I have a pathological dislike of the idea of trusting AI elementalists with PBAOE.

Not only are Headmaster Vhang and Kai Ying usually in the same districts (in fact, I don't think Vhang ever appears without Kai Ying also being present, although I may be wrong), but Kai Ying is currently one of the better Factions henchmen... at least IMO. I'd be inclined to simply give Kai Ying an improved version of his current build.

Assassins/Ritualists: Some areas have two of each. It would be nice if they weren't copies of each other, especially since the current Ritualist hench build isn't really compatible with being doubled.

Mesmers: Erys Vasburg once had almost cult status of being a godly interruptor. His build is good (enough) and has eight skills already. Leave it alone...

To be honest, the Illusion henchmen aren't bad either.

Again, Brutus and Eve usually share outposts (wherever you find Brutus you'll find Eve) so some build distinction between them might be good.

Nightfall:
I actually kinda like Sogolon with his current build, although it can certainly stand some improvement. That's not to say that yours is bad, but... *shrug*

Odurra comes pretty close to being a worthy henchman even without an elite. AOE interrupts are good to have on your side. I'd be inclined to give her the new VoR or Tease as an elite, find an appropriate final skill to add in, and call her done. (Also, Signet of Clumsiness with no Illusion investment? Tsk.

)

Gehraz is in a similar boat, though not so much as Odurra - he doesn't have a cookie-cutter build, but it seems to work well enough. I'd probably be inclined to just add Reaper's to it and call it a day.