Curse

Kanyatta · Feb 08, 2008, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The problem with the market is speed.

This is where I stopped reading, tbh.

Just because you wait 20 minutes less to get something, because it's infinitely more common, doesn't make the price drop 500%~.

Basically, the market was fine when weapons were in their proper price ranges, now that they're stupidly cheap, PvE has really cheapened.

Yawgmoth · Feb 08, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

What's this "close to no effort" shit? Unless Anet changes the drop rates, rare skins will drop at the same rate they always did. You still have to try to get a rare skin, or at least get lucky.

When I say "close to no effort" I mean it. There are many rare high end items which are worth good money but the skin itself isn't rare at all! Look at Magmas Shield! They're High End, 100k+ee worth, but if inscribables started to drop in Tyria anyone would be able to get one by just doing a couple chest runs in Hell's Precipice. From 100k+ee to 5k max, titan farmers would sell them in packs of 7... Same goes to FoW/UW skins, Celestials, Zodiacs, Mursaats...
From High-End to just more common cheap crap.

And inscriptions are NOT core, they belong only to specific areas in the game, or to high-end chests in others. Best example FoW and UW, definately Core areas, thankfully their drop values are well protected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It was not inscriptions.
The problem with the market is speed.

With the old system drops where so bad that only the more rare would worth of being sold.

Since the current dop system is better, but the selling system is still slow, it is not worth spend 2 hours to sell something 10..25k worth.

It's not inscriptions what is wrong. The inscriptions are just fine. We just need something along the lines of the Xunlai Market gossip.

Nononono it's not about any market speed, if you would eliminate current speed issues the real deeper problem would become more clear to everyone - The Problem of the massive overabundance of perfect goods and close to zero demand for them.
Easier trading won't save a dead economy, it can only save players' time.

Just imagine - if they now added an (impossible) absolutely perfect centralized trading engine with zero technical limitations, the truth would reveal itself to unbelievers.
Imagine listing any number of items, no listing cost, no storage limits for items on sale, instant sales at b/o prices and an omnipotent searching engine... and perfect competition between the sellers. You couldn't complain about market being any slow then. Now add to this the current rates at which inherently perfect (inscribable) drops are generated - think of all the people putting everything which is not 'flawed' for sale and keep adding new stuff at the rates they farm it. Imagine, you look at the items being sold and see 5000 gold max req.9 inscribable fire wands and see all the prices all sellers traders set for them, and can compare. Even if first 1000 cheapest ones would sell quickly, the next 1000 would get farmed in days or even hours. The market would get saturated in no time.
Nobody would buy that many things, sellers would have to reduce the prices to minimum possible values to get an edge over thousands of others selling the very same thing. Then they would realise they sell things to people for close to what the merch pays...
...this brings us to today's GW economy, where huge amounts of inherently perfect (inscribable) golds which are just too common go straight to the merchant.

There were 3 big Anet's mistakes that caused this terrible situation:

(1). Easily overfarmable Greens - it started with Factions Greens - possible to be 'produced' in large quantities by solo farming easily accessible bosses. Perfection accessible too easily.

(2). The whole inscription system - imho the worst thing that has happened to PvE ever. While some improvements, especially for casters would be an improvement then, they did it in one of the worst ways imaginable. Making almost every single common drop be inherently perfect (not flawed - can be made perfect by just modding) was a huge mistake. This caused perfect stuff to be so common it's on the edge of being merchant food. It separated mods from skins, and made it so that even item rarity (color) lost it's significance., with the blues being just as good as golds.

(3). Very high Hard Mode gold item drop rates + loot scaling not affecting them = massive overfarm. This would be dangerous even if inscription crap was never introduced to the game (look at tyrian Dead Bows - req.9 15^50 close to worthless thanks to HM overfarm) but combined with them it's a total and complete disaster.
Thankfully there are large areas in the game (Factions/Prophecies/UW/FoW) and their rare item skins are still in a way protected from the devastating combined effect of (2). + (3). - their inscribable versions are found only as rare (unfarmable) special rewards, which makes them well worthy rewards, and most of their HM overfarmed copies are inherently imperfect. Their value is maintained and they make great drops when found perfect and worthy rewards for the high-end reward chests as guaranteed perfects.

And in the first place PvE never needed perfect weapons, before first greens and locked chests appeared people were happy to find *any* gold item, and just played and enjoyed the game. And the best part is nobody complained!

R.Shayne · Feb 08, 2008, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

(1). Easily overfarmable Greens - it started with Factions Greens - possible to be 'produced' in large quantities by solo farming easily accessible bosses. Perfection accessible too easily.

(2). The whole inscription system - imho the worst thing that has happened to PvE ever. While some improvements, especially for casters would be an improvement then, they did it in one of the worst ways imaginable. Making almost every single common drop be inherently perfect (not flawed - can be made perfect by just modding) was a huge mistake. This caused perfect stuff to be so common it's on the edge of being merchant food. It separated mods from skins, and made it so that even item rarity (color) lost it's significance., with the blues being just as good as golds.

(3). Very high Hard Mode gold item drop rates + loot scaling not affecting them = massive overfarm. This would be dangerous even if inscription crap was never introduced to the game (look at tyrian Dead Bows - req.9 15^50 close to worthless thanks to HM overfarm) but combined with them it's a total and complete disaster.
Thankfully there are large areas in the game (Factions/Prophecies/UW/FoW) and their rare item skins are still in a way protected from the devastating combined effect of (2). + (3). - their inscribable versions are found only as rare (unfarmable) special rewards, which makes them well worthy rewards, and most of their HM overfarmed copies are inherently imperfect. Their value is maintained and they make great drops when found perfect and worthy rewards for the high-end reward chests as guaranteed perfects.

And in the first place PvE never needed perfect weapons, before first greens and locked chests appeared people were happy to find *any* gold item, and just played and enjoyed the game. And the best part is nobody complained!

1. Supply and demand determines market price, always have and always will. Now look around, they are fewer people playing guild wars then say two years ago when the game was new. The hardcore are still here but the rest have moved on thus your market has decreased.

2. I am not buying less than perfect, never have, even when the game was new. I also admit that I buy things when I want them but I would rather find them myself. It is just to satisfying to see a perfect gold drop.

3. Collectors have always offered perfect common "BLUE" weapons so perfect blues have been in the game the whole time.

3. ANET has never fully supported the economy. If they had they would have implemented a better trading system when the game was first released.
4. Greens were introduced to drive the market down on rare perfect gold items and did a great job. I don’t think ANET ever intended for anything to be worth more than 100k because that’s the limit on the amount of gold that can be placed in the trade window.
The market may improve after the release of GW2 because it will likely pull the farmers and bots away from guild wars thus decreasing the supply but it will also further reduce the number of players and market demand.

A11Eur0 · Feb 08, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45

At least make shields moddable, if not inscribable.

Horus · Feb 08, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

why dont they add non insc weps to all campaingns? lol

leave it as it is

Uber Mass · Feb 08, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

tho id love to see more inscribable weapons i would still say no... its good as it is

AshenX · Feb 08, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

This is where I stopped reading, tbh.

Just because you wait 20 minutes less to get something, because it's infinitely more common, doesn't make the price drop 500%~.

Basically, the market was fine when weapons were in their proper price ranges, now that they're stupidly cheap, PvE has really cheapened.

No offense intended but a 100% drop in price would mean that the item was free (100k -100k = 0) a 500% drop would essentially mean that the seller was paying the buyer to take the item.

System_Crush · Feb 08, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

No offense intended but a 100% drop in price would mean that the item was free (100k -100k = 0) a 500% drop would essentially mean that the seller was paying the buyer to take the item.

Logically a 100% price reduction you can't sell your items anymore, so you will shopfood them instead of selling them to players.

Partizanovac · Feb 08, 2008, 01:31 PM // 13:31

QUOTE =everything above me= QUOTE

/not signed

MithranArkanere · Feb 10, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

And in the first place PvE never needed perfect weapons, before first greens and locked chests appeared people were happy to find *any* gold item, and just played and enjoyed the game. And the best part is nobody complained!

Nobody? I always complained about armors and weapons not fully being moddable, and make suggestions in some forums so they made a way to mod them.

Suggestions like mine ended up into the Insignia and the Inscriptions.

People complained and they made a change. Now only those that liked to spend 30 minutes to sell one single item (Yargh, who the hell would wait SO much!) are the ones that don't like them. Because takes more time to sell and item that the gol you get farming for other things.

The old system was fine with the old selling speed. But now we have a new system with the old selling speed.

We need more speed in sells, so the selling system goes with the drop system.

But inscriptions are always better, becase they are about weapon USE, not weapon value.

Yawgmoth · Feb 10, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

No, there were no complaint threads about weapons not being fully moddable in the old Prophecies-only times.
Nobody complaied.
The only item related complaint threads in the past were about nerfed items no longer obtainable in game (HoD swords and stuff) and about high dependancy of pvp players on pve gear (mainly armor swapping, crappy pvp item generation before NF).

Your selling speed arguments are a total nonsense, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about:

Quote:

The old system was fine with the old selling speed. But now we have a new system with the old selling speed.

while the truth is exactly opposite - the old pre Nightfall system needed improved trading much more than post-NF, there was much more variety of viable items sold, it was much harder to find an item with particular stats needed, but the selling wasn't slow!
Selling golds with high req and awkward nonperfect stats was easier and faster than selling req.9 inscribables today! Simply because there was balance between supply and demand, no HM overfarm, and no dumb inscription system which made every random drop to be just as good as the best possible drop (which in effect caused the best drops to be just as worthless as the bad ones, while still being the best)

Now it's far from old selling speed it's a different system, and the economy as taken so many hits that whole markets have collapsed. Selling now is much much slower than before, with the only easy fast sales (things still in demand) being a few perfect mods and a narrow group of skins still rare and considered prestigeous.
Making all drops inscribable in old good Prophecies and Factions would be another (and maybe fatal) crushing blow to the economy, reducing the already small group of rare and prestigeous skins to just a few.

You won't get any speed in sells with no demand. And there won't be any demand in a system where everything is so easy to get.
Inscriptions were completely not needed for anything beyond PvP item creation panel, they should have never been added to PvE.

MithranArkanere · Feb 10, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Now there is more variety? Which variety was before? Raven staves and... hm... raven staves and them.. hum... raven staves?
The rest of regions have skins then drop mostly in there, like the Gothic and Amber sets in Echovald, but in Prophecies? Which items drop mostly in Maguuma that do not usually drop somewhere else? Even the Shadow skins from fissure can be found easily in the Anguish.

The inherent modifiers where needed because there were a few skins. But now there are a lot of them!
Prophecies needs unique skins like factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North had, since its skins were turned into core skins.

If they added unique skins to prophecies, there would be actually nothing stopping Inscriptions from being worldwide.

And remember. This is Guild Wars. It's normal to have to spend time to get a rare skin, but to get a perfect wood shield? Pff... that would be senseless.

Yawgmoth · Feb 11, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Seriously stop posting when you got no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

The inherent modifiers where needed because there were a few skins. But now there are a lot of them!

LoL. A proof you're completely clueless when talking on this subject.

So the whole system where actual item rarity and uniqueness existed (yes, the devs originally wanted that as a part of the game), with the working concept of having only 1 inherent mod for weapons that require customization for efficient use (reasonable chances for a good or perfect one, but customization removing them from circulation) and 2 mods for those that don't - great variety of possible mod combinations making it hard to find an exact copy of a particular item (making it unique and cool) was balancing the fact they were staying in the economy forever; that whole thing was designed only because there were too few skins? Bad joke.

Quote:

Prophecies needs unique skins like factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North had, since its skins were turned into core skins.

There's no such thing as a 'core' skin. Having an extra odd source for a skin in another campagin doesn't make it 'core'. The Zaishen Chest can easily be considered is core content and it drops various Factions 'exclusive' skins, that makes them 'core' too?
Prophecies could use some new weapons added as it lacks compared to others, but it's an old game full of low level content with no really good spots to even add something, and adding new drops to old areas is just artifically increasing replay value while not adding real new content. And as I cannot imagine Anet adding new weapons and making them drop under the old system (too good to be true), this whole 'messing with Prophecies' is just dangerous. Better make an Expansion Pack 2.

Quote:

If they added unique skins to prophecies, there would be actually nothing stopping Inscriptions from being worldwide.

Totally wrong. Just look at Factions, there are plenty unique skins there (a free update added even more later on) and that IS exactly the reason why there should be no inscriptions there! Protecting their value from (HM) overfarm, or else it would turn into another Nightfall with everything being merchant food, no uniquness and no value to the drops.

So wrong, wrong and wrong. How about you stop trying to 'improve' an aspect of the game you have completely no clue about?

Snow Bunny · Feb 11, 2008, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Yawg, Mithran's been supporting/making bad suggestions in Sardelac before I was born.

Again, I will stress this is a terrible idea.

If you must know, I got to R5 frontlining with a 14^50 fellblade and truth be told, I was awesome, and so was my weapon.

Now, every single person I see walks around with BS inscribable garbage that really has no unique factor to it.

Chrono Re delle Ere · Feb 11, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

/not signed

at all!

MithranArkanere · Feb 11, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Meh, so just because you like things to be sluggy, slow and illogical you have to force the majority of players that like better the new system to stick to and old outsated system?

Illogical. Weapons are meant to be used, not to be shown off. People should equip what they like, not what they can get depending on other selling it or not.
Just being able to mod shields is reason enough alone.

Artorius.Maximus · Feb 11, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Didn't read entire thread, I really don't think that all hard mode drops should be inscribable. I do think that all hard mode drops should be max damage, not necessarily max mods, possibly even majority at req 13, but I would like to think that in hard mode everything would at least be a max weapon.

MithranArkanere · Feb 11, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

I don't think so. Hard Mode it's not so hard, just... harder. Many monsters can be easily farme din hard mode, some even easier in hard mode than in normal mode thanks to their increased attacks, damage and so.

The main thing to consider it's that the system is already added, and most most people already use it, like with insignia, and now the old system has to coexist with the new.

They didn't added the inscriptions along the old drop system, they replaced it, now the damage is done, inscibed drops are here. But not everywhere, that makes the Prophecies and Factions drops inconsistent with the system.

Weapon upgrade traders and inscriptions worldwide fixes that.
Skill over time, speed over grind, says in the box.

agrios · Feb 12, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Inscriptions and Insignias Rule. They should be all over the place.

And /agree with MithranArkanere , GW is a game of skill not a equipment driven title. Many people that complain about it is because they paid humongous amounts of money on items that can be obtained much easier now. Typical elitism.

Undivine · Feb 12, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

It was always rediculous that any item was ever worth 100K + ectos. You seriously want to preserve that? Bring the inscriptions worldwide! They've made playing the game better. I couldn't care less if some people cannot rip off other players as easily anymore. Anything from Prophecies is worthless to anyone who's practical enough to want to use their weapons; not just show them off.