Curse

Raul the Rampant · Oct 22, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So the fact that a ranger with high E will only need to regen about half the cost of the skill before being able to use it isn't a fallback?

The assassins and dervs have extra regen so it's not exactly half the wait for the ranger, but this is more of a detail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you are to e-deny an assassin they either need to wait 4 secs to regen the energy before using a 5 energy skill or need to get lucky and critical.

1 in 3 chance of scoring a critical with a 12-12 split... higher with runes. Add in zealous daggers (which every assassin should carry for these exact situations) and there's seriously something wrong if they're waiting 4 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If a dervy wants to use a 5 energy skill - they need to again wait and regen or get lucky and have an ench end on them.

Alright, unless there's multiple enemies bunched together (like a bodyblocked team or a spirit nest) and that derv has a zealous scythe it'll take him/her a little longer to recoup than the assassin. One swing in that situation and they should be fine, but that's probably too conditional to be taken seriously. Swinging at a single target with a zealous scythe will still make it take less than 4 seconds, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If a ranger wants to use a 5 energy skill - they need to wait 2 secs to regen the energy.

Again, the extra pip of regen makes the gap a little less (making it take a little over 2 seconds to recoup), but rangers have zealous weapons, too, so 2 seconds might be about right. Still, the gap between the sin and derv and ranger recoup time should end up being fairly comparable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

On one side you have the option of scoring high with something non-predictable combined with a long wait if you do not get lucky - on the other side you have something predictable but without the possible highs NOR lows.

With the assassins you can't necessarily say exactly which attack a critical will occur on, but you can safely assume that, say, over the course of 10 seconds you can count on criticalling twice and getting the energy return from that. Seems fairly predictable to me, and like I said above the waits aren't that long (especially compared to the waits ele's and necros and mesmers have on their skills should they be interrupted). Throwing some blocking stances at them may mess this reliability up some, but it would do the same to a dervish or ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The big issue here though is - what happens when a class isn't e-denied.
Let's take a ranger being played bad and let's take an assassin being played bad.

A bad assassin? Surely you jest.

But alright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Are you seriously suggesting that an assassin that doesn't watch his energy will be able to perform on the same level as a ranger that doesn't watch his energy? Or will the ranger have an easier task?

Well even though assassins and rangers are designed with different purposes in mind I would say no, the outcomes should be pretty comparable. Assassins should be a hit-and-run type weapon; go in, go through their attack chain once and then get out. If the assassin cannot design his/her attack chain to fit within their available energy pool, they fail. If they are capable of going through their chain multiple times they may be good at energy management, but they still fail in that they are not meant to overstay their welcome (as all bad assassins do)... with the low AL at close range prolonged combat = death, and they're additionally putting undue stress (assuming they don't overextend, which is a dangerous assumption I guess) on the team's healers/protters. As long as an assassin can get in, complete the chain with the resources they went in with, and escape alive it is successful; if not they die, and dead people don't have to worry about energy.

Rangers are somewhat more durable in prolonged combat (which is their intent if they're wielding a bow) but that won't make them last forever in close quarters (which seems to be where most of these problems stem from... the melee rangers). All the expertise in the world doesn't provide extra health or armor, so (just like an assassin) a crappy melee ranger who (inevitably) overstays his/her welcome and (again, assuming he/she even stays within range) put extra stress on the healers is going to end up dead in a hurry, too, and not have any energy problems at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's the problem of E - it allows bad players that should have failed - to not fail at all or fail considerably later.

Bad players are going to fail hard and fast regardless of the class they choose. A terrible warrior will probably live the longest (assuming nothing like frenzy is active) since it has the highest AL, and each subsequent class will die progressively faster depending on it's AL. From a defensive standpoint expertise does not make a person more durable, so the energy they save on attack skills won't get them far in that department... they're going to die just as fast regardless of whether Mystic Sweep cost 5 energy or 3. Maybe I'm wrong, but being dead seems like a failure to me.

From an offensive standpoint a ranger with high expertise may be able to pump out some damage for a little longer, but if it's really that much of a nuisance to the opposing team the ranger is going to become a priority target and be taken down just the same. Again, to me, being dead is not what I would consider a success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Just as SR.

Soul Reaping triggers on deaths, which if you take player deaths into consideration this is much much more random than the critical striking chances of an assassin (unless you're suiciding, but that's probably counter-productive in most situations now). This is exactly the type of win-big/lose-hard scenario mentioned above.

And in that sense, I guess necros on bad teams actually do get the most benefit from SR, as those are the situations where deaths are the most common and most predictable. All the energy in the world from dead teammates won't save a necro from an 8-1 beatdown for more than a few seconds, though, and I wouldn't advocate changing it simply for that.

upier · Oct 22, 2008, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

From an offensive standpoint a ranger with high expertise may be able to pump out some damage for a little longer,

This is the whole point.
And it's the same thing with SR.
The skill of the player does not change - yet the player ends up being more effective.

This is the issue I am arguing and it's because of this that E and SR need to die.

(Slightly off:
If you have a 1 in 3 chance to score a critical hit - that's not predictable. Over an infinite number of times a third out of those hits WILL be criticals - but a single hit still only has a 1/3 chance of being a critical. It still boils down to luck.
EDIT:
I completely forgot about another issue here.
You know why E is also predictable?
Because the ranger needs to be alive and in 2ish secs he'll have enough energy to fire out that 5 energy skill.
And why CS aren't?
Because the assassin not only needs to be alive - he also needs to be able to attack at the time of being completely e-denied. Blind or other attack miss chance modifiers, attack speed reduction, movement speed reduction ... - that everything influences being able to regain energy for a 5 energy attack. IF the guy gets lucky and has the odds in his favor - he'll regain the energy much faster then the ranger. And that's the high I was telling you about. But if the world suddenly turns his back on him - he'll have to wait a bit longer.
And it's the same thing with Mysticism. If you don't have an ench ending at that particular moment when you NEED it to end - you will end up waiting a bit.)

jaximus · Oct 22, 2008, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This is the whole point.
Blind or other attack miss chance modifiers, attack speed reduction, movement speed reduction ...

i see what youre getting at here, but as a ranger, these things effect you every bit as much. so you can get your 5e d-shot off while blinded for 2-3 energy. but it misses, not very useful.

lets look at this in terms of VoR. warriors can build adren during with no harm to themselves, sins can crit during, again no harm, dervs can have enchants end during, no issues. expertise only comes into play when activating skills. so rangers have no benefit while hexed. (more later, class time now)

upier · Oct 22, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

i see what youre getting at here, but as a ranger, these things effect you every bit as much. so you can get your 5e d-shot off while blinded for 2-3 energy. but it misses, not very useful.

lets look at this in terms of VoR. warriors can build adren during with no harm to themselves, sins can crit during, again no harm, dervs can have enchants end during, no issues. expertise only comes into play when activating skills. so rangers have no benefit while hexed. (more later, class time now)

No, no, no.
Don't mistake obtaining the energy for the skill WITH activating the skill.
Everything that I listed there affects the ranger (the same way that it affects all martial weapon classes) when USING the skill.
BUT that doesn't affect that ranger in the slightest when it comes to gaining the energy to use that skill!
As long as the ranger is alive for those 2ish secs - he will gain enough energy to use a 5 energy skill.
An assassin on the other hand needs to attack to be able to gain energy faster then through his normal regen rate! Otherwise he will only have enough energy after 4ish secs!
That's why E is predictable and CS aren't!

jaximus · Oct 22, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

No, no, no.
Don't mistake obtaining the energy for the skill WITH activating the skill.

im confused about your point here. obtaining the energy for a skill and activation are exactly what expertise is about. until you activate a skill, a ranger would still need 5 energy since expertise is applied during activation. until the ranger uses a skill, they have the equivalent of 0 expertise. yes you can activate a 5e skill for 2-3 but that requires you to use skills. many skills are out there to counter using skills. a sin has crit strikes all the time.

as for the cyclic abuse of attack skills ala escape/scythe, until nf the only energy based short recharge/timered attacks were based in str where a secondary could not abuse them and the limitations of warriors energy limited their use. when the scythe line was introduced with 'melee' attacks scaling on the scythe attribute came along, it allowed for slow attack speed weapons to abuse the timers along with the obvious reason to use with a scythe for the high damage. so because of nf overpowered skills and weapons, one of the core attributes should be changed. no, simply no.

upier · Oct 22, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

im confused about your point here. obtaining the energy for a skill and activation are exactly what expertise is about. until you activate a skill, a ranger would still need 5 energy since expertise is applied during activation. until the ranger uses a skill, they have the equivalent of 0 expertise. yes you can activate a 5e skill for 2-3 but that requires you to use skills. many skills are out there to counter using skills. a sin has crit strikes all the time.

Imagine that both the assassin and the ranger sitting on 0 energy.
Both guys want to use an energy skill.
So the question arises how does one obtain that energy?
The ranger just needs to sit it out. Wait 2ish secs - and the ranger can use a 5 energy skill. It doesn't matter if he is blinded, of slowed down or ... He will still gain enough energy in 2ish secs to fire off that 5 energy skill.
What about the assassin?
If the assassin waits it out - he needs to wait 4ish secs. And here CS come into play. He can obtain that energy faster - but he needs to attack to achieve that. If he is blinded, if he doesn't achieve a critical strike, if he is blocked, if his attack speed is slowed-down, if he needs to reach the target, ... - his CS primary isn't doing him any favors. Now - he might get lucky and actually score a double strike and a critical hit - all in his first attack, he might even be under an IAS - and that will speed up his e-gain.
But that's too many "IF"s to speak of anything else other then luck here. You simply can't say that when you'll be in a match and sitting on 0 energy that you will have a target that you will be able to attack, that you won't be blinded or slowed-down, ...
That's why CS aren't predictable and E is.

What happens after they gain enough energy to activate a skill though, has nothing to do with e-gain any longer.

jaximus · Oct 22, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

the scenario where they both have 0 energy=

1. ranger spamming interrupts on recharge/attack skills with broken timers
2. sin activating and failing on an entire chain
3. e-denial skills used against them??
(please help with further scenarios where this occurs)

for option 1, you either arent hitting key skills as you should be or you are abusing the problem with the game that isnt due to expertise.

for option 2, you should know the skills you have, the order they should be activated in, and if they block one, you should cancel. no sin should wind up at zero energy after a successful attack chain.

for option 3, if the opposing team is using e denial against a ranger/sin and is also blinding/anti-whatever hexing them, lol?

as for CS being unpredictable and E being predictable, thats due to the nature of the beast. it goes back to roles of classes. rangers need to be responsive to adapt to the opposition. therefore they need to know that over time they will be able to continue this with predictable E. CS is unpredictable because an assassin should (a good one anyway) picks a time to attack when they are ready and opportunity presents itself (internally predictable). they make sure they are able to pull off the required damage and then once that requirement is met, they pounce. then they wait for another opportunity when they meet their own needs. proper execution of an attack chain should replenish some of this spent energy so the wait time is reduced.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 23, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because the assassin not only needs to be alive - he also needs to be able to attack at the time of being completely e-denied. Blind or other attack miss chance modifiers, attack speed reduction, movement speed reduction ... - that everything influences being able to regain energy for a 5 energy attack.

I’d respond, but…

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

as a ranger, these things (meaning blind or other attack miss chance modifiers, attack speed reduction, movement speed reduction effect you every bit as much. so you can get your 5e d-shot off while blinded for 2-3 energy. but it misses, not very useful.

…the win in jaximus’ statement renders anything I can add unnecessary (note: I added the part in parenthesis for clarification).

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

No, no, no.
Don't mistake obtaining the energy for the skill WITH activating the skill.
Everything that I listed there affects the ranger (the same way that it affects all martial weapon classes) when USING the skill.

Then any signet in existence is incredibly OP since any character can activate them without ever having to recoup the energy needed to use a 5 energy skill. Since when does merely activating a skill amount to anything if it does not produce any result?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If the assassin waits it out - he needs to wait 4ish secs. And here CS come into play. He can obtain that energy faster - but he needs to attack to achieve that. If he is blinded, if he doesn't achieve a critical strike, if he is blocked, if his attack speed is slowed-down, if he needs to reach the target, ... - his CS primary isn't doing him any favors.

And how does a ranger being able to activate a skill that gets blocked or misses because he is blinded come out ahead because of his primary? The only difference between an assassin with 3 energy that can’t use a skill and a ranger with 3 energy who uses a skill and has it miss or be blocked is that the ranger gets an animation… and the other team gets to watch him activate a skill that does nothing and laugh. If that’s what is considered overpowered why don’t hammer warriors equip sword skills without taking a sword along? As merely activating them is enough to be worthwhile there is no need to ever bother putting points into something or put any thought whatsoever into a build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You simply can't say that when you'll be in a match and sitting on 0 energy that you will have a target that you will be able to attack, that you won't be blinded or slowed-down, ...

If you cannot simply say that an assassin will have a target to attack then how is it possible to justify saying that the ranger will have a target to attack and ‘abuse’ expertise? Did I miss an update that changed things so that assassins can only target specific classes? If there is a target for one then there has to be a target for the other, and if there are no targets for one there can’t be for the other, either; there is no gray area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What happens after they gain enough energy to activate a skill though, has nothing to do with e-gain any longer.

Then why is it not overpowered that caster classes get 4 pips of regen when warriors and paragons do not? Casters can recoup energy much faster than a warrior or paragon, and since what is done with that energy has no bearing whatsoever because the only thing that matters is how fast they get it back. Adrenaline cannot matter either, then, as the one and only issue is apparently how long it takes for each class to collect enough energy to activate a 5 energy skill. If rangers are overpowered because they get it back faster than an assassin (which they don’t necessarily), then assassins, dervishes, monks, elementalists, mesmers, necromancers, and ritualists are all overpowered because they get it back faster than a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The skill of the player does not change - yet the player ends up being more effective.

If this is the case then monks shouldn’t be allowed activate skills that heal themselves, as simply using this allows them to live longer (without being more skilled) than they would otherwise (meaning they fail later than they would have if they didn’t). Block stances should be removed because they do the same, as do spells and skills that buff armor and health. Even speed boosts allow players to run from situations where they would otherwise fail sooner. And who cares that all of these are skill based rather than attribute based? Clearly activating the skill is the important part, not the effects of it.

Div · Oct 23, 2008, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

i realize that yes, axe rangers, pack hunters, and to a lesser extent thumpers, are degenerate builds that are effective and easy to play. i just dont think the stated change would help enough.

Thumpers will have crushing blow and often dstrike, and making them pay the full energy cost for those skills will slow them down to a less lame level. Axe rangers would only get affected if they bring dstrike, so obviously if it's still a problem something else has to be done. Most pack hunters run maiming spear and/or disrupting throw, and that's going to be a lot more energy if they're using it on recharge.

upier · Oct 23, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

And how does a ranger being able to activate a skill that gets blocked or misses because he is blinded come out ahead because of his primary?

I obviously wasn't clear enough.
Like I said - there are 2 processes here.
Process 1: gaining enough energy to activate a skill.
Process 2: activating a skill.
Now let's consider that both the assassin and ranger are blinded.
And let's for a moment leave the process of gaining enough energy aside. Let's say that both the ranger and the assassin have enough energy to activate the skill.
What happens next?
Blind enters into the equation. The same random event.
Both are having the exactly same issue.
And that is why I am NOT discussing this.
This isn't an issue connected with E - it's an issue connected with the effectiveness of blind!
Blind affects both guys in the same way when when activating a skill so there is absolutely NO reason to discuss this process.

Now let's return to process 1.
Gaining energy to activate the skill.
Scenario 1:
1. Both the ranger and the assassin are in top form.
Nothing is holding them back. No hexes, no blind, ..
The ranger will obtain enough energy to activate a skill in 2ish secs.
The assassin needs a a target to attack. And since he does (they are in top form!) he might lucky with a double strike, critical strike or he'll just have to wait it out until he regens enough energy.
Scenario 2:
2. Both the ranger and the assassin are NOT in top form.
Blind, hexes, ...
The ranger will obtain enough energy to activate a skill in 2ish secs.
The assassin needs to have a target to attack. He might not have it.
He needs to hit a target. He might not be able to.
He wants a critical hit. He might not get it.
He wants a double strike. He might not get it.
He can regen the energy.

Do you see what the only predictable thing when it comes to CS is?
Waiting to regen the energy.
Everything else is a gamble.

Am I clear now?

And the ONLY reason why this is even being discussed is because you stated that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

@upier... I'm not sure where you are going with that. You said that rangers do not have to worry about the limitations that are supposed to be imposed by their energy pool, and I responded by providing an instance in which they are. Full e-denial on a ranger makes it unable to use skill regardless of much expertise he or she has. Then I proceeded to give an example as to how the other martial weapon classes have inherent fallbacks to guard against this. Being completely impotent with 0 energy and having fewer pool manipulation tools than casters seems like quite the limitation to me given that related classes do not face this same restriction; essentially that's hanging a ranger out to dry in a way that no other class is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

With the assassins you can't necessarily say exactly which attack a critical will occur on, but you can safely assume that, say, over the course of 10 seconds you can count on criticalling twice and getting the energy return from that. Seems fairly predictable to me, and like I said above the waits aren't that long (especially compared to the waits ele's and necros and mesmers have on their skills should they be interrupted). Throwing some blocking stances at them may mess this reliability up some, but it would do the same to a dervish or ranger.

Expertise provides a fallback and CS aren't predictable.
That's the whole point of this post up to this point.
So if you chose to quote it - please disagree with the statement:
"Expertise provides a fallback and CS aren't predictable."
Otherwise we are done with this part of the discussion.

And let's focus on the REAL issue:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

If this is the case then monks shouldn’t be allowed activate skills that heal themselves, as simply using this allows them to live longer (without being more skilled) than they would otherwise (meaning they fail later than they would have if they didn’t). Block stances should be removed because they do the same, as do spells and skills that buff armor and health. Even speed boosts allow players to run from situations where they would otherwise fail sooner. And who cares that all of these are skill based rather than attribute based? Clearly activating the skill is the important part, not the effects of it.

To quote you again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

From an offensive standpoint a ranger with high expertise may be able to pump out some damage for a little longer,

What we have here is a player that has a skill level of X.
Yet, when that players plays a ranger his output is bigger then that of level X. He himself can only produce the output of X.
So there must be an outside influence that raises his output for level X.
And that's what E and SR do. If E was balanced - the player player wouldn't be able "to pump out some damage for a little longer". He'd pump out as much damage as his skill level (X) allows.
They allow a player to perform better then they should.
That's why they are bad.

jaximus · Oct 23, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Expertise provides a fallback and CS aren't predictable.

i said this before

as for CS being unpredictable and E being predictable, thats due to the nature of the beast. it goes back to roles of classes. rangers need to be responsive to adapt to the opposition. therefore they need to know that over time they will be able to continue this with predictable E. CS is unpredictable because an assassin should (a good one anyway) picks a time to attack when they are ready and opportunity presents itself (internally predictable). they make sure they are able to pull off the required damage and then once that requirement is met, they pounce. then they wait for another opportunity when they meet their own needs. proper execution of an attack chain should replenish some of this spent energy so the wait time is reduced.

and

the only situation where i see the need to activate a 5e skill when i have no energy would be for a self heal? so the sin would wait 2(?) more seconds to activate the skill but it takes 1s for shadow refuge, 1/4 sec for feigned neutrality. so the ranger would use troll i would assume 2(?) seconds before the sin could, but with the activation time, they are equal no?

but

because troll is a skill that says PLEASE INTERRUPT ME, you need to cover with natty stride/blocking stance. so then youd need more energy correct?

also as either a sin or ranger, you are wielding a 2 handed weapon. if you are in a situation of blind/hex/low energy, a good player would manipulate the situation likely with a shield/wep combo for +60hp and if you encounter 0 energy often times, a +5e martial wep. although we are not discussing good players here, so this is merely an example.

as for interruption/removal the the healing possibilities, we are looking at activation because this is where expertise comes into play. there are fewer skills where you can interrupt a skill vs. a spell, but thats why the activation time is so much greater for troll over a spell based skill.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 24, 2008, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I obviously wasn't clear enough.
Like I said - there are 2 processes here.
Process 1: gaining enough energy to activate a skill.
Process 2: activating a skill.
Now let's consider that both the assassin and ranger are blinded.
And let's for a moment leave the process of gaining enough energy aside. Let's say that both the ranger and the assassin have enough energy to activate the skill.
What happens next?
Blind enters into the equation. The same random event.
Both are having the exactly same issue.
And that is why I am NOT discussing this.
This isn't an issue connected with E - it's an issue connected with the effectiveness of blind!
Blind affects both guys in the same way when when activating a skill so there is absolutely NO reason to discuss this process.

Then why bring it up? I’m pretty sure this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I completely forgot about another issue here.
You know why E is also predictable?
Because the ranger needs to be alive and in 2ish secs he'll have enough energy to fire out that 5 energy skill.
And why CS aren't?
Because the assassin not only needs to be alive - he also needs to be able to attack at the time of being completely e-denied. Blind or other attack miss chance modifiers, attack speed reduction, movement speed reduction ... - that everything influences being able to regain energy for a 5 energy attack. IF the guy gets lucky and has the odds in his favor - he'll regain the energy much faster then the ranger. And that's the high I was telling you about. But if the world suddenly turns his back on him - he'll have to wait a bit longer.
And it's the same thing with Mysticism. If you don't have an ench ending at that particular moment when you NEED it to end - you will end up waiting a bit.)

is what started it. Bringing blind into the argument worked well until it backfired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Now let's return to process 1.
Gaining energy to activate the skill.
Scenario 1:
1. Both the ranger and the assassin are in top form.
Nothing is holding them back. No hexes, no blind, ..
The ranger will obtain enough energy to activate a skill in 2ish secs.
The assassin needs a a target to attack. And since he does (they are in top form!) he might lucky with a double strike, critical strike or he'll just have to wait it out until he regens enough energy.
Scenario 2:
2. Both the ranger and the assassin are NOT in top form.
Blind, hexes, ...
The ranger will obtain enough energy to activate a skill in 2ish secs.
The assassin needs to have a target to attack. He might not have it.
He needs to hit a target. He might not be able to.
He wants a critical hit. He might not get it.
He wants a double strike. He might not get it.
He can regen the energy.

Do you see what the only predictable thing when it comes to CS is?
Waiting to regen the energy.
Everything else is a gamble.

Am I clear now?

Scenario 1: Both of them are in top form. The assassin goes through his chain and the ranger does his thing. Now let’s say they’ve both managed to exhaust their energy pools entirely. Yes, the ranger has to wait less time than the assassin to activate a single 5 energy skill. But now let’s look at how each class is designed. As jaximus has said so many times already, rangers need to be able to react at a moment’s notice; assassins do not. What, pray tell, is this assassin going to do with merely a single 5 energy skill? Death’s charge into the enemy formation and then twiddle his thumbs while he gets enough energy to go through a chain?… oh, right, we’re talking about bad ones, so scratch that. The point is that assassins go through lots of energy fast and then need to recoup… this is why they have such amazing spike ability. If they never had to wait for energy nobody would ever play any other class. Rangers, on the other hand, are designed for pressure, meaning they need the ability to use skills throughout, just as a warrior does. In this scenario, who does more damage in the short term? The assassin, as his chain allows him to (all other things being equal) spike a single target to death (or very near it) in 3-4 seconds; the ranger, on the other hand, will come nowhere near the damage output of that assassin during the same time period.

Scenario 2: The ranger will be able to loft arrows from his attack skills or swing his melee attacks into nothingness until his/her arms fall off (and flaunting his skill activation animation while they’re at it), and will have accomplished the exact same damage output of the assassin regardless of whether the assassin attempts to attack or not. In fact, if the ranger continues to attack through anti-melee hexes he’s going to die in a hurry, regardless of whether his attacks hit or not… the fact that he can activate skills sooner only accelerates his death! How’s THAT for overpowered? That same assassin with 0 energy and the same hexes is much better off by not attacking than the ranger who is. And once again, if the assassin does not have a target to attack then the ranger cannot either. As for the predictability is concerned, being blinded (again if it’s not relevant why keep bringing it back up?) ensures essentially a 100% chance of not criticalling, but a probability of 100% is no less predictable than a probability of 33% (more on this below). How this is unclear I is beyond my comprehension.

If the ability to use a skill for defensive purposes is desired (which is really all a blinded and hexed and e-denied melee/ranged attack character should be doing), then this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

the only situation where i see the need to activate a 5e skill when i have no energy would be for a self heal? so the sin would wait 2(?) more seconds to activate the skill but it takes 1s for shadow refuge, 1/4 sec for feigned neutrality. so the ranger would use troll i would assume 2(?) seconds before the sin could, but with the activation time, they are equal no?

but…

because troll is a skill that says PLEASE INTERRUPT ME, you need to cover with natty stride/blocking stance. so then youd need more energy correct?

…this. Using 2 skills as a ranger to accomplish the same thing an assassin can with 1 is a form of balance. Also, he neglected to mention that all the blocking stances in the world aren’t going to stop a mesmer with PD or Leech Signet or the like from interrupting Troll Unguent (or Mending Touch); nor will it stop a KD from something like Shock or Gale (read: spell-based KD) or one of the numerous warrior skills touch skills or attack ones that cause one if blocked. Interrupting the 1 second assassin self heals it a heck of a lot harder than hitting a 3 second activation time on a skill.

And I’m just going to go out on a limb here and assume another rebuttal will be forthcoming… so in light of that I’m going to assume you’re going to feel that you were still not clear enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if you chose to quote it - please disagree with the statement:
"Expertise provides a fallback and CS aren't predictable."

So – if you choose to quote my statements – please read what is being said. I already did disagree with it, and even in the section of mine which you quoted yourself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

With the assassins you can't necessarily say exactly which attack a critical will occur on, but you can safely assume that, say, over the course of 10 seconds you can count on criticalling twice and getting the energy return from that.

Being able to predict a percentage of the success rate (even over a given period of time) is, by definition, predictable; statistics and probability have been showing this for centuries. Naturally the rate changes depending on how many points the player puts into the attribute and what measures the opponent takes, but this is in no way different than how expertise works and is in no way less predictable. Perhaps then you are arguing that we should nerf (or make a PvE/PvP split) the definition of predictable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

let's focus on the REAL issue:

-having some issues quoting within a quote, but scroll up if necessary-

What we have here is a player that has a skill level of X.
Yet, when that players plays a ranger his output is bigger then that of level X. He himself can only produce the output of X.
So there must be an outside influence that raises his output for level X.
And that's what E and SR do. If E was balanced - the player player wouldn't be able "to pump out some damage for a little longer". He'd pump out as much damage as his skill level (X) allows.
They allow a player to perform better then they should.
That's why they are bad.

Perhaps I should revisit my original statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

From an offensive standpoint a ranger with high expertise may be able to pump out some damage for a little longer

See what I did there? I bolded something important. Assuming that A) the ranger is not blinded, B) the target has no blocking capabilities, C) the ranger is not hexed with something like Reckless Haste, D) the ranger has not been hurting himself by attacking through Empathy/Spiteful Spirit/Price of Failure/Visions of Regret/Spoil Victor/etc., E) the ranger has been receiving healing in the case of condition D being true, and F) the other team is not attempting to kill him or cause conditions A-D to be met, then yes, he will be able to do more damage than he would with 0 expertise. If any of the conditions are met, though, the ranger will die and have not done any more damage than he would have had he had maxed expertise (which, for some reason, is proving to be entirely impossible to comprehend). And again, especially for condition D expertise only accelerates his downfall. Poor players will rely on expertise to continue attacking in situations where it would be much wiser to retreat and regroup, too; is that to be considered a crutch as well?

As for the scenario involving player X that we keep returning to, I see no need to do anything other than point to the first section of text you quoted of mine in that section. It simply extends the player X scenario to the other classes. I do however fail to see how an inherent benefit to a ranger (expertise) can be classified as an ‘outside influence.’ Also, I fail to see how a ranger being able to activate a 5 energy skill for 3 energy causes soul reaping to be overpowered, regardless of how many times that argument is presented. Just sayin’.

Trylo · Oct 24, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Thumpers will have crushing blow and often dstrike, and making them pay the full energy cost for those skills will slow them down to a less lame level. Axe rangers would only get affected if they bring dstrike, so obviously if it's still a problem something else has to be done. Most pack hunters run maiming spear and/or disrupting throw, and that's going to be a lot more energy if they're using it on recharge.

another problem i now have with pet abusers is the skill scavenger's strike. this would take care of a lot of energy management issues even if expertise is scaled back. obviously this could be changed quite easily, but knowing izzy... it wouldnt get changed or something would be buffed to some obscene level. also minor tweaks to the builds could heighten the energy usage (switch disrupting anything for bestial pounce, etc.)

in short im afraid were already too deep into the game to change this aspect.

@Raul:
edit: im bored so im going to argue it anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

There's a reason WoH is elite: it's better than the comparable non-elites. Also, the base heal on WoH is not 180... that's counting the bonus conditional heal. There are no bonuses to Expertise or Divine Favor that reflect health levels or any other condition other than the number of attribute points invested in them, so including bonuses that have no analogous function to the other is completely useless. The base is 105 at 12 healing, which still equates a 27.6% bonus (29/105), or a savings of 1.4 energy per cast. That's 1.4 energy per second if you cast nonstop (again, theoretically... not that you would) which is greater than the 1.5 pips of regen you hold so dear.

why do i need to have something comparable to a sub par heal skill? the only thing i understood you were comparing was the fact they both cost 5 energy. on my bar, my only heal might be WoH. so im going to use it. why would i use a worse heal, and why would i use it on someone over 50% health unnecessarily? i obviously didnt make my point clear.

say i use shield of absorption. it blocks 500+ damage since i placed it right as a target started to get trained. what happens to the measly DF bonus now? it didnt help me reduce any energy spent, good playing helped me stay energy efficient. expertise allows players to recklessly use energy, and still stay efficient while still doing something useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Also there's no difference between the divine favor bonus for healing and the divine favor bonus for protting, so saying using healing as the example makes it irrelevant is itself irrelevant. If you're protting you're simply saving the healer this energy, so the aggregate effect is exactly the same. As for using Orison as the example (also mentioned D-kiss, btw), I chose that because it was an instant 5 energy cast spell that does not require any further stipulation (like a half cast range) and it leaves out all other conditional bonuses. It's simply the purest (from an example standpoint) 5 energy heal out there... as we're dealing with Rangers abusing attack skills (or toucher ones) from other classes that more often than not cost 5 base energy to activate puts it on an even level.

youre comparing apples to some inorganic, unspherical, inedible, thing. in what manner do heals and attacks have anything to do with each other? youre trying to compare a really energy inefficient heal+DF to expertise. just because a spell and an attack both cost 5 energy does not make them even on any level. i can stop hundreds of damage from a 5 energy guardian, SoA, and close to a thousand from SB, and even more from a PS. sure DF is effective percentage-wise on some 5e healing prayers, but it gets less and less useful with 10 and 15 energy spells, while expertise's percentages never change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

You get a specific attunement skill for each element that returns more energy with even 0 points invested in that line (not that you ever would), which outclasses expertise until r8. Then, the attribute itself provides you a massive pool of energy. GoLE is a great non-elite skill from that line, and prior to the fast-casting Icy Shackles, Elemental Attunement, Ether Renewal, and Ether Prodigy all saw play in non-water spikes or utility healing roles. And yes, there is always the option to use secondary classes to manage energy, but as I pointed out this is not the case for rangers. Which leads to this:

none of that changes the fact that rangers get a passive, unstrippable, skill slot less, attunement for their attribute points. and its not like those are wasted points, rangers still get loads of skills in the expertise attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Uhh.... duh? I'm saying that rangers would require secondary profession energy management if expertise is taken away, not that they need it now...

which inherently makes them better than many other classes, which is bad.

and as for (what i assume) your argument will be, "warriors dont need emanagement because of adr." this is somewhat true. they either need to spend energy to make adrenaline (IAS), or adrenaline to make more adrenaline (Lions comfort, flail, etc.). also remember that one attack skill is always +1 adr., while one adr. skill is always +0 adr. warriors' 5e skills were also made with the idea that a warrior would not be able to spam them, such as distracting blow/strike, crushing blow, etc as a ranger can. this also ties in with the idea that moebius strike and death blossom spam shouldnt be spammed, as well as the idea that spear attacks (maiming, disrupting, vicious, etc) shouldnt be spammed for little to no energy management thought on the player's part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Also at no point did I say "Trylo, you specifically called for the complete (or even partial) removal of expertise." At no point did I even imply that you specifically said anything along those lines...

i assume since it was right under a quote of something i said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Taking away the expertise from Rangers leaves them with prepared shot as the only viable energy management for PvP...

...you assumed i thought that. sorry you were unclear if thats not what you meant.

valence · Oct 24, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

the biggest problem with primaries have been using the primary mainly for their secondary.

Upon creation of skills, they are kept in check for their primary. This means that diversion under fast cast is reasonable, but a necro casting diversion is twice as hard to pull off. This is all reasonable.

A ranger 'spamming' ranger skills under Expertise is exactly how the class is suppose to be (every ranger skill is balanced with expertise in mind), using scythe attacks not.

Soul Reaping is plain broken if it triggers. It's one of those designs where you put an huge drawback on something (investing attribute points on something maybe not worthwhile) but giving great benefits if it does trigger in the right time. By buffing sr (ff/wod) you remove a part of the drawback, that while sr didn't had that much of a drawback in the right gimmick.

fast casting on secondaries makes it basically impossible to interrupt. old example was the me/e with ward, now we got the water mesmers. ward was changed so it couldn't be abused by mesmers, though ward wasn't the issue.

A crit hit with a dagger is all reasonable (they got a low max dmg for a reason), an assassing using dagger expensive dagger chains get a bit of extra damage, not much but energy to keep using their chains. Exactly the idea of Critical Strikes. 100% crit hits with a scythe is asking for gimmick shit, with energy to boost.

I stick with my standpoint I had months ago, when a topic like this was made about expertise. A primary should never accomplish the goal better then the secondary they take, in which case you took the wrong primary. Secondaries give you utility, not a proffesion.

jaximus · Oct 24, 2008, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

I stick with my standpoint I had months ago, when a topic like this was made about expertise. A primary should never accomplish the goal better then the secondary they take, in which case you took the wrong primary. Secondaries give you utility, not a proffesion.

/clap

i think this says it all

Numa Pompilius · Oct 24, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

the biggest problem with primaries have been using the primary mainly for their secondary.
...
A primary should never accomplish the goal better then the secondary they take

Yes, I agree. And once again it seems to me that this problem shows up with both Soul Reaping and Expertise in PvE, but only with Expertise in PvP due to the fact that less things die in PvP.

Actually, using this criterium (that a secondary should be worse than a primary) we see that there's also problems with Assassin critical hits and Mesmer illusion and inspiration. Which seems about right to me.

upier · Oct 24, 2008, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Then why bring it up? I’m pretty sure this:
is what started it. Bringing blind into the argument worked well until it backfired.

Thanks for quoting me there and saving me from having to go back and find it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Blind or other attack miss chance modifiers, attack speed reduction, movement speed reduction ... - that everything influences being able to regain energy for a 5 energy attack. IF the guy gets lucky and has the odds in his favor - he'll regain the energy much faster then the ranger. And that's the high I was telling you about. But if the world suddenly turns his back on him - he'll have to wait a bit longer.

That should make it clear I was NEVER talking about the process of activating the skill but ALWAYS about the process of e-gain.
If you misunderstood me - sorry, I should have worded it better.
But don't make an argument out of something I never said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Being able to predict a percentage of the success rate (even over a given period of time) is, by definition, predictable; statistics and probability have been showing this for centuries. Naturally the rate changes depending on how many points the player puts into the attribute and what measures the opponent takes, but this is in no way different than how expertise works and is in no way less predictable. Perhaps then you are arguing that we should nerf (or make a PvE/PvP split) the definition of predictable?

What you can say is that the player has a X percent chance of scoring a critical hit on every hit.
What you can NOT safely say is that in the course of 10 seconds he will score critical twice.
The only thing predictable about CS, like you said, is that you have a given percentage of the chance to critical. And based on that the statement "CS aren't predictable" really is wrong.
That's I want to modify it the way I actually thought it - but never thought I worded it wrong. It should actually ready that it's not the attribute that is not predictable - it's achieving a critical strike that isn't - thus gaining energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

See what I did there? I bolded something important. Assuming that A) the ranger is not blinded, B) the target has no blocking capabilities, C) the ranger is not hexed with something like Reckless Haste, D) the ranger has not been hurting himself by attacking through Empathy/Spiteful Spirit/Price of Failure/Visions of Regret/Spoil Victor/etc., E) the ranger has been receiving healing in the case of condition D being true, and F) the other team is not attempting to kill him or cause conditions A-D to be met, then yes, he will be able to do more damage than he would with 0 expertise. If any of the conditions are met, though, the ranger will die and have not done any more damage than he would have had he had maxed expertise (which, for some reason, is proving to be entirely impossible to comprehend). And again, especially for condition D expertise only accelerates his downfall. Poor players will rely on expertise to continue attacking in situations where it would be much wiser to retreat and regroup, too; is that to be considered a crutch as well?

As for the scenario involving player X that we keep returning to, I see no need to do anything other than point to the first section of text you quoted of mine in that section. It simply extends the player X scenario to the other classes. I do however fail to see how an inherent benefit to a ranger (expertise) can be classified as an ‘outside influence.’ Also, I fail to see how a ranger being able to activate a 5 energy skill for 3 energy causes soul reaping to be overpowered, regardless of how many times that argument is presented. Just sayin’.

The issue isn't a ranger with high E vs a ranger with no E.
The issue is the ranger class as an energy based class vs. other energy (weapon mastery) based classes. Expertise allows a bad player to play as the ranger class better the he should be able to perform at this game. Simply because the guy rarely (or pretty much never) has to worry about energy.

(And hopefully I didn't state that SR is overpowered because you can use a 5 energy skill with 3 because of E. Hopefully I stated that SR, just like E, is broken because it allows for players to perform above their skill level.)

Trylo · Oct 24, 2008, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valence

I stick with my standpoint I had months ago, when a topic like this was made about expertise. A primary should never accomplish the goal better then the secondary they take, in which case you took the wrong primary. Secondaries give you utility, not a proffesion.

i agree that this would be the more logical idea, however Izzy has decided that using a primary attribute with 2ndary skills is "innovative" and shouldnt be nerfed. this can be seen throughout the life of GW and is a flaw that has never been quickly fixed.

@Numa:
if things arent dying in PvP youre doing it wrong.

you also said something about SR being OK because both teams benefit. what if one team had 2 necros while the other had 1? what if one team has 7 necros so that they can all use this mechanic? wouldnt that make one class inherently superior to every other class?

personally i think thats bad but apparently you dont.

jaximus · Oct 24, 2008, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

if things arent dying in PvP youre doing it wrong.

you also said something about SR being OK because both teams benefit. what if one team had 2 necros while the other had 1? what if one team has 7 necros so that they can all use this mechanic? wouldnt that make one class inherently superior to every other class? .

the second part sorta makes sense but, no. first off, the first part. good teams kill stuff. therefore SR would trigger. if SR was better than other primary attributes at a level which people say, wouldnt good teams use n/e to do ele things, n/me for mesmers, and so on? they dont, the reason is that other primaries make more sense with the skills and usages. every team has access to 8 necros if they want, but they choose not to.

the reason you see rangers and necros on teams together with the less experienced teams is because they feel that the benefits of SR and E help them more than the other primaries. they may use spirits to accentuate this fact, natures renewal for example, energizing wind also, perhaps quickening zephyr. so they not only are bringing certain skills to help them, they are also RESTRICTING themselves to these two professions. since shock axe is a very effective and common build, well use this for an example. a ranger could run evis and such, but no shock, which is a very important part of the bar. a ranger could run shock, but wait, no more evis, and shock with a bow? nah.

people forget that to 'abuse' expertise and soul reaping which are so 'broken,' they have to limit themselves to skill choices/secondary combinations. this inherently balances them, no?

Tyla · Oct 24, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by valence

snip

QFT inside-out. This post made my day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

if things arent dying in PvP youre doing it wrong.

Spikes don't always go through, and depending on how good both teams are Soul Reaping gets its efficiency. If the team on the other side is terribad, SR is "broken", if the team is fairly decent, it heaily loses efficiency.