Curse

Tyla · Dec 18, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

No, Necromancers (Soul Reaping) and Elementalists (Ether Renewal) are gods of energy management.

upier · Dec 18, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

CoP isnt anymore overpowered than any of the other PvE skills..

I see PvE skills on the same level as 3 buffed elite skills that you have on your bar..Compared to ursan, CoP is nothing. It does require a decent team to pull it off effectively. And lets not start the gimmick row again... PvE is supposed to be fun, before anybody starts the "Its noob" "Its easy" "OMG MOAR MELEEEE"

Bringing a mesmer team adds flexability, and any half experienced player can manage energy.. mesmers are GODS of energy management. And no, Energy management is NOT Rolling E/ME dumping 16 into energy storage and pinging how high your energy goes. It should never be a problem.

Mesmers have been laughed at in PvE for 3 and a half years... Give us a break

If you need something as obscenely overpowered as CoP to not be laughed at in PvE - L2P.

Let's be honest - people don't want a CoP nerf because it would ruin their farming builds. And that gets no love from me.

Ultima pyromancer · Dec 18, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you need something as obscenely overpowered as CoP to not be laughed at in PvE - L2P.

Let's be honest - people don't want a CoP nerf because it would ruin their farming builds. And that gets no love from me.

People will ALWAYS think of mesmers as useless in PvE. Its been this way since release. So no matter what a mesmers skill bar, People aren't going to accept that mesmers dominate in PvE. Look at how VoR can rip through most mobs.

If you look back at the dev update notes since 2006, there have been many attempts to make mesmers a better choice for PvE, and now its a mesmer skill that people are complaining is overpowered.

I liked your L2P comment and how stupid it is. When was the last time you tried to get into a group as a mesmer in a non guild group? Even now when Me/X is arguably the better option for a cryer, people still dont take them.

So go ahead and load a "Non-Overpowered" build. Advertise in DoA or Toa even mesmer LFG... Lets see how many responses and invites you get.

Tyla · Dec 19, 2008, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

Look at how VoR can rip through most mobs.

It's a shame that the Curses skill line do more for you than VoR. SS is stronger and in a far more accessable attribute line.

Arkantos · Dec 19, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

CoP is fine the way it is. Mesmers are an amazing class to play both in PvE and PvP. Leave us alone.

I'm sure it's been said a million times why CoP isn't fine the way it is. Then again you were probably one of the people who thought ursan was fine, so you most likely won't understand.

Quote:

CoP isnt anymore overpowered than any of the other PvE skills..

[intensity][vampirism][elemental lord][triple shot][ether nightmare][selfless spirit][shadow sanctuary][signet of corruption][summon spirits][mental block][summon ice imp][summon mursaat][summon naga shaman][technobabble][smooth criminal][radiation field][mindbender]["By Ural's Hammer!"]["Dodge This!"]["Don't Trip!"][Alkar's Alchemical Acid]

I could go on, but you get the point. Please explain to me how all these skills are as powerful as cry of pain.

the savage nornbear · Dec 19, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

[[Cry of pain] should be changed to encourage more skillful play. Maybe have the damage only trigger on an interrupt? At least make it require more skillful placement than the current "nook shit" mentality that is running rampant across PvE.

Ultima pyromancer · Dec 19, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Had those skills existed without being PvE only, half of them would be elite. Theres a reason they are limited to 3 per bar - they were created to be better than normal skills.

Why does it bother you if cop is around anyways? its been in the game long enough, but because people are making money out of it you dont like it?

The only solution i can think of without either forcing people to role mesmer or completley killing the skill, is by making it an elite pve skill..

Either way i will still use my mesmer to great effect, regardless of the status of CoP

so /not signed purely because i dont believe in making people re roll to mesmer.

out

Tyla · Dec 19, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

Had those skills existed without being PvE only, half of them would be elite. Theres a reason they are limited to 3 per bar - they were created to be better than normal skills.

None of those skills should even be elite, let alone PvE-only.

Quote:

Why does it bother you if cop is around anyways? its been in the game long enough, but because people are making money out of it you dont like it?

In-game economy is bad anyway; if I wanted to make money in quick succession, I'd Cryway and roll my face on the keyboard.

"Getting over it" doesn't mean the problem's gone. You can ignore absolutely everything but the problem is always present.

Quote:

The only solution i can think of without either forcing people to role mesmer or completley killing the skill, is by making it an elite pve skill..

That won't change anything but taking away the elite. This only harms Ether Renewal cryers and AP Cryers.

kostolomac · Dec 19, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by the savage nornbear

[[Cry of pain] should be changed to encourage more skillful play. Maybe have the damage only trigger on an interrupt? At least make it require more skillful placement than the current "nook shit" mentality that is running rampant across PvE.

From all the overpowered mindless skills (SY! , TnTF! and more) it seems that the whole GWguru community wants to nerf CoP and make it more "skillful" to use. While we're at it , let's make SY! affect only on people below 50% health , the same with TnTF!.

Quote:

Let's be honest - people don't want a CoP nerf because it would ruin their farming builds. And that gets no love from me.

I don't farm.

Another suggestion: nerf or "fix" all the overpowered shit that's running rampart in pve , not just selective nerfs.

Mangione · Dec 19, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upier

My point rather was that [...]

I understood your point, and I agree with you.
I see that it wasn't clear from my words, please bear with me, since I'm not a native English speaker, I'll try to do better.

Anyway, I read your post "Do you like CoP?" and I found some interesting insights on the skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Puppeteer

yes - I think it's fair that a primary water ele is better then a water mesmer

You are answering the wrong question.
By quoting just chunks of my opening post you completely altered the meaning of the message.
The complaint is not about the obvious you are stating, I will try to reword it for you, maybe I didn't express myself very well (English is not my main language):

"Is it fair that secondary mesmers are on the same level than primary mesmers when it comes to a skill like CoP? This while many other skills (SF, TNTF, etc...) are nerfed to be used effectively ONLY by their primary?"

Since you mention N/Rt, I will point out that it is Soul Reaping that is broken. With a mm you can fuel any kind of caster N/X without worrying much about energy.
For example I use sometimes for vanquishing a N/Mo that has no energy problems, or a N/El hybrid curser-warder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

Bringing a mesmer team adds flexability, and any half experienced player can manage energy.. mesmers are GODS of energy management. And no, Energy management is NOT Rolling E/ME dumping 16 into energy storage and pinging how high your energy goes. It should never be a problem.

The issue isn't energy management, and no one here is doubting the value of mesmers.

I would point your own words : "Bringing a mesmer team adds flexability".
Yep, you are right, but the fact is that it isn't required a mesmer to run efficiently CoP. El/Me or N/Me can use it the same way a Me/X could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

Mesmers have been laughed at in PvE for 3 and a half years... Give us a break

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

Even now when Me/X is arguably the better option for a cryer, people still dont take them.

And they still are being laughed at. By inexperienced players.
CoP doesn't change that, since any other class can use it.

Ask yourself why people still don't take mesmers, if CoP is so powerful.
I'll suggest you to check the answer in the fact that CoP is no different from Asuran, Norn or Ebon Vanguard PVE skills: it is class-indipendent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

If you look back at the dev update notes since 2006, there have been many attempts to make mesmers a better choice for PvE, and now its a mesmer skill that people are complaining is overpowered.

The change proposed in the opening post would be to make it Fast Casting dependent, so that CoP would be MORE effective when used by Me/X than when used by X/Me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

so /not signed purely because i dont believe in making people re roll to mesmer.

Then why should I re-roll to Paragon if I want to use TNTF?
Why should I re-roll to Assassin if I want to use SF?

upier · Dec 19, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

People will ALWAYS think of mesmers as useless in PvE. Its been this way since release. So no matter what a mesmers skill bar, People aren't going to accept that mesmers dominate in PvE. Look at how VoR can rip through most mobs.

If you look back at the dev update notes since 2006, there have been many attempts to make mesmers a better choice for PvE, and now its a mesmer skill that people are complaining is overpowered.

I liked your L2P comment and how stupid it is. When was the last time you tried to get into a group as a mesmer in a non guild group? Even now when Me/X is arguably the better option for a cryer, people still dont take them.

So go ahead and load a "Non-Overpowered" build. Advertise in DoA or Toa even mesmer LFG... Lets see how many responses and invites you get.

I don't remember when was the last time I got into a team on my ritualist.
I don't remember when was the last time I got into a team on my necro.
I don't remember when was the last time I got into a team on my warrior.
I don't remember when was the last time I got into a team on my ranger.
I don't remember when was the last time I got into a team on my ele.
But that was because partying does not exist in GW rather then because of class hate.
(And the stupidity of "L2P" was the point. It adds injury to insult.)

You have 8 party slots and 10 classes.
That alone means that that 2 classes will be left out of parties.
Then you add the fact that you can run multiple guys of a single class - and that leaves even more people in tears.
The mesmers aren't the best PvE option. They aren't even among the best.
But because of how poorly PvE is built - they do fine. You don't need the best option to win PvE. You just don't need to fail too much!

And you seem to be confusing farming with playing. People don't play though the areas you listed - they farm them. And for farming builds you want a specific team build. And for that you want the best options. Because the point of farming is to achieve the goal of choice as fast as possible. People don't run a charity there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I don't farm.

And it's because of that your mesmer would do absolutely fine in a world without CoP. You'll still be able to play and enjoy PvE.
Nothing would change.
The only mesmer that wouldn't be fine is the farming mesmer. And that I do not care about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Another suggestion: nerf or "fix" all the overpowered shit that's running rampart in pve , not just selective nerfs.

Actually fixing PvE in such a matter that there would actually be no reason for the crappy PvE skills to exist would be even better.
Still, killing off SY, TNTF along with CoP is a good way to go!

the_jos · Dec 19, 2008, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And you seem to be confusing farming with playing. People don't play though the areas you listed - they farm them. And for farming builds you want a specific team build. And for that you want the best options. Because the point of farming is to achieve the goal of choice as fast as possible. People don't run a charity there.

.....

And it's because of that your mesmer would do absolutely fine in a world without CoP. You'll still be able to play and enjoy PvE.
Nothing would change.
The only mesmer that wouldn't be fine is the farming mesmer. And that I do not care about.

I fully agree with you Upier.
When we play (not farm) an area all classes are welcome to join at first.
When players ask which team build we are using they get the reply 'randomway'.
It works, as long as someone keeps track of certain roles that need to be filled. Not as efficient as a farming build but then, it's a game, not work.

My proposal for a change to the skill.
Make it remove one mesmer hex from each foe that is hit and do damage next.
Players would need to stack hexes for multiple cries, but it enables some fun possibilities with Web of Disruption or Phantom Pain.

Ultima pyromancer · Dec 19, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

The reason i run CoP in places like urgoz/DoA is because its fun. The only fun i find in the game now is doing guild runs, where we have a laugh and get through things with relative ease.

It has nothing to do with money. And even if it did, what does money buy in this game? a nice looking weapon and that is it. If people were getting uber leet swords that did +1000 unconditional damage, then fair enough. But as this game is not about gear, who cares is some noob gets a shiney looking sword?

People have fun in different ways obviously, but this is my way of having fun. It doesnt hurt anybody, and im sure the majority of players dislike PvE skills and the fact that anything can steamroll in PvE.. But as this game is not about gear or whatever, theres no point in taking PvE so seriously. PvE is at best a break from PvP. Its not necessary to step foot outside of the battle isle if you really want a challenge or balance (well as close to balance as we have)

And that is reason many others do PvE.

Also the fact that somebody realised how efficient CoP could be and decided to stick "Way" on the end of it and posted it on PvX doesnt change a thing. Just because people are using it more often now doesnt change anything either. If it got nerfed.. there would always be another build.. They have been trying to balance this game since its been released and how far have they got?

PvP - people using the same meta builds
PvE - people using the same meta builds

and thats how its going to end up with a skillbar limited to 8 skills, people are obviously going to use the most efficient bar.. It would be stupid not to.

Tyla · Dec 19, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

A meta that doesn't change brings the assuption the developers don't give a shit. The same thing goes for turning every skill in the game into an obscenely overpowered skill, with no nerfing to keep it a little balanced, unless ofcourse you feel that a 1000000 (let's say Wounding Strike, cheap and spammable) and a 1000000 mitigation skill(i.e buff RoF to insanity) are balanced.

Zera Fang · Dec 19, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

-Yawn- Leave mesmer skills alone. The Developers have shown they are utterly incompetent when reworking them and I'd rather not have my secondary damage/unconditional interupt nerfed because you people have sticks where they shouldn't be.

romeus petrus · Dec 19, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Since logical discussion with some of you is a practice in futility I will keep it simple for your simple minds, why don't you go play the damn game whichever way you like and let others enjoy it the way they want to. Arkantos is right (for a change) I dont understand how CoP is any worse for gameplay or for the economy than say SY or TNTF. PvE skills are meant to be overpowered thats why you are only allowed 3 on your bar. Want to nerf something nerf all PvE skills; selective ignorance is a bad quality.

One of the elite areas CoP is popular in is DoA and that's hardly an overfarmed spot. When was the last time any of you whiners actually been to a full DoA HM run?

Nuff said.

FlamingMetroid · Dec 19, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

When was the last time any of you whiners actually been to a full DoA HM run?

For a lot posters on this board, probably either a while back before PvE skills saw such widespread abuse and they still played Guild Wars or never because they came to realize how broken PvE was and quit before they thought about trying to do it.

romeus petrus · Dec 19, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

For a lot posters on this board, probably either a while back before PvE skills saw such widespread abuse and they still played Guild Wars or never because they came to realize how broken PvE was and quit before they thought about trying to do it.

Same here, I have been clearing DoA in NM and HM since it came out, but you dont see me whining about clearing it now in 1-1.5h as opposed to 8h.

Improvavel · Dec 19, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

The differences between SY/TnTF and CoP are simple:

- 1 allows to kill faster than anything else, the others don't;

- 1 limits team builds, the others don't.

While CoP ins't as bad as ursan was (Ursan replaced profession variety), the only team play it nurtures for is cast a mesmer hex and have a tank ball everyone.

Save yourselves is undoubtedly strong and powerful, but mostly was introduced to replace the nerfs on passive defense introduced because of PvP play (at the time pvp-only version of skills was heretic). Skills like defensive anthem, original "Incoming" and old "watch yourselves" would be enough to cover most defensive problems in PvE HM.

Tyla · Dec 19, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeus petrus

Same here, I have been clearing DoA in NM and HM since it came out, but you dont see me whining about clearing it now in 1-1.5h as opposed to 8h.

I don't think anyone is "whining" about either the economy or the speed of which you can clear. Moreso the idiotic ease of the usage, and the offensive power of the skill itself.

Although an offensive skill will be worse than a defensive skill balance-wise, I don't see SY not being a nerf candidate either way though.