Curse

Charlotte the Harlot · Dec 28, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

keep in mind these items are not "unlocked" you pay 1 time for a 1 time skin cant remake on that char or anything. When it was first implemented it was nice that pvpers could get stuff, now we have z keys and the amount of rps it takes to make the money to buy that weapon and give it to a pvp char is significantly less in 99% of cases than to buy one on your own through talkano.

It doesn't really help you circumvent pve since you can just as easily buy one and put it on your pvp char, it doesn't reward you since you get a significantly better deal with z keys, it has virtually no purpose.

Unless you want to get a canthan machete (which is I believe the only currently obtainable pvp exclusive) the system is pointless. It needs to be changed to either have significantly lower requirements or make it unlock per account and allow you to make as many as you like (izzy has stated option 2 was considered but was too much work)

upier · Dec 28, 2008, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

I'm normally pretty good at talking to a brick wall, but I think I'll still pass as others did.

I don't think Upier realized that PvP chars can't go to PvE areas though.

That's kinda one of the reasons why one is overpaying for the items isn't it? I mean - I stated that a few times already.
I want to buy Canthan 15k but I don't want to complete Factions to obtain it. That means I shouldn't be able to obtain it.
The same way that one can only gain RPs if one does ATs. Or the same way that one can only gain the Tigger if one wins at HA. Or the same way that one can't obtain a silly ass title if one doesn't open chests, does bonuses, whatever. The game is designed on excluding people from content that they can't "pay" for (either though gold, progress though the game, whatever ...).
So if one wants to PvP on a guy in 15k Canthan armour - one should make a PvE guy and take him though Factions and buy the set.
A.Net did something VERY nice and they enabled people who REALLY don't want to do that, to still have the option of buying it.
And one pays extra for it.

If one values a cheap price more - one will have to suck it up and do PvE.
If one values the freedom to not do PvE more - one will just have to pay more.
Much better then not even having access to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlotte the Harlot

It doesn't really help you circumvent pve since you can just as easily buy one and put it on your pvp char, it doesn't reward you since you get a significantly better deal with z keys, it has virtually no purpose.

I don't see how it does not help you bypass PvE?
One wants a 15k armour set?
Well, one doesn't need to create a PvE character and take him though PvE to obtain it now.
One wants a weapon?
One doesn't need to check what is available on the market. One just crafts it.
(One CAN check and obtain it cheaper that way. But if no-one is selling it - one can still obtain it by crafting it. One can't do that outside of the reward system.)

lutz · Dec 28, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's kinda one of the reasons why one is overpaying for the items isn't it? I mean - I stated that a few times already.
I want to buy Canthan 15k but I don't want to complete Factions to obtain it. That means I shouldn't be able to obtain it.
The same way that one can only gain RPs if one does ATs. Or the same way that one can only gain the Tigger if one wins at HA. Or the same way that one can't obtain a silly ass title if one doesn't open chests, does bonuses, whatever. The game is designed on excluding people from content that they can't "pay" for (either though gold, progress though the game, whatever ...).
So if one wants to PvP on a guy in 15k Canthan armour - one should make a PvE guy and take him though Factions and buy the set.
A.Net did something VERY nice and they enabled people who REALLY don't want to do that, to still have the option of buying it.
And one pays extra for it.

If one values a cheap price more - one will have to suck it up and do PvE.
If one values the freedom to not do PvE more - one will just have to pay more.
Much better then not even having access to it.

I don't see how it does not help you bypass PvE?
One wants a 15k armour set?
Well, one doesn't need to create a PvE character and take him though PvE to obtain it now.
One wants a weapon?
One doesn't need to check what is available on the market. One just crafts it.
(One CAN check and obtain it cheaper that way. But if no-one is selling it - one can still obtain it by crafting it. One can't do that outside of the reward system.)

From your posts, I can safely deduce that you have probably never PvPed before and just play against AI all day. Fun stuff.

Empress Amarox · Dec 29, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I don't see how it does not help you bypass PvE?
One wants a 15k armour set?
Well, one doesn't need to create a PvE character and take him though PvE to obtain it now.
One wants a weapon?
One doesn't need to check what is available on the market. One just crafts it.
(One CAN check and obtain it cheaper that way. But if no-one is selling it - one can still obtain it by crafting it. One can't do that outside of the reward system.)

The difference is: content.

Log on with your favorite PvE character, hit "m." Take a look around, you have access to all of that, if you own all four games, way more than all you can see even, even with zooming out and moving the map around.

Now, make a PvP character, hit "m." There is your content.

You have your guild hall, random arenas, team arenas, heroes ascent, a room to test stuff and some Zaishen crap nobody cares about. No, most of it isn't very pretty.

Now here's the kicker... With a PvE character you get access to the PvE content and the PvP content. The PvP character however, is limited exclusively to their PvP content.

As it is, you still need a PvE character to obtain the majority of things, unless your guild name happens to be Rebel Rising, then you might have a decent chance at being able to skip PvE.

Personally, I like PvE. I think it's stupid to unlock prestige armors on a PvP character that once you delete it, the armor's gone forever. When I'm not PvPing, I'm out whoring PvE somewhere working on titles. I don't know that I could handle doing RA all day while my guild isn't GvGing.

If I could unlock additional armor sets for my PvP characters that I could make any time at the PvP equipment menu, I'd certainly do that; but not for the price that is now. It's unreasonable.

I'd rather it take like 3zkeys per piece of 15k armor to unlock -- or heck, since it'd be a global unlock, you could just double that. 6 zkeys to unlock one piece of 15k armor for any PvP character you make.

upier · Dec 29, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress Amarox

Now here's the kicker... With a PvE character you get access to the PvE content and the PvP content. The PvP character however, is limited exclusively to their PvP content.

By choice.
The real kicker is - everyone has access to PvE content if they choose to access it.
If one must obtain the rewards though the PvP reward system - it's because one refuses to obtain them though PvE (which compared to some other options, would mean that one shouldn't even be able to obtain them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

From your posts, I can safely deduce that you have probably never PvPed before and just play against AI all day. Fun stuff.

And the relevance of this deduction - had it been correct - would be ...?

Dmitri3 · Dec 29, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Oh, ffs! If you don't PvP, then you have nothing to do in this thread, cause the system is simply not made for you.

You never tried/got anything from PvP rewards, but you still claim it's "fair". Seriously, if you say it's fair, then use it. If you say it's dumb to use it, then it's dumb to use it and it should be changed.

Not everybody who uses (or wants to) PvP rewards hates PvE. PvP chars are simply better option for PvP. And no, not everybody has access to PvE either, some people just get a PvP pack.

upier · Dec 29, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Sorry for the quote wars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Oh, ffs! If you don't PvP, then you have nothing to do in this thread, cause the system is simply not made for you.

You never tried/got anything from PvP rewards, but you still claim it's "fair". Seriously, if you say it's fair, then use it. If you say it's dumb to use it, then it's dumb to use it and it should be changed.

The issue is that you fail to understand that this goes beyond PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Not everybody who uses (or wants to) PvP rewards hates PvE.

I don't hate PvP.
I just don't like it enough to waste my time getting to the Tigger.
So, why can't I obtain it?
I am not excluded for hating it - I am excluded for not liking it enough.
And some people just don't like PvE enough. (Or better yet - they don't want to waste enough time on it.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

PvP chars are simply better option for PvP.

If PvP characters operated on the same rules as PvE guys, we could argue that they deserve the same price.
Clearly, as you stated, they do not follow the same rules.
And that is why, as previously argued, it makes sense that the price is different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

And no, not everybody has access to PvE either, some people just get a PvP pack.

I actually laughed at this.
Because this is a joke, right?
(And just to be on the safe side - I am not laughing at the statement - I am laughing at it being used as an argument.)

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 01:54 AM // 01:54

No one is arguing with you any longer, maybe there's a reason to that. I hope you realize it some day, but most likely not you will not.

I wasn't trying to convince you, cause I know it's hopeless, it was just showing how your reasoning is flawed.

But anyhow, moving on, if you don't PvP, then you shouldn't talk about a system you don't know shit about, never experienced and never will. I didn't get to vote during US elections. Always© doesn't ask my opinion on their tampons and how they should improve them... All of this is global, but if you don't have any experience of it, you're no better that most of politicians.

upier · Dec 30, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

No one is arguing with you any longer, maybe there's a reason to that. I hope you realize it some day, but most likely not you will not.

I wasn't trying to convince you, cause I know it's hopeless, it was just showing how your reasoning is flawed.

But anyhow, moving on, if you don't PvP, then you shouldn't talk about a system you don't know shit about, never experienced and never will. I didn't get to vote during US elections. Always© doesn't ask my opinion on their tampons and how they should improve them... All of this is global, but if you don't have any experience of it, you're no better that most of politicians.

A rare item is defined by it's limited supply.
What the PvP reward system does is bypass the supply limitation. One is able to craft rare items on demand.
Who are you going to sell you lovely HoH-dropped CS if people are able to craft their own with the stats that they want?

That's why it goes beyond PvP. And it's amazing that people are so shortsighted that they can't see this.

Bowstring Badass · Dec 30, 2008, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Just use a PvE character if you want to look nice. Far less gameplay involved.

Besides if you waste your reward points making a PvP look good you just basically locked a character slot.

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A rare item is defined by it's limited supply.
What the PvP reward system does is bypass the supply limitation. One is able to craft rare items on demand.
Who are you going to sell you lovely HoH-dropped CS if people are able to craft their own with the stats that they want?

That's why it goes beyond PvP. And it's amazing that people are so shortsighted that they can't see this.

How about PvE characters? The item is also automatically customized so it has no resell value. Caster weapons don't need customization either, so buying PvE would still be a better option. As for buying "amazing" weapons that cost millions... no one in their mind would customize them anyway.

I don't see you as a long-sighted btw. Ignore what you can't answer, it's fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Just use a PvE character if you want to look nice. Far less gameplay involved.

Besides if you waste your reward points making a PvP look good you just basically locked a character slot.

Which is why the system needs to change?

P.S. I am really good at talking to brick walls. I am also very bored when I post here.

upier · Dec 30, 2008, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

How about PvE characters? The item is also automatically customized so it has no resell value.

Let's simplify.
The whole game has access to certain 5 (= a random number) items that are for sale.
The price of those items is partly influenced by the fact that there are only 5 of them.
Now imagine what happens if another 5 (= once again, another random number) of those items appear.
It doesn't matter that they can't be resold - what matters is that there aren't just 5 such items in the game. The people who wanted one of those 5 items - now have 10 items to chose from. The item isn't as rare as it used to be - thus the part of it's it's value that was defined by it's rarity MUST drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Caster weapons don't need customization either, so buying PvE would still be a better option. As for buying "amazing" weapons that cost millions... no one in their mind would customize them anyway.

So are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that a person that does high-end PvP would buy a weapon that costs millions with plans of using it and then give up on the free 20% damage bonus?
(I do understand the issue when it comes to caster swords or axes. The issue here is that we are dealing with an anomaly because the weapon isn't being used for it's primary purpose. And this is what then brings on the exception to the rule that customizing could possibly be better then not customizing. Not game mechanics-wise of course - because not customizing ALWAYS fails compared to customizing - but rather in the grand picture where one does not have unlimited founding so they are willing to sacrifice some efficiency.)

P.S. I already said that a few times already. And yet, all I get in return is the same response that I responded to with what I said above.
I think that would be the definition of a brick wall.
Oh and I am bored also and I so don't feel the need to post in one of the "What colour will you dye your hat in!??!?!?"-threads currently rampaging though Riverside.
This one at least entertains me.

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Let's simplify.
The whole game has access to certain 5 (= a random number) items that are for sale.
The price of those items is partly influenced by the fact that there are only 5 of them.
Now imagine what happens if another 5 (= once again, another random number) of those items appear.
It doesn't matter that they can't be resold - what matters is that there aren't just 5 such items in the game. The people who wanted one of those 5 items - now have 10 items to chose from. The item isn't as rare as it used to be - thus the part of it's it's value that was defined by it's rarity MUST drop.

You don't make sense because you just said it "they can't be resold", hence they can't chose from 10, only 5.

Rarity of an item isn't direct result in the price of said item. It is often linked to the fact that less rare = easier, cheaper to acquire. It is not the fact here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that a person that does high-end PvP would buy a weapon that costs millions with plans of using it and then give up on the free 20% damage bonus?
(I do understand the issue when it comes to caster swords or axes. The issue here is that we are dealing with an anomaly because the weapon isn't being used for it's primary purpose. And this is what then brings on the exception to the rule that customizing could possibly be better then not customizing. Not game mechanics-wise of course - because not customizing ALWAYS fails compared to customizing - but rather in the grand picture where one does not have unlimited founding so they are willing to sacrifice some efficiency.)

There's NO efficiency to sacrifice. If you see casters wanding something, it's for triggering Traps, Spirit Bond or RoF... unless your team REALLY doesn't have enough damage/clean spikes, wanding doesn't do much. But that won't help you either, since no damage already means a loss.

Only items worth customizing are martial weapons. Nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

P.S. I already said that a few times already. And yet, all I get in return is the same response that I responded to with what I said above.
I think that would be the definition of a brick wall.
Oh and I am bored also and I so don't feel the need to post in one of the "What colour will you dye your hat in!??!?!?"-threads currently rampaging though Riverside.
This one at least entertains me.

IMHO, my definition of a brick-wall: someone you have no hope of convincing.

Of course we're just debating for the sake of it. Some kind of sick entertainment I say...

upier · Dec 30, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

You don't make sense because you just said it "they can't be resold", hence they can't chose from 10, only 5.

The players that are able to craft PvP rewards bypass supply.
That results is an increased number of options for the demand - which has the same effect had the supply increased.
I thought that was clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Rarity of an item isn't direct result in the price of said item. It is often linked to the fact that less rare = easier, cheaper to acquire. It is not the fact here.

I argued that the item's price is influenced by the item's rarity - not whatever you are trying to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

There's NO efficiency to sacrifice. If you see casters wanding something, it's for triggering Traps, Spirit Bond or RoF... unless your team REALLY doesn't have enough damage/clean spikes, wanding doesn't do much. But that won't help you either, since no damage already means a loss.

Only items worth customizing are martial weapons. Nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ight=customize

What you are arguing would make some really prominent PvP players - REALLY wrong.

Dmitri3 · Dec 30, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The players that are able to craft PvP rewards bypass supply.
That results is an increased number of options for the demand - which has the same effect had the supply increased.
I thought that was clear.

No, it doesn't. PvE and PvP versions of same item work as different items in this scenario. But it was already discussed earlier in this thread, so there's not much point in elaborating.
Besides, supply is still limited by RP's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I argued that the item's price is influenced by the item's rarity - not whatever you are trying to say.

I argue that it's not. It's pretty simply: if you can acquire it for cheaper, you will. If you can't, no deal.
Rarity has nothing to do with it, it's availability that determines the price. Just ask how much water can cost in a desert.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What you are arguing would make some really prominent PvP players - REALLY wrong.

Maybe you should re-read the thread. Staves/wands gain virtually no advantage from customizing. Same with shields (and you can only get req. 9 in PvP) and off-hands.

EDIT: EDIT: Please don't try to point to another thread as an argument since you're already biased.

Charlotte the Harlot · Dec 31, 2008, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

I don't see how it does not help you bypass PvE?
One wants a 15k armour set?
Well, one doesn't need to create a PvE character and take him though PvE to obtain it now.
One wants a weapon?
One doesn't need to check what is available on the market. One just crafts it.
(One CAN check and obtain it cheaper that way. But if no-one is selling it - one can still obtain it by crafting it. One can't do that outside of the reward system.)

I was talking about weapons in the part you quoted, armor isn't as bad. Your argument of not having to buy the weapon off someone is a bit of a stretch the vast majority of the time you can fairly easily obtain the weapon you want at a significantly lower price.