Curse

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

See, here's the problem with your logic. You assume people have unlimited access to Reward Points. They don't. If someone enjoys HA, AB or any non-GvG, non-HB form of PvP, he can't get those points other way than by predictions. Which yield a max of 100 points.

Here's another biased scenario:

1. You can't craft because you are 10 RPs short. You can't just go out of town and kill monsters, as you would do when you lack 10k gold. Because 10 RP = 10k.

2. You can always buy a thing because if you overprice it, you will find 5 sellers. Say you want a req 9 Elemental Sword perf, +30 hp zealous 15^50. How much it's worth in PvE? 100k + 20 ectos? Okay, you get your RPs, convert them to zkeys, then to money. You leave 100k, convert the rest to ectoes and you can give a WTB 100k + 50e. And you save a fortune.

You can't buy PvP weapon if you lack even 1rp. You must have equal or more than it to get the weapon.

I noticed nice thing about your posts.

You always give a PERFECT scenario to prove your point.

Because there is no way you might be wrong.

Also, re-read the OP. Because you are missing the point.

Vanity items.
Some people just won't have them.
Or should all PvE armours cost 1k?
(Don't get me wrong - I'd LOVE that! But like I said - just because you want something - doesn't mean it should happen.)

We are dealing with people who refuse to PvE and do not want to look for bargains.
You want it cheap?
Create a PvE character, get him though the chapters and buy the stuff you want. Go find a bargain on the weapon you want.
You don't like that?
Well, pre-PvP rewards you were out of luck. If you wanted PvE vanity crap - you had to do PvE.
Now - you can just massively overpay for it. BUT at least you have access to it.
And there are people that consider this to be worth it. The OP just isn't one of them.

Like I said - the price makes sense.
But it's up to each individual to decide how much they want it.
Z-Keys here I come!

RotteN · Dec 25, 2008, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And there are people that consider this to be worth it. The OP just isn't one of them.

And that's where your train of thought derailed and crashed into a group of toddlers.

Most people that are able to get these vast numbers of reward points already have PvE characters of their usual professions. Why keep a system that gets barely used ? The only reason to use a PvP character tuned with reward points over the PvE character,, would be because they're easier to adjust to new builds/meta (because you can swap around insignia's, runes, inscriptions and mods at will). Quite a poor advantage for such an insane price.

Right now you're better off actually buying PvE weapons for your PvP toons instead of using the PvP system. That sounds pretty stupid imo.

Simple mathematics prove the current lay-out of the reward system is more or less flawed. The costs far outweigh other options. Reviewing this isn't such an odd request.

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

And that's where your train of thought derailed and crashed into a group of toddlers.

Most people that are able to get these vast numbers of reward points already have PvE characters of their usual professions. Why keep a system that gets barely used ? The only reason to use a PvP character tuned with reward points over the PvE character,, would be because they're easier to adjust to new builds/meta (because you can swap around insignia's, runes, inscriptions and mods at will). Quite a poor advantage for such an insane price.

Right now you're better off actually buying PvE weapons for your PvP toons instead of using the PvP system. That sounds pretty stupid imo.

Simple mathematics prove the current lay-out of the reward system is more or less flawed. The costs far outweigh other options. Reviewing this isn't such an odd request.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...49&postcount=1
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=83
I am guessing these guys are PvP guys.
(You also have people in this thread that don't mind it.)

You want a reasonable price?
Implement the supply and demand system. You can only buy a weapon with the Tormy skin from Tolkano if someone else sells his Tormy weapon to him. Make it so that you can only craft the Willy-skinned staff with Willcrusher stats.
Pay for each Sup Vigor you add to your set.
Pay for each dye you use.
Demand that you need to obtain all the unlocked skills again for each PvP character.

Then it makes perfect sense that the cost of PvP rewards would equal the cost of PvE rewards. Well, it would need to be a bit more expensive since we need to consider the amount of time one wastes in having to reach ... for instance ... Cavalon to be able to craft Luxon armour.

But don't expect for the price to match or be comparable if you are able to bypass the rules that control obtaining said items in PvE.

Abedeus · Dec 25, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Okay, other thing why PvP Rewards =/= PvE Rewards.

TIME

How much getting 100k would take? 2 weeks? Give or take few days, depending how fast can someone farm. Also, ZKeys give a lot. And you can farm some ectoes to get the remaining price of a Torm Weapon.

And how much time would it take to make 1800 reward points? If you do only predictions and don't take part in ATs, 100 if they predict correctly everything. That means 18 months of perfect guessing. One and one half years.

And if you don't like HB or GvG, that's the only thing you can do to get PvP rewards.

Quote:

But don't expect for the price to match or be comparable if you are able to bypass the rules that control obtaining said items in PvE.

Bypassing the rules = double, maybe triple the normal price. But not 10 times bigger price...

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Okay, other thing why PvP Rewards =/= PvE Rewards.

TIME

How much getting 100k would take? 2 weeks? Give or take few days, depending how fast can someone farm. Also, ZKeys give a lot. And you can farm some ectoes to get the remaining price of a Torm Weapon.

And how much time would it take to make 1800 reward points? If you do only predictions and don't take part in ATs, 100 if they predict correctly everything. That means 18 months of perfect guessing. One and one half years.

And if you don't like HB or GvG, that's the only thing you can do to get PvP rewards.

Bypassing the rules = double, maybe triple the normal price. But not 10 times bigger price...

That's the issue then!
No wonder people think it's too expensive!
Stop sucking, get better and you'll earn more points.

I seriously don't see how you can compare a guy that does no PvP and he gains all his points through predicting with a HEAVY PvE farmer. Your comparison would make sense if you''d compare the guy who predicts with a guy that plays an hour or two per week! How long will it take for THAT PvE guy to obtain FoW or a Tormy?
2 weeks? Or a few years?

If you gain your points through predictions - you OBVIOUSLY aren't the target customer for the most high end stuff!

Dmitri3 · Dec 25, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Sorry, upier, but you just don't make any sense. Obtain some PvP rewards first, just so you can compare them without bias, then we'll talk.

Abedeus · Dec 25, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's the issue then!
No wonder people think it's too expensive!
Stop sucking, get better and you'll earn more points.

Have you actually tried unlocking something?

Quote:

I seriously don't see how you can compare a guy that does no PvP and he gains all his points through predicting with a HEAVY PvE farmer. Your comparison would make sense if you''d compare the guy who predicts with a guy that plays an hour or two per week! How long will it take for THAT PvE guy to obtain FoW or a Tormy?
2 weeks? Or a few years?

Well, you are comparing a person playing so much AT he has time to get 1800 reward points and not give up half-way thinking it's just stupid to someone sane, buying zkeys and getting items dirt cheap.

I see... When you do biased comparasments, it's good, but when someone else does it, it's bad.

Also, PvPer would get 100k in a month easily. 50k from predictions at least, a lot from Faction -> ZKey transfers and if someone HoHs/ABs, he gets faction or items from the chest.

Quote:

If you gain your points through predictions - you OBVIOUSLY aren't the target customer for the most high end stuff!

What if you play 12 hour a day in HA and ANet simply ignores you? Or you are a good player, but your guild doesn't want to play/can't play ATs?

Oh, and funny thing. You know how FoW is worth 400-500k, right? Well dig this - in PvP rewards, it's worth 1200 reward points. That's 1.200.000 gold. Only twice as much as in PvE? Why not 6kk? It would be at Tormented Shield's level.

upier · Dec 25, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Have you actually tried unlocking something?

Now, why the hell would I want to do that?
Like I said - the price makes sense - but "I" don't consider it to be worth it.
I'll get Z-keys -> money and I'll waste them on AFKing the rings!

Obtaining PvP rewards is a luxury I am not willing to pay for.
But I don't go out and throw hissy fits and start yelling that things should be cheaper because I want money and pretty outfits at the same time! (I only do that when it comes to the Tigger!)
I just accept the fact that I'll just have to run around PvP looking like I am poor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Well, you are comparing a person playing so much AT he has time to get 1800 reward points and not give up half-way thinking it's just stupid to someone sane, buying zkeys and getting items dirt cheap.

I see... When you do biased comparasments, it's good, but when someone else does it, it's bad.

Also, PvPer would get 100k in a month easily. 50k from predictions at least, a lot from Faction -> ZKey transfers and if someone HoHs/ABs, he gets faction or items from the chest.

I think I stated clearly that I was asking how long it would take for a PvE guy that does next to no PvE to obtain FoW.
That guy is a reasonable comparison to your PvP guy that does NO PvP but you still feel he should be entitled to the absolute high-end PvP rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

What if you play 12 hour a day in HA and ANet simply ignores you? Or you are a good player, but your guild doesn't want to play/can't play ATs?

Think of RPs as PvP version of PvE gold. (And I think that should be fairly easy because you have made that comparison a few times in this thread alone.)
If you aren't obtaining any RPs in PvP that equals to you not obtaining any money in PvE.
Can a PvE person with no gold obtain FoW? (Without a suggar-daddy of course.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh, and funny thing. You know how FoW is worth 400-500k, right? Well dig this - in PvP rewards, it's worth 1200 reward points. That's 1.200.000 gold. Only twice as much as in PvE? Why not 6kk? It would be at Tormented Shield's level.

So now you are complaining about that thing being too cheap?
Yeah, considering it's the most high-end PvE armour - you are right, it would make sense if it was more expensive.
I guess, the guys at A.Net were feeling generous.
The bastards!

Abedeus · Dec 26, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

I think I stated clearly that I was asking how long it would take for a PvE guy that does next to no PvE to obtain FoW.

If he's lucky/abuses SCUW/SCFoW, about a month or two.

Quote:

That guy is a reasonable comparison to your PvP guy that does NO PvP but you still feel he should be entitled to the absolute high-end PvP rewards.

Wait, so 12 hours of HA is no pvp? Then what is?

Quote:

Think of RPs as PvP version of PvE gold. (And I think that should be fairly easy because you have made that comparison a few times in this thread alone.)
If you aren't obtaining any RPs in PvP that equals to you not obtaining any money in PvE.

If RP if PvP gold, what do you do if you by accident lack 5 rps, because you predicted wrong and have to wait till your guild does another AT AND you must hope to win?

You can't just go out and farm something for 15 minutes or less. You also can't buy RPs, like you could with lack of ecto or shards.

Quote:

So now you are complaining about that thing being too cheap?
Yeah, considering it's the most high-end PvE armour - you are right, it would make sense if it was more expensive.
I guess, the guys at A.Net were feeling generous.
The bastards!

Sarcasm.

Quote:

Now, why the hell would I want to do that?

I find it... disturbing. You find the prices make sense AND are stupid/pointless at the same time and you are defending them? Decide, either you defend it and say it's fair AND you would use them (because otherwise there is something wrong with them and the alternative is 10 times better) or you say it's senseless.

Div · Dec 26, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah, now explain THAT to Upier.

Sorry, I can't argue with idiots. They'll just bring me down to their level and beat me with their experience of idiocy.

Dmitri3 · Dec 26, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

What Upier is saying is:
That anyone who doesn't do like Upier should be punished severely = People who don't want to buy skins from PvE or play with PvE chars in PvP should be charged very heavy fees.

It's either very stupid or very selfish, I can't decide.

I, for one, want to make the reward system viable and not be a money trap for stupid.

upier · Dec 26, 2008, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

If he's lucky/abuses SCUW/SCFoW, about a month or two.

Read again what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Wait, so 12 hours of HA is no pvp? Then what is?

Aspy is PvP.
Why the hell don't I have my Tigger yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

If RP if PvP gold, what do you do if you by accident lack 5 rps, because you predicted wrong and have to wait till your guild does another AT AND you must hope to win?

You can't just go out and farm something for 15 minutes or less. You also can't buy RPs, like you could with lack of ecto or shards.

You are not rich enough.
Some people just aren't supposed to have some things. And the beauty of GW is that these things are vanity things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I find it... disturbing. You find the prices make sense AND are stupid/pointless at the same time and you are defending them? Decide, either you defend it and say it's fair AND you would use them (because otherwise there is something wrong with them and the alternative is 10 times better) or you say it's senseless.

SF enables people to gain lots of gold.
That's super duper fun! I LOVE gold! It allows me to buy pretty things!
Does it make sense for it to be in the game?

FoW offers no bonuses over 1k armour.
I'd LOVE to get a set for my ritu because it's super sweet!
Does it make sense that it costs 1k?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

What Upier is saying is:
That anyone who doesn't do like Upier should be punished severely = People who don't want to buy skins from PvE or play with PvE chars in PvP should be charged very heavy fees.

It's either very stupid or very selfish, I can't decide.

I, for one, want to make the reward system viable and not be a money trap for stupid.

Fow = 1k.
Pretty please!
Tigger for everyone!
Pretty please!

If you are against it - you are very selfish or very stupid!

Dmitri3 · Dec 26, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Fow = 1k.
Pretty please!
Tigger for everyone!
Pretty please!

If you are against it - you are very selfish or very stupid!

Well, I didn't call YOU names, just your argument. Intelligent people do stupid things pretty often, just maybe less often that others. But if you want to play it like this, fine with me.

As for your example, you're trying to make your point with sarcasm... but it fails quite miserably.

Abedeus · Dec 26, 2008, 09:56 AM // 09:56

We. Are. Not. Comparing. Expensive. Armors. To. Non. Expensive. Ones.

We. Are. Comparing. The. Overwhelmingly. Overpriced. PvP. Rewards.

And. I. Feel. Like. I. Am. Talking. To. A. Brick. Wall.

Guess I'll finally take masamune's advice.

upier · Dec 26, 2008, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

Well, I didn't call YOU names, just your argument. Intelligent people do stupid things pretty often, just maybe less often that others. But if you want to play it like this, fine with me.

As for your example, you're trying to make your point with sarcasm... but it fails quite miserably.

My apologies.
As often in this thread I used the term "you" instead of "one".

That should have read "If one is against it - one is very selfish or very stupid!"

But I'll answer to the both of you:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

We. Are. Not. Comparing. Expensive. Armors. To. Non. Expensive. Ones.

We. Are. Comparing. The. Overwhelmingly. Overpriced. PvP. Rewards.

And. I. Feel. Like. I. Am. Talking. To. A. Brick. Wall.

Guess I'll finally take masamune's advice.

The game is designed on excluding certain people from obtaining certain things.
If the price would be lowered - (what Aby is suggesting - so that people who only predict would also be able to obtain the items reasonably easy) - this would not exclude enough people.
And that makes no sense.
It would be nice though. The same way as FoW costing 1k.

Aera · Dec 26, 2008, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Obtaining PvP rewards is a luxury I am not willing to pay for.
But I don't go out and throw hissy fits and start yelling that things should be cheaper because I want money and pretty outfits at the same time! (I only do that when it comes to the Tigger!)
I just accept the fact that I'll just have to run around PvP looking like I am poor.

You do realize you can just PvP with a PvE character yes? Just buy the proper equipment and done.

upier · Dec 26, 2008, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera

You do realize you can just PvP with a PvE character yes? Just buy the proper equipment and done.

You do realize you don't need to purchase the highly overpriced items through the PvP system but can buy them in PvE?

One is given a choice of obtaining PvE rewards on demand and without doing PvE. And that warrants a higher price.
One just needs to ask oneself - do I really dislike PvE to the extent that I am willing to overpay for the items?

Empress Amarox · Dec 26, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

The system right now is utterly useless. Make it global and call it a day, if nothing else (e.g. once made, you can re-make at any time: read PvP characters - meant to reroll).

The price is high enough at least that much should be granted.

upier · Dec 27, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

I simply can't believe how insanely shortsighted I was!
Tolky can be seen as the future!
Imagine implementing a PvE (!!) Tolky into Ascalon, Shing Jea and Kamadan!
You create a new character - walk up to Tolky and ask him to craft a CS for you! Or FoW! No need to walk though PvE to obtain it and no need to bid or look for the item of choice in outposts!
Of course the price would HAVE to match the PvP price (well except that you'd pay in gold rather then RPs)! You'd also have access to FREE runes, basic dye, insignias, inscriptions, mods - the same way that the PvP system works! Of course the items would then have to be customized for the user on the spot (that is - if they stay customized for PvP guys also).
Can you imagine the splash Tolky would make if the PvP (thus also the PvE Tolky's) prices were then lowered to reflect the market prices!

Now of course some critics will say that this would totally destroy the market of the items sold in such a fashion - but that's how Tolky already works.
Well, the insanely high price of items is keeping that relatively in check.

So, as hard as it is to believe this after all the bitching I did, implement a PvE Tolky and I'll GLADLY sign this!

Dmitri3 · Dec 27, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

I'm normally pretty good at talking to a brick wall, but I think I'll still pass as others did.

I don't think Upier realized that PvP chars can't go to PvE areas though.