Curse

Yawgmoth · Jun 28, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

For him to be able to receive whispers or the transaction message, the servers would need to know if he still has GW running. This means that regular "I'm still here" messages need to be sent every so often. Once you add them up over a 24/7 period and several hundred thousand people, it becomes a bandwidth use worth caring about no matter how few signals. And don't forget any chat happening in that district or people wandering around there.

Ofcourse i know about this kind of communication, but I didn't even mention it as it's not worth it. There's no real data sent this way, just tiny bits of pings, if the amount of them even doubled it wouldn't affect the performance of the servers, and don't forget that a significant number of people playing actively now (for example jumping districts and spamming alot of WTS) would instead sell in the afk mode and generate even 100x less network traffic per player this way.

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However you haven't given a reason as to why the client has any need to stay online:
- Whispers: Hes AFK, he won't be there to read them. And if he reads them later, the person who sent it will probably be offline. Besides, what kind of useful things might actually be said over it.
- Transaction notification: Just wait till he next logs in to tell him.

Don't treat the AFK as the player would have to be exactly away from his computer. In many cases (mine for sure) the player would have his game minimized doing something else at the computer, like browsing forums or other websites, doing some work... So he would be able to hear incoming whisp messages (like an offer for an item shown, either below b/o or above 100k, it's important to have this feature available) or sold item notification (sold something? put another item in the empty slot)

The reason why my solution requires the client staying online is because it's simpliest and easiest to implement, with no major changes needed. For example my original idea contained no changes to the PartySearch engine except for 1 new button. However making it work for offline players and making transaction work for offline players would probably require significant changes in the game code.

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And even if the bandwidth is negligible for ANET, the CPU usage of guild wars while its just waiting for something to happen prevents you doing other things on the computer.

So why should the seller have to remain online again ?

There's a possibility for a simple improvement, it would require creating a new state a client can be in - client offline but server side still online. It may even be not very complicated to add, as this is the state a disconnected and waiting for reconnect player is in. It would free the user's CPU from having such a massive application as GW on, but it wouldn't really be different server side (except for those minor pings). Remember that: "Gameplay servers can support 2500-3500 users each, with the main limitation being addressable memory.", and that a user with his client offline would still use server's memory resources.
This may be a viable option, close your client and all you lose is the whispers and notifications (I wouldn't believe in them creating any data structures on the servers to remember those and to send them when user comes back online). A certain user timeout would have to be in place, to prevent having everyone active 24/7.

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Server storage space is limited. Each item in a store needs to be recorded somewhere.
CPU capability is limited. Data in stores will need some precessing.
Bandwidth is probably charged per amount transfered. More items = higher costs for ANET.

Remember that items aren't stored separately, but they're either in a character BLOB or account BLOB. If you have 4 tabs in storage, it makes no difference if they are full or empty, the space is already reserved.
Bandwidth usage would be probably slightly higher if users were viewing a store with 2 items and a store with 7 items. The traffic would be only generated by active buyers (far less of them than sellers), and most of them would have the stores with nonmax crap filtered out. But if bandwidth becomes a problem, certain limitations could be set on how often can a new store be viewed by a client.

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The only people I'm aware of who are willing to buy the crap are the people who don't know how cheap the decent items are. But with this idea either they will learn of the decent items prices, or this idea doesn't work well as a trading system. If the former then we are just wasting server resources, if the latter then removing them will improve the quality of this idea as a trading system.

Just think about the wasted server resources on having huge tons of crap items drop, having them viewable for the whole party when on the ground, then picked up, processed, saved in characters BLOB, sold to merchant, etc...
I consider allowing bad items a nonissue, and a worse problem and annoyance being limitations (wtf i can't sell my 15-21 caster sword). Trust me, the vast majority of items sold in the stores would be gold, max, but still crappy. Currently even most req10 items are straight merchant food not worth the time to sell them to players, so disallow them too? I'd say that any limitations are bad, and there would be one most important limitation in place anyway - the max number of items possible to be sold.

bilateralrope · Jun 28, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

Ofcourse i know about this kind of communication, but I didn't even mention it as it's not worth it. There's no real data sent this way, just tiny bits of pings, if the amount of them even doubled it wouldn't affect the performance of the servers, and don't forget that a significant number of people playing actively now (for example jumping districts and spamming alot of WTS) would instead sell in the afk mode and generate even 100x less network traffic per player this way.

1 - How do you know how much that traffic would effect the servers when its going on 24/7. By now ANET should when they will have more players on due to an event, so they will likely schedule the server maintenance (Gaile has confirmed multiple servers, but we don't notice it as we could be switched between them at any loading screen) so that they have more up when the event occurs. So we can't use that.
2 - Having people sitting offline reduces this traffic to zero.

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Don't treat the AFK as the player would have to be exactly away from his computer. In many cases (mine for sure) the player would have his game minimized doing something else at the computer, like browsing forums or other websites, doing some work...

In my experience with Maple Story, the vast majority of the traders were off doing something else while their stall was running (usually overnight). So what game has a noticeable portion of the stall owners still at/near the computer ?

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So he would be able to hear incoming whisp messages (like an offer for an item shown, either below b/o

Many people in Guild Wars don't seem to like bartering, so these messages are likely to remain unused. But this could still be done by having some sort of in-game email system.
What if a seller receives a lot of offers while AFK, then loses his internet connection ? With the email the message remains till he logs back in.

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or above 100k, it's important to have this feature available)

Any trade improvement will need to either handle traders over 100k directly (eg remove the gold cap), or be implemented after ANET has flodded the economy enough to bring all prices under 100k.

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or sold item notification (sold something? put another item in the empty slot)

Lets say we are talking about 7 item slots here. How many items do you expect the average player to have up for sale at any time ?
Personally at the rate I find items worth selling, I'll be using 1 maybe 2 slots at a time. So how many slots do you except the average player to be using at a time ?
If they have spare slots, the notification won't help.
Besides if they are truly AFK, like I expect most players to be, they won't be able to quickly react to an item being sold anyway. I've got no objection to a notification if they are online, just to forcing people to be online for no apparent reason.

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The reason why my solution requires the client staying online is because it's simpliest and easiest to implement, with no major changes needed. For example my original idea contained no changes to the PartySearch engine except for 1 new button.

And:
- the code for the new window that button opens
- the code to distinguish stalls from regular party search messages
- making sure the party search can handle many more active entries that it is currently expected to
- the code for recording the set price, and automatically handling the trade when the other player clicks buy
- A search function to filter the hundreds of thousands of stalls that don't have anything the buyer currently wants
Making a new button is easy. Making the button actually do something is where the work comes in.

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However making it work for offline players and making transaction work for offline players would probably require significant changes in the game code.

Your already directly going into their inventory when the buyer clicks buy. All we do is remove the check to see if the seller is still online.

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There's a possibility for a simple improvement, it would require creating a new state a client can be in - client offline but server side still online. It may even be not very complicated to add, as this is the state a disconnected and waiting for reconnect player is in. It would free the user's CPU from having such a massive application as GW on, but it wouldn't really be different server side (except for those minor pings).

And what purpose would this serve that a combination of offline stalls and an in-game email system wouldn't ?

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Remember that: "Gameplay servers can support 2500-3500 users each, with the main limitation being addressable memory.",

Source ?

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and that a user with his client offline would still use server's memory resources.

Yes, but an AFKer would use more because they also need to be kept track of

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This may be a viable option, close your client and all you lose is the whispers and notifications (I wouldn't believe in them creating any data structures on the servers to remember those and to send them when user comes back online). A certain user timeout would have to be in place, to prevent having everyone active 24/7.

Considering that guild wars players don't like bartering much, what purpose would those messages even serve ?

I suppose that if the store title generation distinguished max and non-max items for the search filter it wouldn't be an issue for the players. Maybe have the weapon type number give a different number for max and non-max weapons of the same type. I concede the point of disallowing items.

Lagg · Jun 28, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Allow me to reiterate.

Your idea is brilliant. It's excellent.

No, irony is ridiculous on the internets.

There are, however, two major problems.

1. Logistically: Server capacity

I'm a regular active player, playing since May 2005 with all three campaigns on one account. I never quite saw the need to either buy a second account (or even additional player slots for that matter, but that's besides the question).

If this trading system is implemented tomorrow, I will go to the store, grab the cheapest copy of Guild Wars Prophecies I can find and turn this into a permanent afk trading account on my notebook, while I normally play the game (on my actual account) on my PC; visiting my afk trading toon from time to time with an active toon to replenish his stock of items for sale.

An afk'er takes bandwidth, if only to keep his connection alive. There's a limited number of people that can connect to a single server. Even if all of them are afk'ers taking a very small amount of actual bandwidth, the server would still only allow a given number of people, since all of them could potentially turn non-afk any second.

Hypothetically (just making up numbers here), a single server can handle 1000 active connections, or could also handle 10,000 non-active ones. Well, that server's only going to allow 1000 connections either way, since nothing forbids an afk'er to become non-afk and become an active connection.

Okay, so maybe not a bad thing, ArenaNet will sell more accounts, since everyone and his dog will have a real account and an afk trading account.

It's, however, a lot more lucrative for them if they can sell copies of other campaigns, additional character slots etcetera on the same account. Even people with several accounts can only play one account at once (unless you're a truly leet dude able to play two games at a time on a dual screen setup).

At the end of the day, ArenaNet will have to increase server capacity just to cater to all the dummy afk trading accounts. Seems expensive to me and might once again happen at the cost of network latency.

If, however, a system is implemented that allows you to simply play the game while this [Xunlai Trading Center] guy sells your items, you basically have the same infrastructural problems as setting up a full-blown Auction House. You just don't call it an Auction House.

2. Idiosyncratically: Trading is a time sink

Once you've normally played through the campaigns, Guild Wars is basically one huge timesink, keeping you busy till the next chapter, campaign, whatever.

Oh, hold your rotten tomatoes! I'm not saying it's not fun, but it's still a timesink. Every game is. The idea behind old Geedub is not being productive, it's wasting time.

Now trading is an awesome timesink. Making it so that you can afk trade your items while potentially doing other things is, well, bad for business. You're not busy playing Guild Wars. Heck, you might even stop caring about the game altogether while you're having fun playing another game. Not good.

Anyway, you guys were on the right track and I already read quite a few good ideas in this thread.

How to realistically improve trading:

A trading outpost.

Seriously, I cannot believe this does not exist.

When Factions was first released, I thought The Marketplace had been made specifically for this purpose. Apparently not. Right now, I'm still not sure whether the best place to go sell my stuff is Kamadan ed1, Kaineng ed1 or whatever.

Best bet would be to have a Xunlai Trade Center.

ZOMG HEAD ASPLODE!!

Yup, call it a Xunlai Trade Center. A separate outpost on the Battle Isles.

Simple as that.
Get rid of the Trade Channel and Trade in Party Search everywhere except in the Xunlai Trade Center.

Radical, but should work.

If someone types in WTS/WTB in Local, he gets a friendly green message to go and visit the Xunlai Trade center on the Battle Isles. You can still freely try and sell things in Whisper, Team, Guild or Alliance.
Item preview in the Party Search window in the Xunlai Trade Center.

Same way as with Template preview, but you could open up your Trade Window by yourself and Ctrl-click it to the Party Search window (viewable in all districts of the Xunlai Trade Center) with a 31 character description.

This would only work in this outpost (and also in Whisper, Team, Guild and Alliance chat, anywhere).

What does this amount to:

Centralized trading center.

No more going to different cities on different continents to try and buy or sell something.
Trade spamming completely and utterly gone from other outposts, forever.

Kamadan ed1 would be full of, well, players. Like, playing the game. Not tradespammers.
People actually using Party Search for trading.

Well, at least in the Xunlai Trade Center.
No afk trading, so no extra resources for ArenaNet.

Just one extra outpost and a way to ping your self-opened Trade window to the Trade Party Search in the Xunlai Trade Center.

Trading will still be an active timesink.

Tada!

P.S. On second thought, don't call it a Xunlai Trading Center.

Um, Xunlai Trading Co-- no...

Xunlai Trading Post?

Xunlai Exchange?

Xunlai Flea Market?

You'll figure out something.

Ariena Najea · Jun 28, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

/signed

This is a terrific idea that would help cut down on all the random trade chatter xD

Ariena Najea · Jun 28, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

/signed

This is a terrific idea that would help cut down on all the random trade chatter xD

Darksun · Jun 28, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

It's true they need to make trading more accessible with the new focus on items for income. This idea is not bad, tho I think they could add a few more features. Hope they consider this!
/signed

Tarun · Jun 28, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Great idea, and I'd sign for it. Problem is, like all great ideas, ANet will just say no and make excuses that they might add it, then a few years later back out of it.

Anyone notice yet that the best ideas that got added were the easiest to add? Yet the best ideas that should be added (Auction House/Player Merchant Shops, /favor, colors on compass for guild members, etc.) were never added? Funny thing is, there are free games out there (Last Chaos anyone?) that have added pretty much all of those things and more.

bilateralrope · Jun 29, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Anyone notice yet that the best ideas that got added were the easiest to add?

Except for adding more NPC traders (for things like weapon mods, inscriptions, tomes, etc) which should be easy to add because they are already coded, and just need adapting to different items.

scrinner · Jun 29, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

So.. who wants to be the lucky guy to send a Pm to Gaile asking her to specifically forwards this thread to a dev?

Seriously though This idea combined with a trading outpost would be really awesome. That way we can shove all sellers into one area. And no this will not waste bandwith (Without the XTC anyways) Since its already happening in Keining, Kamadan, La Districts One.

Yawgmoth · Jun 29, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

@ bilateralrope :

I see you haven't been much into GW ingame trading. If you did, you would know that a majority of players DO like to barter and keep doing it. The vocal minority on forums saying that they don't, says so because they're against the rude behavior of some sellers in game, and that's the reason why such threads appear.

Even if an average player wouldn't fill all the slots for sale and might even be selling only one or 2 items, a notification about selling the LAST one item is even more important than selling one of many.

I trade a lot, in the past I AFK wts'ed with the help of a simple macro, now often AFK selling with the use of the primitive PartySearch, and I must say that being able to read potential buyer's whispers, comments about the price, or alternative offers is already extremelly valuable. It would be even more so if buyers were able to look at more items.
I know that a disconnection would mean losing those whisp messages, but it's the same right now and nobody complains.

While an ingame email system would be nice, I think it's too big an addition to be worth the work on it. It would be an entirely new thing, enirely new data structure and server storage space needed. Probably even separate servers would need to be run to do it (like a friend list server, guild membership server or the PartySearch server)

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And:
- the code for the new window that button opens
- the code to distinguish stalls from regular party search messages
- making sure the party search can handle many more active entries that it is currently expected to
- the code for recording the set price, and automatically handling the trade when the other player clicks buy
- A search function to filter the hundreds of thousands of stalls that don't have anything the buyer currently wants
Making a new button is easy. Making the button actually do something is where the work comes in.

These things are the backbone of the system and of course would have to be done for it to work. Maybe with an exception of the search functions which are (nice) improvements on the system.

And a source of my info on GW server capacity - these 3 short articles are a must-read for anyone trying to 'invent' something to be done for GW1:
The Database Technology of Guild Wars
The Technology of Guild Wars
Guild Wars Game Notes

@ Lagg :

[1. Logistically: Server capacity]

So you're basically saying that making a better game, which will sell more copies is bad because it may affect the performance of the servers. So wrong.

Do I really have to explain why more copies sold would be better for them? That it's in fact their goal...

And don't forget that an afk player generates much less network traffic than actively playing. And buying a copy you buy the right to play it, actively play using up to those 2kb/s.

If they really cared about how many hours an account is online and wanted it to be minimum, wanted players to finish the game once and put it on the shelf and wait for next campagin, GW would be a completely different game.

Here comes info that may shock you: They want players actively playing their game!! It was confirmed multiple times by Gaile and in other interviws, and obvious evidences for that are weekend events, introduction of hard mode, having all those titles that require THOUSANDS of hours grinding...

And i repeat that actively playing generates far more server power usage than afk selling.

[2. Idiosyncratically: Trading is a time sink]

This is so wrong it can't be worse. It certainly wasn't a design decision to have trading as a time sink. It's just a necessity coming from the lack of better solutions.

In fact GW was made according to a rule of having NO timesinks at all, just fun gameplay. They just forgot about importance of a trading system back in the earliest design decisions. (remember when there wasn't even a trade channel? you should)

And your 'improvements' ideas are completelly missed, like:

*Separate Trading Outpost

I, as a seller, am absolutely certain I wouldn't want something like it in game.
It's best to sell where the buyers are, and I know for sure that buyers aren't always in the biggest towns because they want to buy something.
The international districts of Temple of Balthazar were predicted to become the new universal trading place but we know it didn't happen, no trading there except finalising deals from forums.

further disadvantages of this idea:
-having to design a whole new outpost - it would be new free content, requiring work of level designers and graphics people.
-going there, and more importantly FROM there would require another annoying map jump,

And the most important:
-it wouldn't improve anything!!!
Yes, seriously, it would be just 7-15 districts full of spam, everything we already got spread around 3 big cities.
And there would be no reason to go there for anyone, unless...

*Get rid of the Trade Channel and Trade in Party Search everywhere except in the Xunlai Trade Center.

Absolutely Awful idea. Would get hated by huge masses.

If you don't like traders in the big towns just turn off the trade chat! You won't notice them. You can also close the trading section of party search if you don't want to see it in Kamadan.

All you suggest aren't improvements but very serious major NERFS to trading!
Give them nothing useful but instead take away what they got? Horrible ideas...

*Item preview in the Party Search window in the Xunlai Trade Center.

Finally an improvement, but quite small, obviously not worth all the nerfs above.
However it would be very nice if it worked in any town, if it was just an improvement to what we got now. It's like a half of my original idea but without the best part, passive selling.
When one of the biggest reasons of improving trading is saving the time otherwise wasted on active selling, your idea doesn't help here.

And what's wrong with the name? Got a better one? I think it's good enough.

Seriously, Lagg, this isn't a contest on how to make trading even WORSE, so you probably opened a wrong thread.

Xiaro · Jun 29, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Awesome idea. I'd love to see something like this put into the game!

Lagg · Jun 29, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

@ Lagg :

[1. Logistically: Server capacity]

So you're basically saying that making a better game, which will sell more copies is bad because it may affect the performance of the servers. So wrong.

Do I really have to explain why more copies sold would be better for them? That it's in fact their goal...

And don't forget that an afk player generates much less network traffic than actively playing. And buying a copy you buy the right to play it, actively play using up to those 2kb/s.

If they really cared about how many hours an account is online and wanted it to be minimum, wanted players to finish the game once and put it on the shelf and wait for next campagin, GW would be a completely different game.

Here comes info that may shock you: They want players actively playing their game!! It was confirmed multiple times by Gaile and in other interviws, and obvious evidences for that are weekend events, introduction of hard mode, having all those titles that require THOUSANDS of hours grinding...

And i repeat that actively playing generates far more server power usage than afk selling.

As I said before, they'd much rather have you buy 7 accounts, just for storage, each used separately (never more than 1 account online) than see everyone have 1 active account which they're playing and 1 afk account online all the time.

No matter whether the afk is using up 2kb/s or 10kb/s, he's still using up a server slot, which means ArenaNet will have to buy additional servers, simply because of the huge number of afk accounts.

So yes, they want players actively playing their game. They just don't want players to actively play their game on one account while another account is also online afk trading.

And even if they do want it, then it's going to come at the cost of network latency.

Just think of the horrible lag during boardwalk weekends and the huge number of people afk'ing. Same thing.

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[2. Idiosyncratically: Trading is a time sink]

This is so wrong it can't be worse. It certainly wasn't a design decision to have trading as a time sink. It's just a necessity coming from the lack of better solutions.

In fact GW was made according to a rule of having NO timesinks at all, just fun gameplay. They just forgot about importance of a trading system back in the earliest design decisions. (remember when there wasn't even a trade channel? you should)

How is trading not a timesink?

Isn't getting the materials and money for your FoW set a timesink? Or maxing out a title? Or reaching rank 12 in HA?

These are all things to keep you busy. Timesinks are not evil. They're just that. Things that keep you busy. It's why you and I play this game.

And as far as you and I know, they want you to actively play the game. Afk trading on a second account is not actively playing the game.

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And your 'improvements' ideas are completelly missed, like:

*Separate Trading Outpost

I, as a seller, am absolutely certain I wouldn't want something like it in game.
It's best to sell where the buyers are, and I know for sure that buyers aren't always in the biggest towns because they want to buy something.
The international districts of Temple of Balthazar were predicted to become the new universal trading place but we know it didn't happen, no trading there except finalising deals from forums.

further disadvantages of this idea:
-having to design a whole new outpost - it would be new free content, requiring work of level designers and graphics people.
-going there, and more importantly FROM there would require another annoying map jump,

And the most important:
-it wouldn't improve anything!!!
Yes, seriously, it would be just 7-15 districts full of spam, everything we already got spread around 3 big cities.

These all seem like very minor drawbacks to an ultimately much more efficient trading system.

Designing a new outpost is not feasable?

Considering the number of utterly deserted small outposts throughout the three campaigns, I don't see how the making of one extremely useful outpost could hurt.

Mapping there is annoying?

Let's see. What I have to do right now is map to Kamadan, change districts to ed1 and hope I didn't have to go to Kaineng ed1 to find what I'm looking for.

Otherwise, I have to Temple of Balthy and map to the Trading Outpost. I don't even have to change districts.

7-15 districts in this trading outpost?

Trade Party Search works across districts. And since it would preview items, people would definitely use it. This effectively creates an in-game trading directory using current technology already implemented in the game.

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And there would be no reason to go there for anyone, unless...

*Get rid of the Trade Channel and Trade in Party Search everywhere except in the Xunlai Trade Center.

Absolutely Awful idea. Would get hated by huge masses.

If you don't like traders in the big towns just turn off the trade chat! You won't notice them. You can also close the trading section of party search if you don't want to see it in Kamadan.

This pretty much answers itself.

Yes, it's radical, but it would centralize trading.

People would hate it at first, since all change is hated at first, but it would greatly improve things in the long run.

Personally, the tradespamming districts don't annoy me, on the contrary, it's where I go to sell my stuff. It's not an elegant solution, but it works to some degree. But this isn't about me personally.

However, I'm sure quite a staggering number of new players are completely disoriented when they first set foot in Kamadan. They arrive in the major city and all they see are people trying to sell them stuff. Not parties being formed, not social interaction, not people helping them around, just traders trying to rob them of the few precious plats they've gathered while just starting out.

And that, I'm sure, is a major concern to ArenaNet. Making the game more accessible to new players.

Also, what is the point of having a Trade Channel or Trade Party Search in -- let me pick some outpost at random -- aha, The Aurios Mines.

Right.

Better yet, what's the use of the Trade Channel when you're in an instanced area?

Okay, it's fun to type in things like "WTB monster AI" or "WTS noob monk that doesn't heal", but otherwise it really has no real use.

Even Local Chat has more use, since you often get those automatic messages in Team Chat from NPCs, meaning that Local Chat is more readable in an explorable area.

Not to mention it's a way to communicate with your opponents in PvP. Anyway, this is about Trade, not Local.

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All you suggest aren't improvements but very serious major NERFS to trading!
Give them nothing useful but instead take away what they got? Horrible ideas...

*Item preview in the Party Search window in the Xunlai Trade Center.

Finally an improvement, but quite small, obviously not worth all the nerfs above.
However it would be very nice if it worked in any town, if it was just an improvement to what we got now. It's like a half of my original idea but without the best part, passive selling.
When one of the biggest reasons of improving trading is saving the time otherwise wasted on active selling, your idea doesn't help here.

And what's wrong with the name? Got a better one? I think it's good enough.

Seriously, Lagg, this isn't a contest on how to make trading even WORSE, so you probably opened a wrong thread.

I'm awfully sorry for being critical of your precious idea. This is a suggestion forum, everyone gets to voice his ideas. If I thought your suggestions were completely horrible beyond belief to begin with, I wouldn't even have bothered replying and in doing so bumping your thread.

So let's try to remain civil, shall we?

I've stated it before, I like your ideas. I think they're brilliant, seriously. But they will not lead us to an actively organised trading system, but a passively disorganised one. Very likely at the cost of network latency, my primary concern.

Yes, a passive system would save everyone time. But that's not what this game is about. The whole point of the game is to interact with people. This isn't supposed to be the NYSE where trading is automated. It's a game. You waste time playing it. You're not being productive.

If you take away the interaction element, you might as well have a [Rare Skin Crafter] and a [Weapon Modification Crafter] (actually, I think we should have that one by all means, but that's besides the point).

Oh and about the name, seeing people like to acronymize things, I'd really pick something else.

bilateralrope · Jun 29, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yawgmoth

@ bilateralrope :

I see you haven't been much into GW ingame trading. If you did, you would know that a majority of players DO like to barter and keep doing it. The vocal minority on forums saying that they don't, says so because they're against the rude behavior of some sellers in game, and that's the reason why such threads appear.

So its your word vs the word of multiple of people ?

Why should I trust you more ?

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Even if an average player wouldn't fill all the slots for sale and might even be selling only one or 2 items, a notification about selling the LAST one item is even more important than selling one of many.

How so ?

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I trade a lot, in the past I AFK wts'ed with the help of a simple macro,

So you admit to breaking the rules and running a bot ?

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now often AFK selling with the use of the primitive PartySearch, and I must say that being able to read potential buyer's whispers, comments about the price, or alternative offers is already extremelly valuable. It would be even more so if buyers were able to look at more items.

Yes I can see it being helpful now. However with a decent search system such information can be better obtained by running the search, seeing what other people are selling things for, then setting your price based on that information.

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I know that a disconnection would mean losing those whisp messages, but it's the same right now and nobody complains.

I don't see too many people complaining about losing the whisper messages.

But I do see people complaining that they can't run their stall because:
- Its a shared computer, and the other people using it keep closing GW
- Their parents won't let them leave the computer running overnight
- They want to do other things on the computer, but GW causes their computer to run too slow if they leave it running.

But if they can run their stall while offline, those problems vanish. Actually if you allow running the stall while offline or doing other things and someone wants to barter then if your online they can easily contact you. If your offline they need to wait till you come online again.

If the system either required online AFKing or saved the messages, I still don't see a barter working between players sitting 12 hours apart from each other (timezones) and only able to send and receive 1 message a day.

So I say let people stay online to AFK if they want, and let them recieve whispers. However don't force us to since some people aren't in a position to be able to do so.

Quote:

These things are the backbone of the system and of course would have to be done for it to work. Maybe with an exception of the search functions which are (nice) improvements on the system.

The things I listed were to make the point that this isn't as simple as an idea as you make it out to be.

As for the search system, we are looking at having tens, probably hundreds, of thousands of stalls operating at any one time. With this number of stalls, I don't see how a search system can be anything but required.

However using 4 bytes per item for the store title and having a client-side filter (like I described above) would be an acceptable system if the stalls are limited to one place (which is a good idea even without a search system).

Quote:

And a source of my info on GW server capacity - these 3 short articles are a must-read for anyone trying to 'invent' something to be done for GW1:
The Database Technology of Guild Wars
The Technology of Guild Wars
Guild Wars Game Notes

Interesting articles, though the 3rd link is just a page that links to the other two. Though I don't see anything that makes an offline stall different to an AFK one, except maybe a larger data blob for the stall list.

Lets go through what I think the steps will be for operating such a stall. Steps in italics are only needed for AFK stalls.

- Seller decides on an items price and adds it to his stall.
- If the stall isn't already running he starts up the stall. If his character is needed in a certain location, he is moved there automatically.
- Stall is added to the list of stalls.
- If the seller logs off, then a message must be sent to remove his stall from the listing
- Buyer enters stall
- Sellers online status is checked to see if he went offline since last check. If he did, buyer gets an error
- Buyer decides to purchase an item from his stall.
- Buyer clicks the buy item button.
- Buyers funds are checked against items cost.
- Sellers online status is checked in case he went offline since the last check. If he did, buyer gets an error
- The stall is checked to make sure the item hasn't been scooped up by someone else since the buyer opened the stall.
- Items are moved between sellers and buyers inventories. Trade complete.
- If the sellers stall has no more items for sale, then the stall is closed.
- If the seller still has items for sale, the stall is renamed to remove the entry for the sold item.

During this process there will be regular check on the age of a stall, closing any that are older than the cutoff age. For offline stalls this should probably be about a week. For AFK stalls Error 059 will take care of things.

Sure I'll admit that being able to receive whispers can be an advantage. But its no reason to force people to keep the stall running if they don't care about haggling the price. If you want to receive the whispers then stay online.

And AFK stalls might also cause some issues with updates since the stall owner is AFK, and thus not able to restart GW.

bilateralrope · Jun 30, 2007, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

So yes, they want players actively playing their game. They just don't want players to actively play their game on one account while another account is also online afk trading.

So allow the stall to keep running while the owner is offline or doing something else

Quote:

How is trading not a timesink?

Isn't getting the materials and money for your FoW set a timesink? Or maxing out a title? Or reaching rank 12 in HA?

Trading is a forced timesink. The other examples you list are all optional timesinks. Forced timesinks do make sense for games that charge per month because they keep you playing. But they don't make sense in a free to play game.

Quote:

Designing a new outpost is not feasable?

Personally I feel that even if we do have stalls, keeping them in one place is a good idea. So we will need an outpost created.

Quote:

Mapping there is annoying?

Let's see. What I have to do right now is map to Kamadan, change districts to ed1 and hope I didn't have to go to Kaineng ed1 to find what I'm looking for.

Otherwise, I have to Temple of Balthy and map to the Trading Outpost. I don't even have to change districts.

And with the current system, even if it was contained to one outpost, selling is still a major hassle.

Quote:

7-15 districts in this trading outpost?

Trade Party Search works across districts. And since it would preview items, people would definitely use it. This effectively creates an in-game trading directory using current technology already implemented in the game.

Except that hardly anyone actually uses party search for anything. However the plan for the stalls is to have them only exist in their own window.

Quote:

I've stated it before, I like your ideas. I think they're brilliant, seriously. But they will not lead us to an actively organised trading system, but a passively disorganised one. Very likely at the cost of network latency, my primary concern.

Please elaborate on this point.

Quote:

Yes, a passive system would save everyone time. But that's not what this game is about. The whole point of the game is to interact with people. This isn't supposed to be the NYSE where trading is automated. It's a game. You waste time playing it. You're not being productive.

Quote:

Yes, we wast time playing GW because we enjoy doing so. The people complaining about the trade system however don't enjoy using it.

And how is forcing interaction for trading a good thing when it allows people to force prices up simply because the people selling for cheaper are harder to find ?

If you take away the interaction element, you might as well have a [Rare Skin Crafter] and a [Weapon Modification Crafter] (actually, I think we should have that one by all means, but that's besides the point).

And how exactly does this follow from automating the trading system ?

And how does the current trade system help players decide what price to expect when selling something ?
How would confining all the trade chat to one town change it ?

This system does so because people run the search, see what price other people are selling similar items for, then price slightly below that.

Sure I can see confining all the trade chat to one town being a good idea. However I think this thread is discussing a better idea.

Yawgmoth · Jul 04, 2007, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

As I said before, they'd much rather have you buy 7 accounts, just for storage, each used separately (never more than 1 account online) than see everyone have 1 active account which they're playing and 1 afk account online all the time.

No matter whether the afk is using up 2kb/s or 10kb/s, he's still using up a server slot, which means ArenaNet will have to buy additional servers, simply because of the huge number of afk accounts.

So yes, they want players actively playing their game. They just don't want players to actively play their game on one account while another account is also online afk trading.

And even if they do want it, then it's going to come at the cost of network latency.

Just think of the horrible lag during boardwalk weekends and the huge number of people afk'ing. Same thing.

I bet they would jump in joy if this update caused people to buy more accounts, and it doesn't
(Of course I realise that they're making a slightly bigger profit when a game copy is added to an existing account instead of creating a new active account, but trust me, the accounts pay for themselves and they still earn good money on them no matter how much they're going to be used)

Now a blink of reality for you - I suggest rethinking how many people would actually buy new accounts to afk sell with them while playing on their normal account. This requires either:
-having access to 2 computers at once
-or doing the 2 on one trick, not easy for the vast majority of players to do and also requiring quite a powerful machine so running 2 clients wouldn't affect the game performance.
Also don't forget that those hardcore traders can do the same even right now! 1 more account is 1 more line in the current party search and 1 more district to be wts spammed by a macro (undetectable). Only the most hardcore do it.

I'd say that much less than 1% of all active players would do that, only the hardcore traders and those of them who fulfill the requirements. This just can't fill or lag their servers. Not at all.

And lags during events aren't an argument, as lags caused by the boardwalk afkers happen only there, in shing jea. No matter what event is running, during weekends the pings and network problems are always higher than during weekdays. It's like that on the whole internet, not just GW.

Quote:

How is trading not a timesink?

Isn't getting the materials and money for your FoW set a timesink? Or maxing out a title? Or reaching rank 12 in HA?

These are all things to keep you busy. Timesinks are not evil. They're just that. Things that keep you busy. It's why you and I play this game.

I must repeat myself again... Trading wasn't designed as a timesink, trading wasn't designed at all. Instead of a timesink I would rather think of it as of grind, trying to actively sell something is a grind and is the main reason why trade improvements are needed in the first place.

Quote:

Designing a new outpost is not feasable?

Considering the number of utterly deserted small outposts throughout the three campaigns, I don't see how the making of one extremely useful outpost could hurt.

Unfortunately yes, making a new outpost is making new content and it would require interrupting the work and schedules of the designer teams working on a big project like gw:en or gw2, require the work of more men than some interface/engine improvements the 'live team' would be possibly capable of doing. The tons of useless empty outposts we have were part of the big campagin design and had to be done.
But I think it won't be needed at all! We already know that the expansion will bring Eye of the North - one big city, the center of the new world, accessible early in the game and including the entrance to Hall of Monuments. People will be there, and we know that trading happens where people are and not where they're told to be. It's just doomed to become the new big trading place, probably bigger than any of the current ones.

Quote:

This pretty much answers itself.

Yes, it's radical, but it would centralize trading.

People would hate it at first, since all change is hated at first, but it would greatly improve things in the long run.

Nerfing what isn't broken, taking away from players what they could do and did and forcing them to play in a different way than they did before is bad by definition.
Removing trade chat and trade section of party search from all towns is easily the worst idea i've read in a very long time.
You're forgetting about local markets, things that get traded mainly in certain places, like
ectos and shards in Temple of Ages,
Gemstones in Gate of Anguish,
Trade Contracts, Rubies, Sapphires in Kodesh Bazaar,
Celestial Sigils in Hero's Ascent,
and newbies trade their chunks of drake flesh and iboga petals in all outposts around Istan.
FORCING all of these people to go to one place is plain ridiculous.

However, offering the trade improvements only in selected places may be a good idea, but if there aren't any technical obstacles in doing so, I see no harm in allowing for example someone waiting for the FoW group to form to show his stuff for sale across all the ToA districts through improved PartySearch.

Quote:

However, I'm sure quite a staggering number of new players are completely disoriented when they first set foot in Kamadan. They arrive in the major city and all they see are people trying to sell them stuff. Not parties being formed, not social interaction, not people helping them around, just traders trying to rob them of the few precious plats they've gathered while just starting out.

And that, I'm sure, is a major concern to ArenaNet. Making the game more accessible to new players.

So you speak on behalf on ArenaNet and say things like trade spam on the trade channel which can be disabled make the game less accessible for anyone? Woah crazy! If there was no trade channel in Kamadan it would be either a desolate place or rather filled with other kinds of spam on local, even trade spam or even worse. Now at least they know the'yre coming to a busy place, know it's a huge marketplace and learn to use it too.

Quote:

I've stated it before, I like your ideas. I think they're brilliant, seriously. But they will not lead us to an actively organised trading system, but a passively disorganised one. Very likely at the cost of network latency, my primary concern.

Yes, a passive system would save everyone time. But that's not what this game is about. The whole point of the game is to interact with people. This isn't supposed to be the NYSE where trading is automated. It's a game. You waste time playing it. You're not being productive.

If you take away the interaction element, you might as well have a [Rare Skin Crafter] and a [Weapon Modification Crafter] (actually, I think we should have that one by all means, but that's besides the point).

Having a selling improvement that requires the seller to remain active doesn't really improve the current situation at all. Selling takes a very long time and the time could well be spent on playing the game instead of standing in some town shouting. I again compare it to some worst kinds of grind, forced time spent on something not liked.
Taking away some of the interaction doesn't automatically destroy the whole market and economy, so it can't be compared to having a crafter for all the goods. However a normal supply/demand based modifications trader npc is an improvement that's really needed.

darknight2169 · Jul 06, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Gw trade system sucks (sorry Anet but it does) compared to almost every game I've played, even free mmorpgs like knight online have user stalls,

/signed a million times over

Synles Chyld · Aug 07, 2007, 01:51 AM // 01:51

/signed

/signed

/signed

i want it more than i want Gwen or GW2 yes oh yes give me a personal stall to sale my wares omg life in GW would be sooo sweeeettttt!!!

Syn

SRckt98 · Aug 07, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

/signed

I gave up on selling purples and golds a long time ago, I ended up resorting to giving them away as prizes for finding me in Ascalon City, I hate selling purples and golds to vendors.

Metal Herc · Aug 07, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

I am not going to read through all 6 pages. But I agree with what I read on the first page.

With all these Elite Armors and titles that require gold (booze, candy etc) gold is needed. As it stands the system is horrible. I can't be bothered to sit there spamming and I can't fit anything but 1 item in the party search.

I also can't be bothered to sit around untill someone acutally wants to trade.

This system reminds me of Ragnarok Online, there was a blacksmith class who could set up a stall and sell stuff. Also the hordes of crappy korean free MMOs all have the ability to set up a stall.

This is really a needed part of GW and I am not lying when I say that the current system has driven me to abandon GW for a week or so at a time. I have tons of stuff that I know sells, but I can't stand the process of selling.

Hopefully something like this can be implemented in GW1 and I know it will be a deciding factor in me getting GW2 or not.

Hidden Guru · Aug 07, 2007, 09:48 AM // 09:48

This is an amazing idea. I agree with any sort of AFK auctioning thing. I have so much random crap, greens, golds, etc, that I have been wanting to sell but don't want to put up with the spam and unruly buyers.

/signed