Curse

code1101 · Jan 22, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

/notsigned

alot of players would be pissed (including me) and not much would be gained from this change ... for gods sake leave this game alone ... seriously this game became somthing else other than what I bought

wbbear29 · Jan 22, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Most of the problem skills are alreayd overpowered at rank 1 anyway, so it would hardly fix anything. I prefer other fixes, like for example that Pain Inverter reads maximum of 80 damager per second (instead of maximum 80 damage). And stuff like that.

Shayne Hawke · Jan 22, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmitchies

/notsigned Dude other people like them. Let them play the game they payed for and quit with the QQ.

I bought GW back in '05, can I get that game back?

@ OP: The only things that this could really work for are the professions specific ones to be made more profession specific. Skills from the Norn or Asura or the like couldn't possibly have such a tie, so there's probably not going to be a good uniform system of scaling for any of them.

Abedeus · Jan 22, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

/signed

Just to show people that pre-Nightfall skill actually mattered a bit in PvE.

And my Prophecies box, wherever it is, wouldn't be such a lying bastard about that Skill > Time thing.

I also loled about PvE = player need an upper hand. We have an upper hand already. We have IQ 100+. Maybe if you don't, then you MUST have titles.

DoomFrost · Jan 22, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

/not signed

Sorry doesn't make any sense to make PvE skills exclusive to one attribute.

ele pl · Jan 22, 2009, 04:49 PM // 16:49

/signed so so
My idea (dreaming /on): Add a new atribute called "Pve Skills". You need to spend atribute in it, not in a primary atribute.
Better option to nerf: Add atributes like titles atm (atributes like kurzick atribute, ss atribute and so on). Each lvl in those atributes=better skill. Also, titles like those (ss, lb, and so on) just decrease cost of lvling that atribute.
For example (very random)
I want to have sunspear atribute r10, to pwn with intesify. 8 spec cost me for example 160 points, but i have sunspear rank 10, so it cost only 80 points. See that? (forget about numbers)

Marverick · Jan 22, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Wow you people are retarded... no one is suggesting removing the titles so you can go ahead and grind them out on 10 chars if you want.

And so what if there is no in-game benefit for them?

PvE skills WILL STILL BE VIABLE and STILL MORE POWERFUL than regular skills... WTF is wrong with you people? 10 attribute points for a 2 * 100 AoE armor ignoring spike is more powerful than anything else you can spend those 10 points for.

Quote:

the reason for asking for PvE skills to be tied to attribute is in the hope that OP skills like CoP remains OP but tied to fast casting, so it is therefore available only to Mesmers but still does not nerf the skill one tiny bit IMO

No, that is NOT what I am proposing...
Tying them to SEPARATE attributes will force people to spend attribute points to use the skills effectively rather than getting overpowered skills for free. They will still be overpowered, I'm not asking that CoP be made 10..15 damage or something...

Tyla · Jan 22, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Guru Wars: Assault of the Carebears.

Oh, and /Signed. Attributes should matter, and PvE skills can take up a total of 3/8 of your bar maximum - titles don't need to power PvE skills, it benefits the more "casual" players, grinding was never hard and if you want GWAMM, feel free to grind for it if you wish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by code1100

alot of players would be pissed (including me) and not much would be gained from this change ... for gods sake leave this game alone ... seriously this game became somthing else other than what I bought

Sorry, but this game became something other than what I bought too. This is reverting it back to "my" view, and is there really any negativity to it? You have to use attributes more carefully now! What the hell will be the big deal?

draxynnic · Jan 23, 2009, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyx Blindbow

Remove AoE from CoP

Personally, I'd be inclined to make it work like Shatter Delusions and Drain Delusions by removing the hex it uses as a feeder. That way it'd still be usable by a single mesmer to get some AoE damage, but you wouldn't be able to get huge spikes out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reflect

/notsigned

So yeah
1st F*CK up all that grinded titles for those, so dumbf*cks can be happy

Plenty of those you are calling "dumbf*cks" are probably among those who originally bought GW because it was advertised as a grind-optional game.

I can see the reason for opposing a revert now because of the effort people have already gone into for grinding (although I'd personally have no problem with my Legendary Spearmarshal being no longer tied to skills), but the people who dislike the grind do have seniority when it comes to being upset about no longer having the game they paid for.

Titles were supposed to be there purely for vanity like elite armours, not as a second stage of powering up your character!

PS Oh, and... Prediction confirmed.

Abedeus · Jan 23, 2009, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoomFrost

/not signed

Sorry doesn't make any sense to make PvE skills exclusive to one attribute.

I think you have a Prophecies box with ya. If not, I'd like to remind you, what mine used to say (because, right now, it's probably recycled for the 5th time):

A game where your skill, not time spent playing, will bring you a victory over your foes.

Or something like that. PvE-Skills make my poor old box a liar.

Onyx Blindbow · Jan 23, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Wow you people are retarded... no one is suggesting removing the titles so you can go ahead and grind them out on 10 chars if you want.

And so what if there is no in-game benefit for them?

PvE skills WILL STILL BE VIABLE and STILL MORE POWERFUL than regular skills... WTF is wrong with you people? 10 attribute points for a 2 * 100 AoE armor ignoring spike is more powerful than anything else you can spend those 10 points for.

No, that is NOT what I am proposing...
Tying them to SEPARATE attributes will force people to spend attribute points to use the skills effectively rather than getting overpowered skills for free. They will still be overpowered, I'm not asking that CoP be made 10..15 damage or something...

Ok let's look at this again, take CoP as the skill in question.

You want an OP PvE only skill moving from Sunspear rank (in this case anyway) into an attribute based skill for the profession (in this case Mesmer) as a reduction to grinding.

or to look at it from another point of view

You want access to an OP skill without having to do anything other than buy a mesmer tome and use your attribute points.

What this does is remove the usefulness of anything other than a Mesmer (in this case) in actually using this skill.

People seem to forget that in playing nightfall (for instance) that you collect sunspear points as you go, so the ability to have skills linked to these to allow a little more flexibility in your bar was probably the raison d'etre behind the PvE skills, if you choose to grind the rank to it's maximum to get maximum benefit from the skill then that is your own call.

All you are saying is that you want fast access to OP skills with zero effort at all in a game that doesn't really need said skills to complete anything in any mode or any area.

Far better IMO to just nerf these PvE skills to levels similar to existing attribute based skills, CoP (for instance) should be the PvE rank/rep/faction tiered equivalent of Cry of Frustration, not a kill anything within a 100 mile blast radius skill as it is at present. this would allow the flexibility to bring these skills without turning the game into a joke or into a farmfest for SC groups as it is at present.

Sweet Mystery · Jan 23, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

/notsigned

Erm... and how would you tie this to attributes... have them as brand new ones to set points to? Make Anet re-write the whole attribute section to add in 8 new allocation areas?

Erm... no....

Leave PvE skills allocated to the already tied in levelling system... the rank obtained... why the need to change... none at all... just means those who want them can get them. You want access work for it, not ask for a cheapo way out...

ajc2123 · Jan 23, 2009, 04:03 PM // 16:03

/notsigned

Already split my attributes into fast casting/inspiration/illusion or domination. Defeats the purpose of having pve only skills. Don't like em? don't use em. That simple. I played back in just proph days too but I'm fine with the changes.

Tyla · Jan 23, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

/notsigned

Already split my attributes into fast casting/inspiration/illusion or domination. Defeats the purpose of having pve only skills. Don't like em? don't use em. That simple. I played back in just proph days too but I'm fine with the changes.

Oh, hi.

Removing the required grind on PvE skills will help form PuGs. Whether or not PuGs are bad, this will make them more accessable considering that when you introduce grind-based benefits, you're going to be having people being less inclusive.

Not using them isn't the point, and that's ignoring a problem which means the problem isn't solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adebeus

A game where your skill, not time spent playing, will bring you a victory over your foes.

I'll take a common approach of the Carebear here and say:

IT DOESNTS MATTER IN PVES! >:<

Quote:

You want access work for it, not ask for a cheapo way out...

Guess what? I play this game to play this game, not to do repetetive chores. If I wanted to do that I'd be doing a full sweep over my room every hour instead of drumming or chilling out with my mates.

ajc2123 · Jan 23, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, hi.

Removing the required grind on PvE skills will help form PuGs. Whether or not PuGs are bad, this will make them more accessable considering that when you introduce grind-based benefits, you're going to be having people being less inclusive.

Not using them isn't the point, and that's ignoring a problem which means the problem isn't solved.

Guess what? I play this game to play this game, not to do repetetive chores. If I wanted to do that I'd be doing a full sweep over my room every hour instead of drumming or chilling out with my mates.

There is no grind...Just grab the bounties when you quest, do a couple dungeons. Hell most pve skills are useful at extremely low ranks. Putting them in Attributes would make them almost unusable. If you put pve skills in an attribute then you need to remove the 3 skill limit to make it more worthy.

Also, yes, ignoring a problem can fix it. People can play with pve skills and be fast, they are happy, happy = fixed. People can play with more tactics and skill, they feel rewarded for doing it this way, they are happy, = fixed. All we need to do is stop caring how other people play and magical fixed all around!

Tyla · Jan 23, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

There is no grind...Just grab the bounties when you quest, do a couple dungeons. Hell most pve skills are useful at extremely low ranks.

No grind? Completing everything won't give you everything you need, you will have to grind some time or other, and with Sunspear/Lightbringer, you're definately going to grind.

Quote:

Putting them in Attributes would make them almost unusable. If you put pve skills in an attribute then you need to remove the 3 skill limit to make it more worthy.

I lol'd. Elaborate, how will this make them unusable? You're being so terrible that you can't even reconfigure your build?

Quote:

Also, yes, ignoring a problem can fix it. People can play with pve skills and be fast, they are happy, happy = fixed. People can play with more tactics and skill, they feel rewarded for doing it this way, they are happy, = fixed. All we need to do is stop caring how other people play and magical fixed all around!

Remember Ursan? The dominant skill that was declining 3 major principles of the game? You seen how popular that was, and you just can't ignore it at all. That is, unless you want to search around for ages for the guild / team / friends that actually plays something different and will be there for you whenever you want to do it. Otherwise, you're going to be completely seperated from player engagement unless you grind the title.

Speed was already existant, but you had to be skillful to get "uber" times.

I have a question. If there was a skill that killed everything in the map that was free, would that be alright to you? Would you just ignore it?

You don't see games like Halo 3 having the Spartan Laser fire as fast as an Assault Rifle or have as much "bullets" as a turret.

MithranArkanere · Jan 23, 2009, 04:47 PM // 16:47

When PvE skills are proved to be excessive, they get nerfed.

For the last time. PvE can't be balanced, because both sides are not in equal footage. What's the most balanced game? Flip a coin: 50:50. Add more variables and balance gets harder. Mind vs AI? That absolutely can't be balanced. That's why many games have difficulty settings. When AI is involved, what is easy for some may be hard for others, and vice versa.

Some PvE skills are overpowered because some monster are overpowered too. That's all about it.

Tyla · Jan 23, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

When PvE skills are proved to be excessive, they get nerfed.

For the last time. PvE can't be balanced, because both sides are not in equal footage. What's the most balanced game? Flip a coin: 50:50. Add more variables and balance gets harder. Mind vs AI? That absolutely can't be balanced. That's why many games have difficulty settings. When AI is involved, what is easy for some may be hard for others, and vice versa.

Some PvE skills are overpowered because some monster are overpowered too. That's all about it.

So, because something is unbalancable, it's something to be ignored? No game is balancable, so let's apply that same logic shall we? Ignoring the problem is stupid, while trying to fix the problem as much as possible is a smart approach that isn't lazy at all.

Sure, the AI has stupid powerful abilities, but our ability to improve more overcomes that. Either that or you believe you're a bot too.

pumpkin pie · Jan 23, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

what we have now is max rank 10 for pve skills right. so if you follow, say, the primary profession of the character for the attribute, does it means can boost to rank 16 ?

If so /signed. although I don't use PvE skills

MithranArkanere · Jan 23, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

So, because something is unbalancable, it's something to be ignored? No game is balancable, so let's apply that same logic shall we? Ignoring the problem is stupid, while trying to fix the problem as much as possible is a smart approach that isn't lazy at all.

Sure, the AI has stupid powerful abilities, but our ability to improve more overcomes that. Either that or you believe you're a bot too.

Yes, games can be balanced:
- Flip a coin.
- Tic tac toe.
- Rock, Paper, Scissors.
- Chess
- Checkers
- Parcheesi
- ALL card games.
- Backgammon
- And the list goes on forever.
What have all those games in common? Both sides are in equal footage and have the same chances to win.

You don't balance making all characters of the same side equal. You balance by making both sides equal. And that can't be done in PvE.
Some professions may be more effective in some areas than others, but they are all in the same side. You don't balance the game by making all of them equally effective. You may make the game more fair, and that's good, but that's not balance, because people that win together don't fight with each other. You party leader it's not your enemy.

What I say it's not "Do not balance them". What I say it's "Limit them when they are too much". And that has been done since the start of the game, and will keep happening.
And that it's not balance, that's 'limitation'. Balance it's when both sides are in equal footage and have the same chances to win. But that in PvE would be simply ridiculous! Why? Because we would have 50% chances to win in EACH fight against each party with the same number of monsters as us. And you may have to fight 50 parties or more in one area.
That won't be fun, that would be just frustrating.