Curse

Improvavel · Jan 31, 2009, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I won't be able to compete with those who farm on a regular basis.

The rewards don't matter when the economy is crushed, what does matter is that it's an elite area in hard mode taking an incredibly low skill level as minimum and giving so much.

You want to be competing in PvE with other people. I'm not competing with other people.

That is the main difference.

If I want to compete vs them I go play PvP - I don't play PvP anymore cause I don't have time for it - team games require too much, time and coordination of schedules. Last PvP I was playing was 1vs1 in WC3 and Dawn of war.

What you telling me is that you want to be competing against other people using PvE environment.

Someone like me, on the other hand, doesn't have time and schedule to achieve those requirements - that is 7 other like minded, same skill that have a dozen hours to do DoA - planning builds, experimenting with them and beat it. I want to get my girl (she is abroad from me, so gws is a decent way to be together, sure

), our heroes, get a few builds, give a few scouting runs at it, tinkering the builds and beat the elite area - at least in nm.

If GW 2 is the style of game you want to purpose, I'm out of it - not because its too hard or something, but because I can't afford the time/demands of it.

I want an improved Diablo/Dungeon Siege, not a scaled to PvE GvG competition.

Guess we want different things from the game, and I must say, that at the moment the game gives neither, but close to my desires.

UnChosen · Jan 31, 2009, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

GW is not becoming stagnant because of pve skills , it's becoming stagnant because there is no new content , so we all must replay the old content again and again and again... Also , challenge is very subjective , stop using this as a reason to nerf stuff so that you and a handful of people can remember "the good old days". The only way GW can be challenging like the first time you played it is if we get more content. Skill nerfs won't do anything to make the game challenging.

This. All the QQ trying to make people play "balanced" build, which is probably the most boring builds ever in the history of GW just because its been done so damn many times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You want to be competing in PvE with other people. I'm not competing with other people.

If I want to compete vs them I go play PvP - I don't play PvP anymore cause I don't have time for it - team games require too much, time and coordination of schedules. Last PvP I was playing was 1vs1 in WC3 and Dawn of war.

What you telling me is that you want to be competing against other people using PvE environment.

I want an improved Diablo/Dungeon Siege, not a scaled to PvE GvG competition.

Agreed.

Regulus X · Feb 01, 2009, 02:18 AM // 02:18

25/90 it. 25/90 every skill in-game! Problems solved. Any questions? No? GG

CE Devilman · Feb 01, 2009, 02:24 AM // 02:24

my way ...U way
I dont tell U how to play.

Age · Feb 01, 2009, 02:39 AM // 02:39

I would like to point out that there are others out there who use these skills that aren't on The Guru.I haven't seen any other threads on any other boards than here not even IncGamers.

xDusT II · Feb 01, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I want a skill that instantly kills every enemy in the zone. Don't tell me it's overpowered because it's how I want to play and I don't tell YOU how to play. If you don't like the skill just don't use it. I don't have time to vanquish and such a skill would make the game much more fun for me.

Lishy · Feb 01, 2009, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

I want a skill that instantly kills every enemy in the zone. Don't tell me it's overpowered because it's how I want to play and I don't tell YOU how to play. If you don't like the skill just don't use it. I don't have time to vanquish and such a skill would make the game much more fun for me.

/12chars

GW is a game about how YOU want to play.
I, personally, want to breeze through things DoA.
I don't have the resources, nor' time to look for a good guild that can sooo easily clear DoA without OP skills, unlike you guys.
So I resort to tank n' spank RoJ and CoP.

And the question still remains:
WHY do you want the skill nerfed? I mean, if you hate it so much and don't use it anyways, then all you're doing is ruining fun for players.

Anet doesn't nerf PvE skills often, and I could doubt these skills are on the hitlist. And even so, there will always be new gimmicks.
There's nothing to be at lost because you have two skills which makes the game slightly easier. All it does is make you "mad" because there's no "balance" because you feel you aren't special after clearing UW

Improvavel · Feb 01, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

I want a skill that instantly kills every enemy in the zone. Don't tell me it's overpowered because it's how I want to play and I don't tell YOU how to play. If you don't like the skill just don't use it. I don't have time to vanquish and such a skill would make the game much more fun for me.

I bet if you had such a skill u wouldn't last long in the game, though

On the other hand, it wouldn't affect my game if you had such skill.

Tyla · Feb 01, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You want to be competing in PvE with other people. I'm not competing with other people.

I do? That had nothing to do with the sort - if I wanted to be competing I'd want to have a ladder up like in challenge missions. Change the definition of "Elite" while you're at it.

Quote:

If I want to compete vs them I go play PvP - I don't play PvP anymore cause I don't have time for it - team games require too much, time and coordination of schedules. Last PvP I was playing was 1vs1 in WC3 and Dawn of war.

Which is what I would do.

Quote:

snip

You have completely missed my point. I don't play for competetivity in PvE, and I don't play PvE. These skill changes probably won't change that, but I'm still arguing for these changes to make different buildstyles be equal so it's more "fair" for everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

This. All the QQ trying to make people play "balanced" build, which is probably the most boring builds ever in the history of GW just because its been done so damn many times.

So, a balanced build (at least, what I'm arguing for is a build that doesn't go across the faded line and for different build types to be equal) is boring because it's been done so many times? Read the thread.

kostolomac · Feb 01, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I do? That had nothing to do with the sort - if I wanted to be competing I'd want to have a ladder up like in challenge missions. Change the definition of "Elite" while you're at it.

Then why do you care if someone uses cryway or something else to complete an area? I sure don't.

Quote:

I want a skill that instantly kills every enemy in the zone. Don't tell me it's overpowered because it's how I want to play and I don't tell YOU how to play. If you don't like the skill just don't use it. I don't have time to vanquish and such a skill would make the game much more fun for me.

I heard blowing things out of proportion is a a very good argument.

UnChosen · Feb 01, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

If reward fairness is going to be used for an argument, then ANET also need to remove every single solo farming build in the game, because most of them gives far greater reward for the skill required. If anything CoP actually takes awareness in that you need to hex to be effective.

Tyla · Feb 01, 2009, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

I heard blowing things out of proportion is a a very good argument.

He actually has a point there. Disagree with that? You're disagreeing with Cry of Pain and all other severely imbalanced crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

If reward fairness is going to be used for an argument, then ANET also need to remove every single solo farming build in the game, because most of them gives far greater reward for the skill required. If anything CoP actually takes awareness in that you need to hex to be effective.

You throw Mind Wrack on an enemy, call the target and all of the enemies pop assuming your allies aren't f*cktards. AWARENESS!

Also, stop posting or follow the posts. Reward fairness isn't being used as an argument. Quote what you think is relevent to that if you really believe that.

kostolomac · Feb 01, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

He actually has a point there. Disagree with that? You're disagreeing with Cry of Pain and all other severely imbalanced crap.

CoP isn't anywhere near powerful like the skill he wants (it's only powerful when there are 10 copies of it). Also CoP exists , and the other doesn't.

Tyla · Feb 01, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

CoP isn't anywhere near powerful like the skill he wants (it's only powerful when there are 10 copies of it). Also CoP exists , and the other doesn't.

He was exaggerating on it. It's incredibly imbalanced now, but people claim that because you don't have to play with people it doesn't affect you, therefore such a skill would be okay too. It being imbalanced in numbers is enough for nerfing.

kostolomac · Feb 01, 2009, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

He was exaggerating on it. It's incredibly imbalanced now, but people claim that because you don't have to play with people it doesn't affect you, therefore such a skill would be okay too. It being imbalanced in numbers is enough for nerfing.

CoP's only imbalance is that it can hit 10+ foes , limiting the number of affected foes would balance the skill a bit. Outside of farming builds the only occasion CoP is actually powerful is with AP.

the_jos · Feb 01, 2009, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Outside of farming builds the only occasion CoP is actually powerful when used by unskilled players or unorganised parties is with AP.

I fixed this a little

I think there is little debate on the power of CoP.

The main problem with CoP isn't the usage by one single player.
It's an entire team that uses the skill at once and thus killing about everything that moves around a tank.
I can think of several ways of doing that without CoP.
However, this would require somewhat more team coordination than just 1, 2, 3, spike. And, for the less skilled/organised parties, it would require the usage of elite skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

CoP's only imbalance is that it can hit 10+ foes , limiting the number of affected foes would balance the skill a bit.

That would be a change that would not affect the solo-playing mesmer primary or secondary too much I'd say. They don't tend to aggro the entire field at once.

On the other hand, I think new builds will emerge when this one is nerfed.
Should A-net also nerf those builds? And when does that stop, what are the criteria?

Athrun Feya · Feb 01, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Wow, this thread.

CoPs current effect on the game:

-Pugging-
I've covered this a few times on similar threads, but in short, people try and people don't succeed.

A few days ago I spent a couple of hours playing with PuGs in Urgoz (not something I usually do, but it's rather nice to see people back in these after the faction reward was added!). We managed to get a team together, of course the perma had very little idea of what to do and, for that matter, neither did a number of casters (this does not make them nessecarily bad players, they could just be inexperienced). We wiped after 30 minutes of slow-pulls, leaks, bad spikes (from a combination of no hex/wrong target/no df/not enough damage/little communication from the tank). After about 2 and a half hours of attempted cryway PuGs the definate trend of failing pug cryway teams was apparent. I may explore PuG groups in other areas and see if this if this holds throughout.

Of course, in the ursan era, you could literally just pick up any pug and gogo complete an elite area most of the time. Big difference there.

-Speed clears-
Are not done by PuGs. Are done by organised guild/alliance groups who run these missions daily, with consumables and don't pick up drops or miss out chests in the aid of speed. As a consequence of their persistance in these elite areas, tactics have significantly improved (people know every corner of the elite areas) and so has skill level (knowing best escape root if something goes wrong, for example). Had we known then what we know now, runs could have been just as fast a year or two ago (anything Shadow-Form related is an exception, shadow form allowed us to do something which wasn't possible before). Cryway is not the reason for the decrease in speed - many of the records on GWGuru are held by the same group of people.

-Economy-
Let's face it, CoP teams have had pretty much no impact. You only have to look at the price of Armbraces or Obsidian Shards (compared to, say, that of the ursan-era) and realise that there is a diminishing population of people in these elite areas still. Some players have horded large amounts of money, but that tends to happen anyway when you do the same elite area most days for 2/3 years consecutive-that is not an issue with Cry of Pain.

If cop were nerfed:

-The new cryway-
In guild wars, AoE armour ignoring damage isn't exactly hard to come by - in fact recent changes to skills like VoR and RoJ gives teams even more armour-ignoring alturnatives. Energy Surge, Feast of Corruption and RoJ all function in the same way as Cry of Pain (RoJ would still be viable, even with scatter, with a potent slow-down hex like Deep Freeze). None of these skills are exactly the same, but still form a foundation to build an AoE-spike build on.

Guild [agro] have already proved, by doing a run with no PvE-skills, that Cry of Pain has pretty minimal effects in The Deep as far as time is concerned (see http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...&postcount=262 ) and could do similarly for Urgoz, FoW, etc. What would impact more greatly (and already has started to with recent changes) are changes to Shadow Form. Do results like show that Energy Surge and Feast of Corruption also need to be nerfed?

Misc notes:

-Myway or the highway-
Some (well, possibly most) of the people who start threads about nerfing skills for caster-based (aka 'tank and spank') play mainly heavy physicals. Currently we have the option to go as a caster-base team, a physical based team, or some random hybrid. It's sad how hypocritial these players can be, insisting that the only "proper" type of gameplay is one using a physical/random team build. Why would anyone want to reduce the type of team builds you should play - what kind of person would force everyone to stick to a physical team? This leads me on to my next point.

-Tyla-
How can anyone take the views seriously of a person who has not played the game for quite a while, who has not witnessed the effects of cryway in the general community, who has never experienced a PuG cryway team, who speaks from no evident factual basis.

So many haters on GWGuru fall into a trap of this strange perceived view of cryway, where foes assemble themselves neatly into a ball around the main tank, with no effort whatsoever, and somehow PuGs can "123" and everything disappears within a few seconds. Now lets think about reality. In reality, when you're pugging, you must have been involved in some kind of miracle if your pug perma manages to pull under an hour in Urgoz, for example. Every caster has to be ready and familiar with every spike, etc, etc.

Experienced guilds (even who don't usually play caster-based team builds) have tried this and found it not to be the perceived 123, looking through similar threads to this I can give the example of some members of LOD - I'm pretty confident that the change in their opinion on cryway over the last couple of months is down to experience using this build.

-Cons, cons, cons-
All speed clear records have been done with consumables. Maybe this and Shadow Form are actually bigger contributors to Elite area completion time reductions than a certain (replaceable) AoE armour ignoring spell.

Tyla · Feb 01, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athrun Feya

If cop were nerfed:

-The new cryway-
In guild wars, AoE armour ignoring damage isn't exactly hard to come by - in fact recent changes to skills like VoR and RoJ gives teams even more armour-ignoring alturnatives. Energy Surge, Feast of Corruption and RoJ all function in the same way as Cry of Pain (RoJ would still be viable, even with scatter, with a potent slow-down hex like Deep Freeze). None of these skills are exactly the same, but still form a foundation to build an AoE-spike build on.

None of those compare to CoP at all - they take up elite slots, have a recharge of at least 10 and have requirements bigger than CoP. Sure, they will allow a spike still, but compared to 12 recharge, non-elite and 10 energy?

Yeah, consumables and Shadow Form are a heavy part of it - I'd like to see those get hit too, but I guess you have a point on alternatives.

Quote:

-Myway or the highway-
Some (well, possibly most) of the people who start threads about nerfing skills for caster-based (aka 'tank and spank') play mainly heavy physicals. Currently we have the option to go as a caster-base team, a physical based team, or some random hybrid. It's sad how hypocritial these players can be, insisting that the only "proper" type of gameplay is one using a physical/random team build. Why would anyone want to reduce the type of team builds you should play - what kind of person would force everyone to stick to a physical team? This leads me on to my next point.

And currently it stands as the caster based team being superior while the physical based team is quite weaker and slower. Best off balancing them as one, keep all options of gameplay "ready" and open for people who want the best.

Quote:

-Tyla-
How can anyone take the views seriously of a person who has not played the game for quite a while, who has not witnessed the effects of cryway in the general community, who has never experienced a PuG cryway team, who speaks from no evident factual basis.

Actually, I was on a few days ago, and surprisingly I had an invite from [agro] waiting for me. I'm curious about that.

Quote:

So many haters on GWGuru fall into a trap of this strange perceived view of cryway, where foes assemble themselves neatly into a ball around the main tank, with no effort whatsoever, and somehow PuGs can "123" and everything disappears within a few seconds. Now lets think about reality. In reality, when you're pugging, you must have been involved in some kind of miracle if your pug perma manages to pull under an hour in Urgoz, for example. Every caster has to be ready and familiar with every spike, etc, etc.

What about the other form of TankNSpank? Cryway allows you to get away with it a lot more, and only the tank needs to know what to do really - agro management is a part of everything.

But if you're gong to throw my reply off, at least give me the answer to the following: Why was I being invited?

Athrun Feya · Feb 01, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

None of those compare to CoP at all - they take up elite slots, have a recharge of at least 10 and have requirements bigger than CoP. Sure, they will allow a spike still, but compared to 12 recharge, non-elite and 10 energy?

But we can achieve the same results with them, as proven in The Deep. Surely this means they are extremely comparible. Therefore, as shown previously, CoP is replacable.

I would argue that when facing huge mobs (which are pretty common in any elite area) reliable AoE damage is, by any standard, superior compared to somewhat limited AoE from buffed physicals. Therefore caster based teams happen to be more suitable for places like DoA and The Deep. Urgoz is about equal with respect to record using both type of team and FoW even moreso because of smaller enemy mobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

But if you're gong to throw my reply off, at least give me the answer to the following: Why was I being invited?

We heard you got rejected by TAM and thought you could do with some experience to build your opinions on as far as cryway is concerned.

Improvavel · Feb 01, 2009, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I do? That had nothing to do with the sort - if I wanted to be competing I'd want to have a ladder up like in challenge missions. Change the definition of "Elite" while you're at it.

Elite missions opposed to regular Missions opposed to primary quests opposed to quests.

Not Elite because only a few select players can do them.

And they must be elite if the only way to do them in HM is using con sets, 8 people party and like 2 Shadow form tanks using other consumables.