Curse

Stormlord Alex · Mar 14, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

There's no solution.
The problem with As in GW1 is: instagib and shadowsteps.
This could be of course easily avoided and fixed in GW2 (hell, I think even in GW1), making As a versatile meele class, like meele GW1 ranger and as suggested many times here, on Guru.

It could be done in GW1 by simply overhauling most of the skills, and the class concept as a whole.

I'll keep it as succinct as possible, but the ideas I've been playing around with are...

- kill lead skips (BSS, GFS, Falling crap) - no more cramming 2 duals into a long chain to instagib. Then, buff the overall power of a single L-O-D chain to compensate for it's relative fragility compared to Warr and Derv attacks, and to make a viable way for assassins to kill stuff (in the same way that Evis+Exe kills stuff - as the main driving force of a team-wide spike).

- make offhands fun. See Bull's Strike. Isn't that totally awesome?
Yes, give offhands a side utility effect - like Bull's on Warriors - making them a useful or powerful skill to throw around outside of L-O-D chains.
As an example...
Black Spider Strike. Off-hand attack. If this follows a Lead attack, strike target foe for +X damage and poison them for Y seconds; and this skill counts as an Off-hand*.
If this attack does not follow a Lead attack, strike target foe for +X damage. If that foe is hexed, all foes in the area are Poisoned for Y seconds.

Falling Spider Strike. Off-hand attack. If this follows a Lead attack, strike target foe for +X damage and poison them for Y seconds; and this skill counts as an Off-hand*.
If this attack does not follow a Lead attack, if target foe is moving, they are knocked down and Poisoned for Y seconds. (ohh yeah, Bull's for 'sins)

*essentially, off-hands that strike targets marked with 'Lead' attacks count as an off-hand and mark target with the 'off-hand' symbol; if they do not follow Leads they do not mark the target, and have additional effects instead. Wordy, but you get the idea.

- Shadow-steps. Ugh.... Actually, they're quite fun and have something to offer in moderation. At least, make all of them half-ranged and stop them from allowing you to jump to places you shouldn't be able to - no jumping into Guild Halls to gank NPCs, for instance. With killing insta-gib combos, Shadowsteps aren't quite so bad.

- the other stuff - Deadly Arts and Shadow Arts. Essentially, I'd like to see the Assassin as a frontliner that trades hardiness and DPS-pressure for other capabilities. They spike with L-O-D, and pressure with off-hands and shut-down.
I'm still thinking, but something along the lines of - change Deadly Arts to give it spellcaster-style shutdown - energy denial, interrupts, Enchant hate, anti-spell hexes; and make Shadow Arts physical shutdown - snares, block and stance killers, damage reducing stuff and miss hexes.
Obviously, not as powerful as a full Dom Mesmer or Curse Necro respectively; but a Deadly spec 'sin would be able to more effectively pressure enemy casters, whilst a Shadow-spec 'sin would be able lineback and generally hamper the enemies' own offense.

FlamingMetroid · Mar 15, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Obviously, not as powerful as a full Dom Mesmer or Curse Necro respectively; but a Deadly spec 'sin would be able to more effectively pressure enemy casters, whilst a Shadow-spec 'sin would be able lineback and generally hamper the enemies' own offense.

Thing is, GW is a team game, as well as a game with two-class characters. Giving sins hexes is a waste of skill allotment, If an assassin needs hex cover on a target, they should get some hexes from a necro or mesmer primary, or bring a necro or mesmer on their team. The skills in the deadly art line have largely fueled many of the assassin nerfs, and giving the assassin so much power to achieve solo kills makes them flawed. Unfortunately not every class can have all the powers they want, and holding those powers back from them is what makes team synergy such an important part of Guild Wars, and makes the game what it is.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 15, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Thing is, GW is a team game, as well as a game with two-class characters. Giving sins hexes is a waste of skill allotment, If an assassin needs hex cover on a target, they should get some hexes from a necro or mesmer primary, or bring a necro or mesmer on their team.

By your reckoning, giving Dervishes enchantments is a waste of skill allotment because they could just use Enchants from the team or their secondary, too (hey! Monks get enchants, why should Dervs?

) - which is just plain silly.
In the same way that stances to increase killing power (Frenzy + Rush) are core to warrior builds; or Enchants are core to the Derv; I'd like to see hexes as the core of the Assassin - essentially, a build template would be Lead / Offhand / Dual / Alt. Offhand / Hex 1 / Hex 2 / Utility / Res
In the same way that Frenzy/Rush, Heart of Fury etc. help Warriors and Dervs fight more effectively by buffing themselves, Assassin hexes would instead weaken targets to allow the assassin to fight more effectively - making up for the overall fragility of the class by having a more in-your-face offensive style.

Quote:

The skills in the deadly art line have largely fueled many of the assassin nerfs, and giving the assassin so much power to achieve solo kills makes them flawed.

I'm not proposing crap like Shroud of Silence or Shadow Prison - they were nerfed, and rightly so. Indeed, I want to see the ability of the 'sin to get solo kills die horribly - in a game like GW, no class should be achieving kills on it's own. However, if we kill solo-kill assassins then the 'sin has absolutely nothing left; I'm thinking of a melee profession that differs to the warrior and derv in that it offers additional shutdown power (to complement Mes and Nec, not usurp them) in preference to raw damage pressure offered by Dervs and Warriors.

The assassin still wouldn't have everything - vulnerability to hexes and conditions is a large thing, a lack of actual damage outside of the L-O-D combo is another clear problem (and a very important consideration when deciding on what your frontline will be); as well as the fact assassins will still be as frail as hell - all these are still it's downfall, it's just now the assassin does something interesting other than make a target go from Alive to Dead.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Mar 15, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

What do does:
What are you people talking bout, Suffering from "Weak Build Syndrome", eh^^?
Sins can Pressure Foes down, Temple Strike, Beguiling Haze, Disrupting Dagger, and other Knock-Downs.
They also have Shroud of Silence.
You can also buff yourself with Shadow's Refuge while fighting.
After doing a combo what do you guys do? Stay infront until you can Combo again or die?
What you should do is Shadow Step to another Target (Use this only with a Fast Recharge Combo or after Assassin's Promise works).
Or S. Step out of the Frontline, There is a Heart of a Shadow, Return, Aura of Displacement, Shadow Fang, Viper's Defence and more ways to go back.
And leave the Poison or Bleeding kill them, or you might bring some Deadly Arts to finnish them off while you'r retreating or retreated.

How to fight:
I suggest not going to the Monks, ones their Health is below 75% or 90% they'll just Full Heal Themselves, take out the other Strong yet Vunrable foes, like Mes, Rits, Eles, Necros and etc.
But kill them before they kill you, Hey you can do 300 Damage in just a few seconds and live them while your away do some Deadly arts on them an Kapawe.
You can also go Deadly Arts Caster, Fight like a Sin yet stay away from battle.
I loved the Blinding Flash Assassin, Shadow Sanctuary goes good with Caster Sins, you get blind and you get healed, but Blind doesn't affect you^^.

Taking down Monks:
If you ever wanna take out the Monks first, Bring Shroud of Silence(Use only after a Combo, once your done with a Combo that's when they'll heal), Temple Strike or Beguiling Haze, All are elite but there are Non-elite Interupts too, Exhausting Strike, Distrupting Dagger and Knock Downs.

PvE:
For PvE you can do the Assassin Promise, Shadow Step to Target-> Combo Target-> Dead -> All skills are refilled -> Kill Again, until all are wiped.
Also you can go Tanking, Critical Defence/Agility-> Golden Pheonix/Black Spider/Palm Strike-> Death Blossom -> Mobius Strike -> Death Blossom/Critical Strike/Twisting Fang/Vampiric Assault.
Recommended Buffs are Live Vicarously, Vigous Spirit, Conviction or Mystic Regen.

Sidenotes
This is how to play a Sin, Alot of people jut go sin without knowing what do.
In the Early Release of Factions alot of Sins came out but most are useless, cause it takes Expertise to play a Sin.
It's quite Hard and Complex, It has a very Unique and Original fightstyle.
For Professionals(Knows the Game well) or Talented Gamers(Quite good in Playing even for Starters), only.

Remember there are 2 Types of Sins Tanks and Hit&Runs, Tanks are like Dancers you'll need to Maintain you'r Enchantments and you'r Combo very well.
Hit and Runs, can take down a Foe in 3-5 seconds, yet Fragile, so Live the Battle Field immediatley when a Task is done, Or if you can survive well(Self-Heals), Take down another until all are dead or out of your Capabilites already.

FlamingMetroid · Mar 15, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Personally, I dont like hexes on the sin, they basically alert your target to "hey, a sin's about to spike you, tell you monk to prot you up and be ready to heal." I'ld personally prefer snares and such to be products of melee skills and buffs, seeing as it is a melee class. This would also give the sin the element of surprise, making it not possible to prot against, because the debuffs would apply when the sin hits their target. My opinion of what the spike sin should do by itself is finish of soft targets below 1/2 health, or do significant damage with snares as to draw healer attention to a single target, leaving other targets open.

EDIT: and no offence [M]agna, your really smart and all, but based on your PvP assessment of the assassin, you obviously haven't played one in PvP lately. "Weak Build Syndrome" is some thing that every PvP assassin suffers from because Anet has nerfed the hell out of pretty much all of the assassin skills worth anything in PvP. HotO, Black Lotus, most deadly arts, sins don't have anything effective left to use other than maybe Shattering Assault.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 15, 2008, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Personally, I dont like hexes on the sin, they basically alert your target to "hey, a sin's about to spike you, tell you monk to prot you up and be ready to heal."

That's how it is with the current sin - they need them hexes to spike, if an Assassin hex pops up then you know an assassin is going to spike your ass and can act accordingly.

However, what I'm thinking is that the sin doesn't need the target to be marked with one of their hexes to spike it - the assassin can throw the L-O-D onto anyone regardless for ~300 damage (combos are now unconditional, remember?); the hexes are a way of pressuring the foe outside of the combo.

Ok, let's look at a shiny new skill just for an idea - Siphon Speed!

Hex Spell. For X seconds, target foe casts spells 50% slower and you run 25% faster.

We see caster hate that synergizes with the team - making a caster target more vulnerable to the Rangers and Mesmers supporting, while at the same time acting as run buff for the 'sin. And because of how the 'buff' works, the 'sin need not spike the guy he just siphoned - he can chase down someone else just as easily; indeed - it'd be smarter for him to attack the other healer while the siphoned healer is more prone to being disrupted.

FlamingMetroid · Mar 15, 2008, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

However, what I'm thinking is that the sin doesn't need the target to be marked with one of their hexes to spike it - the assassin can throw the L-O-D onto anyone regardless for ~300 damage (combos are now unconditional, remember?); the hexes are a way of pressuring the foe outside of the combo.

Ya, thats pretty much what I put out in my concept, I just think pressuring outside of the combo should be products of melee attacks. Otherwise, Necros, Mesmers, even Elementalists can do it better, and should as members of your party.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 15, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Ya, thats pretty much what I put out in my concept, I just think pressuring outside of the combo should be products of melee attacks. Otherwise, Necros, Mesmers, even Elementalists can do it better, and should as members of your party.

Basic dps pressure (the mainstay of traditional melee) for the 'sin is hard - essentially, because daggers suck balls for auto-attack damage.
My super-fun offhands allieviete this - they do something for you outside of the spike (i herd bull's strike iz gud, mass AoE-effects on some of them would be fun too); and throwing the L-O-D combo at someone outside of opportune spike moments would allow for some decent damage should it connect - L-O-D would recharge swift enough that you'd generally have it available when needed.

However, actual damage pressure is 'meh', unless we have the base damage of daggers buffed (... never gonna happen

), or - maybe - have double-attack chance buffed through the roof. But untill assassins can do any noticeable damage with standard C-Space dagger attacks, any pressure and any threat will have to come from skill uses - and weakening hexes that make the enemy more vulnerable, both to the sin and the rest of the party aren't really that much of a stretch from what the 'sin currently has...

Shameful Fear.
Hex spell. For X seconds, attacks made against target foe whilst moving strike for +Y damage.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Mar 15, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Hit and Run is good in GvG and AB, only XD!
A little in HA.

A War can actually wield Daggers^^, just get Illusionary Weaponry, Speed Buffs and Defence Buffs.
And your done^^, You'r a Dual-wielding War, With Chakrams you'll look like a Martial Artist with Shiro's Blade, no need to say^^.

Though IW Dagger-Mes are alot better^^.

BlackSephir · Mar 15, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

It could be done in GW1 by simply overhauling most of the skills, and the class concept as a whole.

I know. But isn't it more comfortable and 'fun' to just look for threads that involve Assassins and yell "remove them ololol" ?
I'm not trying to trick you. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=18
Seriously now.

Quote:

Removing them is taking the retarded way out.

I hear ya

Stormlord Alex · Mar 15, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I know. But isn't it more comfortable and 'fun' to just look for threads that involve Assassins and yell "remove them ololol" ?
I'm not trying to trick you. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...2&postcount=18
Seriously now.

Removing them is taking the easy way out. And because ANet is never gonna remove a class, we'll have to sit and watch as the 'sin gets gradually nerfed out of existence; which has the same net effect

System_Crush · Mar 15, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I feel ignored...

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

To get rid of the problem with sins, their ability to gank should be dummed down and their ability to survive at the front line needs to become less cheap tricks([skill=text]Shadow Form[/skill]) and more actual skill.

To this I'd have them prepare/plan assassinations, instead of all their chain attack skills they get "Your next successful melee attack causes Blind and Bleeding" that stack with each other up to a limit decided by the primary, or have 3/4 types of which 1 each could be used.
They would still have attack skills, but those aren't nearly as strong as they are now.

They would also gain a few defensive skills that aren't as focused on block and miss chances, but more on reducing damage or preventing KD and interupts.
Add more quickly recharging shadow steps and you have a class that would act very differently.

They would buff up with an assassination, hit the enemy monk/boss who then suffers a bunsh of conditions, damage and possibly other debuffs.
He then shadow step to safety, to either use deadly arts dagger throwing skills or ready another set of assassination skills(which would have 1 or 2 sec casting times)

So instead of a hounding class that ganks a target by repeating heavy spikes(which is an ele's job) it would be a class that preforms tactical strikes from a (hopefully) safe position and that is able to prevent interference of foes in its preparations with defensive enchantments and midranged vengeance attacks.

I think a deadly arts stance that "throws a dagger at anyone in range striking you with an attack, when it was an attack skill the effects of the skill also apply to the dagger" would be a pretty good skill for a new type of defense the assassin could have.

I'm trying to change the assassin into... well an assassin.
That is able to cripple a foe with debuffs and conditions, in a short time frame like suprising him with a disabling sneak attack, then move back and hold out until a (another) foe drops below 40% health, then pop in removing enchantments and causing bleeding, deep wound and poison and a some damage, to assassinate a foe that otherwise might have recovered.

Basically doing all that to get rid of the 1>2>3>4>5 mentality sins show, instead they'd be more like Nika in the Factions preview movie, she didn't use a 6 skill [skill=text]Moebius Strike[/skill] combo, she backstabbed Shiro and cut his wrists, in the space of 2 attacks.
That is what sins should do "Suprise! Ha, ha, 10 degen and debuffs 4 U!" not kill foes through large amounts of added damage from long combo's.

This should effectively remove their ability to solo-kill and 3 assassins on the same target would find it hard not to overwrite each others debuffs and dots.

As hexing a foe before a spike is indeed a waring, I also suggest more skills like [skill=text]Shadow Prison[/skill] and [skill=text]Return[/skill] but with more valuable durations and effects for the purpose of debuffing instead of spiking a foe, so sins would do all their debuffing along with their tactical strike, making it useful for that purpose as well.

Stella/Shin · Mar 20, 2008, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pupu

i feel sorry for Flaming Metroid.

he provides nice art and discriptions and all you people can do, is whine and flame *as always* and pretty much say nothin about the concept and take over the thread with your usless crap.

aside from that i think it is a neat idea and kudos to the effort ^^, i like it.

i agree, i think the discussion has come right off the topic

Dean Harper · Mar 20, 2008, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Guild Wars 2 needs the 6 core classes. That's it and nothing more.

thats exactly how GW2 should be

[M]agna_[C]arta · Mar 21, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Uhm, If GW is gonna have 6 Core Classes, can Anet mix Rits with Necros, Paras with Wars, Monks with Dervs and Sins with Rangers.
Cause I'll miss them XD!

System_Crush · Mar 21, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by [M]agna_[C]arta

Sins with Rangers.
Cause I'll miss them XD!

No sins with mesmers.
I could live with each profession getting a entirely new side to them, though I still believe GW would be lacking in a (what would then become a profession or 4 because of the broader scope of what a class can do) few functions and styles that would enrich the game greatly.

And the thread is actually suggesting a revision of the sin with less combo attacks and a carp load of new mechanics.
In providing constructive criticism I think it's important we state that the underlying problems of the sin won't get fixed that way and this will end up a problem riddled class.
In that it also has to be suggested how the problem of sins can be fixed and made into a worthwhile class, else your're just whining, so the thread got a lot of suggestions on how to fix sins.
I recon is not very far off topic.

[M]agna_[C]arta · Mar 21, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

............................
You can't mix that.

System_Crush · Mar 21, 2008, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by [M]agna_[C]arta

............................
You can't mix that.

Course you can:

Mesmers have an armor called rogue, skills called [skill=text]Simple Thievery[/skill].
The scrapped Disappear skill for the mesmer matches assassins u can't hit me = u can't see me overpowered defense thing.
And the ability of mesmers and shadow and deadly arts in hindering a foe is quite similar actually.
That only leaves out dagger mastery, which could be what makes makes mesmers good in PvE when single target shutdown is just a waste of time(option for half ranged thrown daggers would be nice for survivability though)

Unreal Havoc · Mar 21, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stella/Shin

i agree, i think the discussion has come right off the topic

Not to mention many bad stereotypes of what real Ninjas are/were, lol.

trialist · Mar 21, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Critical Strikes- Same effect, but change energy gain on crit break points to 4…8…12. Some assassin CC’s have changed this attribute to %chance to block, but in a game like Guild Wars, this is somewhat imbalanced. The energy gain on crit lets the assassin use many skills without losing too much energy, and with this assassin, have energy readily available after using a spiking chain. The Critical Strikes line of skills will be composed of “Jutsus” a type of perfected stance (keeping to the ‘sins’s Asian influence), that cannot be stripped and adds an IAS.

Bolded for emphasis and irony.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Perfect Form[E]- 5en 10 recharge - jutsu. For 0...25 seconds whenever you use an attack skill, that skill criticals. You attack 0...30% faster.

+

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Death Blossom- 5en 2 recharge - Melee Attack. This skill strikes for +5...40 damage and all adjacent foes take 5...40 damage. (hits once)

Hmmm....Perma criticals? With Perma IAS?? And no energy loss??? Seriously????
All your skills in jutsu are perma IAS skills with no downside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Psychotropic Serum[E]- 5en 3 cast 12 recharge - Preparation. For 5...24 seconds your attacks inflict dazed for 1...3 seconds.

+

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Swift Fists- 5en 10 recharge - jutsu. For 0...20 seconds you attack 0...40% faster.

+

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

Death Blossom- 5en 2 recharge - Melee Attack. This skill strikes for +5...40 damage and all adjacent foes take 5...40 damage. (hits once)

Perma dazed? And can be coupled with IAS and speed boost from jutsus?? And a spammable attack to go along??? Ugh... stances are separate from jutsus too and can contribute further to the gayness....

Can't be bothered to go through the rest but looks overpowered to me.