Curse

Moloch Vein · Apr 17, 2009, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Summon Ice Imp is a very strong skill when added to an entire party. Eight snaring elementalists for the price of the equal number of PvE slots is very good.

SimplyAmazing · Apr 17, 2009, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You've missed my point.

Hypothetical situation:
Let's say somebody finds a really, really good team build involving these skills. Let's say that these skills had to be cast at r9 to get the suggested elite (which is why the team build is viable). The only people who could join in with this team are people with an Asuran rank of 9 (or could sqeeze SoI in their bar, which may not be possible), which is extremely unfair.

It was bad enough when people demanded a minimum rank for Ursan, but that wasn't an actual requirement set by the game for it to be useful. It just gave you a stronger advantage. With this suggestion, a fixed cutoff point has been set.

so you're mad because you were left out of ursan runs? uwsc? ha? or the like? stop being lazy and grind your titles if you wanna play with the big boys. seriously though, it takes only a couple of hours to fill a book and turn it in for points, you can seriously max a title in half a day maybe quicker then that depending on how dedicated you are. those requirements are set by players, to make whatever run/farm they're doing to be quick, easy, and painless so that someone w/ low ranks and low experience doesnt waste the entire groups time. but regardless, i don't see how peoples lazyness even applies to this thread, it's about the asuran summons, not about being left out of mythical builds involving said skills, because you're too lazy to max a title.

Xenomortis · Apr 17, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyAmazing

so you're mad because you were left out of ursan runs? uwsc? ha? or the like? stop being lazy and grind your titles if you wanna play with the big boys. seriously though, it takes only a couple of hours to fill a book and turn it in for points, you can seriously max a title in half a day maybe quicker then that depending on how dedicated you are. those requirements are set by players, to make whatever run/farm they're doing to be quick, easy, and painless so that someone w/ low ranks and low experience doesnt waste the entire groups time. but regardless, i don't see how peoples lazyness even applies to this thread, it's about the asuran summons, not about being left out of mythical builds involving said skills, because you're too lazy to max a title.

This isn't a personal thing. I was saying why a person's suggestion was a poor one.
Regardless on how easy it is to grind a title, it is exactly that, grind. And making it necessary to grind to achieve a power a skill wouldn't otherwise have is flawed. It's bad enough these skills are linked to the title tracks.

If you have an argument against this, then put it forward. Don't just say I'm lazy though, because that's not really an argument as to why my position is a poor one.

Kattar · Apr 17, 2009, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyAmazing

snip

So you're calling someone else lazy, when you're idea will only make it easier to roll the game?

Right.

Keep the personal attacks out of this, and all, threads. First and last warning to all of you.

SimplyAmazing · Apr 17, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

first of all, a summon having 1 extra skill, non-elite especially, would not roll the game, and regardless, people work hard to get their titles up so that they can enjoy the benefits, of working hard. it's called playing the game.

second, i wasn't personally attacking, he expressed that it's extremely unfair to be left out of farming pugs for not having the requirements that they demand, as do many other's feel the same way, well, the only way to fix that problem, is to get those requirements, and that would require you to take some time and play the game instead of crying about it, it's a simple solution. sorry if you took offense, but seriously come on all i said was _lazy_.

i mean, complaining or feeling left out, because you cant do, or dont have what others have or are doing, is just silly. they're not special, balthazar didnt come down and give them special gifts or grant them any extra ability that you don't have, all they did was play the game and get their title up to be able to join in on pugs so they can have fun too.

with that said i'm finished my rant, if it lands me a forum ban than oh well, i'm just sick of people crying about stuff they can accomplish for themselves very easily. and i'm not targeting anyone in this thread or forum, i'm speaking in general.

patience is a virtue, and hard work pays off.

RupDur78 · Apr 17, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

This isn't a personal thing. I was saying why a person's suggestion was a poor one.
Regardless on how easy it is to grind a title, it is exactly that, grind. And making it necessary to grind to achieve a power a skill wouldn't otherwise have is flawed. It's bad enough these skills are linked to the title tracks.

If you have an argument against this, then put it forward. Don't just say I'm lazy though, because that's not really an argument as to why my position is a poor one.

:no one is forcing you to run that said build and if you have such a problem with thous skills and the builds that use them, for a certain area then come up with your own build and run it. also how the pve skills are set up right now for the most part you can still use them regardless of what rank you are.

upier · Apr 17, 2009, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

My idea...

Give us some way in-game to get this skills besides playing #$!#$! Polymock... Make em cost 10 zkeys, I don't care... I *hate* polymock...

This.
Oh so much.

My ritualist is the only guy that finished GWEN - and he doesn't have any of the Summons. I'd rather not have these skills then do something that I find so stupid.

draxynnic · Apr 20, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyAmazing

so you're mad because you were left out of ursan runs? uwsc? ha? or the like? stop being lazy and grind your titles if you wanna play with the big boys.

Prophecies was advertised on the framework of not requiring grind to be competitive. Not our fault cheap-WoW-wannabes (and ANet listening to them) corrupted that.

Going back on topic, the summon skills are effective enough. For a PvE slot (which may or may not be a significant cost depending on your build) and 10 energy per 60 seconds you get an ally of up to level 20 with a ranged attack and an elementalist skill that doesn't cost you energy past the initial casting (two of which would cost the same as the summon if you cast it yourself, two of which cost more - and in neither case do you have to assign attributes or spend time casting yourself). Compare that to a beastmaster, who realistically needs at least two skills (or at least one per beastmaster and one other with the area pet res skill) just to get the ally, has to assign points in an attribute, and has to pay seperately for skills, and that asura summon is looking pretty darn good.

Or compare it to that other way you can gain allies for a party - a party of 8 each with an Asura summon would at least in theory make a good substitute for a dedicated minion master - one that specialises in fiends, anyway - for a party that isn't built around exploiting physical damage. And it doesn't require corpses, allowing you to dip into that little-explored well of Other Corpse Exploitation Skills or just not be overly bothered by a lack of corpse supply.

If anything, like other PvE skills, the asura summons are borderline overpowered. They're a bit lacking in flexibility in themselves, but really, given a choice between handing Enervating Charge duty over to a facsimili Mursaat or bringing it myself, I'd dial up the fake Unseen without hesitation.

VinnyRidira · Apr 20, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyAmazing

Polymock is ridiculously easy. and in hard mode, these summons are a joke, 5 spiders put my ice imp to shame in less then 1 second, AND that's with 16 Spawning.

Obviously you do not have upwards of 400 ms ping times. Polymock would be easier if one could see the big spell cast to interrupt it in time without trying to predict it.

SimplyAmazing · Apr 20, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Prophecies was advertised on the framework of not requiring grind to be competitive. Not our fault cheap-WoW-wannabes (and ANet listening to them) corrupted that.

well, as does lots of things in life, the game has changed a lot since proph was released, and it's not really a grind spending 2.5 hours tops to fill a NM quest book and turn it in for 20k rep points. grinding in my mind is spending a week or more than 24 hours of play time to complete an objective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyRidira

Obviously you do not have upwards of 400 ms ping times. Polymock would be easier if one could see the big spell cast to interrupt it in time without trying to predict it.

get a better connection? don't know what to tell you here, but honestly even with a high ping, it's still extremely easy, highlight the enemy and when you see him cast, interrupt/block. basically, if you read the wiki, all you have to do is block his first cast (wait 2 seconds after match start), and if you use the correct pieces, it's over, and a piece of cake.

draxynnic · Apr 21, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimplyAmazing

well, as does lots of things in life, the game has changed a lot since proph was released, and it's not really a grind spending 2.5 hours tops to fill a NM quest book and turn it in for 20k rep points. grinding in my mind is spending a week or more than 24 hours of play time to complete an objective.

In my experience, getting the storyline once and finishing all the quests for an allegiance gets you around enough points for rank 4. Let's call it 20000. You'll have played through once and turned in a book. Let's say you turned in that first book in the most important allegiance title to you. That's 40000.

After that, we start grinding. It takes 2.5 hours to finish a book, you say? To get to rank 8 requires two books at Normal Mode, so that's five hours of grind. You then need a book at Hard Mode, which if we assume takes the same time (it probably won't) is 7.5 hours.

Then repeat for the other allegiances. You don't get the benefit of the first book for those, so that's on the order of 10 hours of grinding for each. Multiply by three and add to the 7.5 hours for the first, and you're looking at over a day and a half, straight, for one character. And we're assuming that the player isn't pushing forward to the tenth rank, which will require an extra two Hard Mode books each... so add another 20 hours.

And that's per character. The EOTN reputation titles are character- rather than account-based, so that 37.5-57.5 hours gets multiplied by however many characters you have. All doing the same missions over and over again - and while they do have different flavours depending on which character you play, there is a limit to this effect, especially with the Norn missions in general and Blood Washes Blood (which forces you to go bear) in particular. Say someone's shelled out for the extra slots and has a character of each primary professions - that's up to 575 hours, or, probably more reasonably, closer to 600 hours to max out their EOTN titles. Even taking into account that a player may want the credit for completing the missions in Hard Mode as well, that's over three weeks straight. I think that easily fulfills your definition of grind.

(I am aware that things like completing dungeons can reduce this figure, but I'm confident that won't stop it from being at least a straight week of repetitive activity.)

And while games change, well, you may not have noticed, but there were people who liked having a game with no grind that was tied to mechanical benefit. There are plenty of games on the market that cater to people who like to grind for mechanical benefit. Can't we even have the one that was initially aimed to us instead of Just Another WoW Clone? It wasn't as if the game wasn't successful before titles were introduced, let alone before they started granting mechanical benefits.

With all that put aside, though, I notice you haven't responded to the statement that the summons are powerful enough as they are. They don't need to be buffed.

(Oh, and as for the Polymock snipe: I was lucky. I got in with the Laceration exploit and have been donating my pieces down the line so my other characters are going through with an iboga and a couple of elementals instead of the weak starting pieces. However, in some parts of the world, 'get a better connection' is much, much easier said than done - and the fastest connection in the world doesn't help with physical distance from the server.)

SimplyAmazing · Apr 21, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

With all that put aside, though, I notice you haven't responded to the statement that the summons are powerful enough as they are. They don't need to be buffed.

actually i did a couple times, and that was the whole point of this thread to begin with, I don't believe they're powerful at all, if i go solo, say on my rit, with heals and spirits to buff the ice imp, he might be lucky to last against a mob of elder crocs, but bring him up to 4-5 spiders, he's toast in 3 seconds, granted yes i'm solo with no other party members, but this is just an example. they do have their uses, but i don't believe in anyway that they are over-powered, and the whole point is not to buff them, but to be able to add 1 skill, or at least swap out the 1 they do use, for something that you can hunt/quest/cap for the benefit of being fun new content. If you can show me an example of you dominating some viable farm, with these summons, that wouldn't be accomplished otherwise, or at least a lot harder without them, then maybe i'll change my opinion of them not being over powered, because i still believe right now they're trash, yes they're useful and have there uses, but they're not over powered. and adding 1 non-elite skill chosen by anet for us to cap for their bar, i absolutely believe would not be over-powering or dominate and change the game in anyway, for example, naga causes knock-down if enemies are weakened, well why not let us have to go into an elite area/dungeon/etc to be able to cap him a skill that causes weakness.

oh and, i didn't make this game, or change any of it, i personally enjoy a lot of the changes, and don't mind grinding to play a game i love, and if i did have a problem with the changes, i wouldn't play.