Curse

Xsiriss · May 23, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Ok well I read somewhere a bit ago, sure it was a pretty official thing, that swords were designed for low costing adrenaline skills to spam, which makes sense given their concistent damage range. This used to be kind of the case back when [Quivering Blade] was 4a, rivaling the axe counterpart [Cleave]. That and the old sever+gash combo aside, that's where the 'spammability' ends.

I can't help thinking they mixed the concepts up a little, as axes have [Penetrating Blow],[Penetrating Chop],[Keen Chop](odd but if it were 2a it would suit the whole cheap attack skills thing well), overall the average adrenaline cost for axe skills is much lower than sword ones. I'm not saying axes are OP, but there's no need to use them over a sword because they can do everything a sword can, but with more damage and at a cheaper adrenaline cost, what with axes being able to put large consistent hits as well as spike capabilities through [Eviscerate].( dismember>sever artery+gash, especially in pve where a ton of foes have no flesh)

I propose that things like [Silverwing Slash] Are reworked a little, making them more like [Penetrating Chop] and around 4a. Things like [Standing Slash] are on the right lines in my opinion as it can give a large damage boost at a reletaively low adrenaline cost.NOTE: I'm well aware of the existence of D-Slash, it just gets extremely boring only being able to spam skills over a 20second period

Or is it just too late to save the sword, and make it rival the axe?

Regulus X · May 23, 2009, 12:43 PM // 12:43

I think that the difference between sword and axe is that axe has an easier way to apply deep wound while the sword doesn't. You have to rely on the Artery/Gash two-skill combo to apply it (takes longer and can be far too easily removed in today's meta). Sword damage is also pretty steady unlike the axe. Also, Sword seems to be more utility than damage (i.e.:Cripslash, Quiver for Daze, etc..)

I think sword needs only a rework of deep wound application given the current meta and the ease of removing conditions. Maybe if they removed the conditions off applying deep wound and made them cause deep wound and perhaps even 'reward' landing hits while foe's are bleeding with some bonus damage, it would make Sword war's the new Shock Axe. Ofc, they'd also have to bear in mind balance and ask every question before implementing anything as abuse will be eminent until 100% abuse-immunity is reached. They must think it through thoroughly and not allow even the slightest window for exploitations as the community cannot be trusted and will capitalize their gains without reporting until the window's closed.

So, here's the big question for the Dev's to chew on if they contemplate buffing swordsmanship:

What's the clear purpose between the two?

Is one damage and the other utility? Are both simply a matter of damage range preference and e.skill functionalities? What function(s) segregate Axe from Sword?

The current meta must be kept in mind, too.. (counters, variants, etc..) for a more successful process to occur.

Xsiriss · May 23, 2009, 01:20 PM // 13:20

Deepwound is only half the story, axes can apply stuff (weakness+cripple too if they really want to) whilst having the capability for large amounts of damage. The swords 'utility' comes from applying conditions, if it's damage you want you definitely won't use a sword warrior over an axe in terms of PvP and PvE.

Lux Aeterna · May 23, 2009, 01:54 PM // 13:54

The general view is swords are bad and you should always use axe, with the exception of dragon slash in pve.

I think it's a bit more complicated than this - because of critical hit mechanics, axes do more damage with autoattacks - ESPECIALLY against kiting targets, where the difference makes swords inferior (axe has +13 damage vs. kiters).

Axe's popularity in the meta is due to accessible deep wound, extra damage vs. kiters, and bar compression + popular opinion saying swords are worse.

Sword however has tastier attack skills, but with a price in the bar compression area. Really the two are fairly equal, but most people just take axe based on the reputation.

I might add that with the exception of Eviscerate, the attack skills listed by OP are bad ones nobody uses, which suggests he doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Xsiriss · May 23, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Actually wise guy, i'm referring to both pve and pvp, and just because you in all you're 1337ness don't use them doesn't mean no one else does, creativity leads to some exciting stuff. I actually bother doing testing in both pve and pvp before I make suggestions, the two sundering axe attacks+strength of honour in pve cleave through anything with low adrenaline costs, it's just people prefer to run eviscarete as it compresses stuff, and in pvp people run eviscerate again because of compression.

This entire thread is not saying axes are complete leetzors compares to swords, just that the roles of the two weapons got caught up somewhere and swords are really in need of some attention, which is why I listed 'bad' skills, they need it the most. I mean who uses silverwing slash? What swords have running for them is hundred blades+MoP for pve, d-slash, quivering blade spam (which even then is limited) and crip slash.

MithranArkanere · May 23, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I use swords when I'm going to use sword skills, and axe when I'm going to use axe skills.
For me they feel like Sword are more 'tactic' while axes are more 'sheer power'.
Heroes seem to use axes better.

What you say happens with all attribute lines. You'll find more people running fire than water, for example.

silavor · May 23, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

What you say happens with all attribute lines. You'll find more people running fire than water, for example.

But people run water because they know they need slow-down hexes, and people run fire for pewpewpew. Warriors run axes for pewpewpew, and warriors run swords for... epeen comparison in PvE?

Trylo · May 23, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

iirc... spamming lower adrenaline attacks is actually less effective than just waiting for the higher adrenaline attacks (ensign made a big deal about it in some post, if someone knows where it is that would help me sound less random).

since ensign used a lot of math to prove the point, i consider his observations facts. the fact is that lower adrenaline spamming is less powerful, therefore what you are proposing would just make swords worse.

ill go look for that post now :/

A11Eur0 · May 23, 2009, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Swords in PvE are more useful than just d-slash spamming as well. I do much better in PvE with my Hundred blades build than d-slash...with PVE skills of course.

I think swords should come with more condition application ability...bleeding and deep wound, with high-energy cost cripple isn't enough especially with the amount of adrenaline required to apply them.

Giving swords the chance of double strike would be cool.

Low chance, helping to boost adrenaline gain.

Firefighter Fred · May 24, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I dunno, with the rework of Hundred blades, I think that has become a very viable option for sword warriors. Use it with sun and moon slash and an IAS, and BAM nice AoE. Works well for capping in AB

Reverend Dr · May 24, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Really when you are comparing skills that are only +damage it isn't very hard to compare and actually find out that only a handful are worth using. Really, Keen axe, Penetrating Axe are terrible. They do not add much of any damage and end up being an adrenaline sink. Numbers comparing all of those skills were run way back during prophecies, it'd just take a while to go dig them up.

Sword really does need a reworking. However it is just so late into the game that a huge reworking isn't viable and if it was rits/dervs/assassins/paragons need that overhaul first.

MagmaRed · May 24, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Sounds like you just want to use Axe skills while wielding a sword. Sorry, but I don't see why they should be similar. Sure, certain skills should be similar, but not the entire attribute. If you want what the Axe skills offer, then use an axe. If you want to use a sword, do so because of what the skills provide, not because your Crystalline looks pretty.

If there was a problem with a particular skill or 2, then suggest changes for that skill(s).

sosycpsycho · May 24, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

yes I agree with Red, I on the other hand Have had some great success running flourish and warriors endurance builds based off derv and strength attacks with a sword. Swords are not weak at all. The "Key" is be versatile, My warrior runs Sword,Scythe,Hammer,Axe
and its not hard to have a couple of each and some saved builds to do same.

Lishy · May 24, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

[Dragon slash] [Save Yourselves]
Swords, meet your inferior cousin: Axes

haggus71 · May 24, 2009, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Wait a sec. Did you use Quivering Blade to make a point? o.O

Ghost Dog · May 24, 2009, 10:19 PM // 22:19

For PvE I haven't used anything but a sword since hundred blades was reworked, but not for adrenal skills that's true.

However I used to use an axe and switched when the new hundred blades was released with sun and moon slash + whirlwind attack + barbs, MoP, splinter weapon and the new strength of honor on heroes I don't see myself using anything but a sword in PvE for a long time now.

However when it's PvP time I go hammer or axe.

Lexar · May 24, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Really there is no clear distinction for what role Anet had in mind for either swords and axes to differentiate them. There's lots of skills have equivalent versions in the other attribute line. The real difference between these atribute lines is a LOT smaller than the difference between axe and hammer, for example.

So I suggest they get merged into 1 attribute called 'bladed weapons' for more win and balance consequences be damned. Everyone will run warriors as it should be and it'll be epic and brave. People will start attacks with Excecutioners strike and end it with Final thrust.

haggus71 · May 24, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Axes are ranged from 6-28 damage. The weapon is basically a light hammer with an edge. It uses its weight to drive the edge in, which is why, when it crits, it crits bigger than a sword. A sword, while having a lower crit range, has a higher minimum damage, as it relies more on slicing(in this game), which will wound more consistent. This is why there are more DW options with an axe, while there are more crippling/bleeding ones with a sword. If you want one or the other, choose the right weapon and learn how to play, but quit acting like swords and axes should do the same thing.

Chocobo1 · May 25, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

Axes are ranged from 6-28 damage. The weapon is basically a light hammer with an edge. It uses its weight to drive the edge in, which is why, when it crits, it crits bigger than a sword. A sword, while having a lower crit range, has a higher minimum damage, as it relies more on slicing(in this game), which will wound more consistent. This is why there are more DW options with an axe, while there are more crippling/bleeding ones with a sword. If you want one or the other, choose the right weapon and learn how to play, but quit acting like swords and axes should do the same thing.

I'm sorry but do you even know what your talking about? The whole problem is Axes are pretty much swords but with greater damage and easier DW. People are wanting a difference so sword has it's own niche. You using real world explanations for criticals in the game is incredibly odd.

Lux Aeterna · May 25, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

The basic fact here is that swords are just as usable as axes.

Also I added up the whole spike on my primal rage sword and it's like 600 damage if I start with a bull's and land everything with shock and a couple of autoattacks.

bull's strike 90
sever artery 50
gash 70+100
sun and moon slash 100
savage slash 90
shock 20
autoattack twice 70

That's 590 damage in 7 seconds. Most of those attacks can hit higher numbers than I used here, for example sun and moon can do almost 120 on a crit (56 + 56 + 3 + 3) and I think bull's can do 95.

Interestingly primal rage is coming back into the gvg meta.