Curse

Killed u man · Jun 01, 2009, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Why are they even in PvP? (Not HB)

Has any of devs themselves EVER given some more information on why they made the horrid descision to have AI in PvP?

And if so, why, after all the complaints, have they still not gotten removed yet?

Yes, it's clear Anet doesn't give a shit about the PvP community, and only want the PvE community to be happy because they spend more cash, BUT on a game that was FOUNDED on PvP, can't they ATLEAST keep the most profiling element for PvE (AI) OUT OF PVP?

jimme · Jun 01, 2009, 10:39 PM // 22:39

I actually like being able to bring a hero into my pvp matches.
I mean.. they dont'fail as much as the henchies

FengShuiDove · Jun 01, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I agree that some aspects of the AI are ridiculous (it's always fun to be running a 600 and get Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond interrupted right in a row). HB would indeed be fun with no heroes...

(yes, I realize you stated this as an exemption, I'm just feeling oddly difficult today).

Still, it seems like there are two reasons to include heroes in PvP:

(1) Convenience. If a build can be run properly by a hero, then it alleviates the pressure of finding someone whether rank xxx or from guild/alliance or pug that can run it similarly. As a disclaimer, I don't think heroes should be able to run anything BETTER than a human player. Comparably perhaps, better, no way.

(2) Inability to find a replacement. Similar to number 1, but in some cases, people just don't have access to the staff necessary to be competitive or be able to play some arenas. Should inexperienced players be able to beat more skilled ones? No, but they should be able to play.

These are my thoughts. Enjoy them.

Shayne Hawke · Jun 01, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

1. Sardelac is down there.

2. Yes, please.

Killed u man · Jun 01, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

(1) Convenience. If a build can be run properly by a hero, then it alleviates the pressure of finding someone whether rank xxx or from guild/alliance or pug that can run it similarly. As a disclaimer, I don't think heroes should be able to run anything BETTER than a human player. Comparably perhaps, better, no way.

It's PLAYER vs PLAYER. If you can't find someone with rank XXX or from guild/alliance XXX than you shouldn't be PvP'ing.
There is a vital difference with PvE and PvP, which is that PvE is close to an RPG and PvP is closer to... well... A PvP game where skill matters.

If you can't fill your team with 8 REAL players, than you shouldn't be allowed in PvP, and you should go play PvE instead.
The fact that Anet themselves give the option to allow people to take Heroes only goes to show how little they care about PvP, this needs to change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

(2) Inability to find a replacement. Similar to number 1, but in some cases, people just don't have access to the staff necessary to be competitive or be able to play some arenas. Should inexperienced players be able to beat more skilled ones? No, but they should be able to play.

Same as nr1. If they CAN'T fill in 8 spots, then they SHOULDN'T be PvP'ing...

And even this last was the sole reason to have Heroes in PvP, it's NOT the reason why people bring them. People bring them because Heroes AI is REDICILOUS, and I mean RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING REDICILOUSLY overpowered. Interupting 1/4's, Getting off weapon spells before your spear/arrow hits, perfectly maintaining hexes on the enemy team, doing big aoe damage, etc...

If a game was to be released in the current state GW PvP is in, it would get laughed at, and throw in the sewer so fast even Gwen couldn't catch it. (Get the analogy?!)

In GvG, Heroways are a minor issue, mainly to be felt when Smiteway was a big deal (Smite heroes), but it's still a danger lurking in the darkness. How long before a new hexway, shitway comes out that abuses yet another aspect of Hero AI?

In HA, it's worse. In HA, you have to create builds to counter AI (Gwen and Tahlkora), abusing their weaknesses and always use exactly the same playstyle.
Where have I heard that before? Ow yeah, that's PvE...

HA is more to PvE than it is to PvP.

If Anet is too lazy/stubborn to remove Heroes from PvP, can they atleast remove HA from the PvP-BATTLE ISLANDS, because it doesn't belong there.
And hold a spot to wherever they move it for GvG, which as I said is just an accident waiting to happen.

@ Shayne:

I know, but I've NEVER seen Gaile, Regina or ANYONE even post there. I doubt they ever take a look there, let alone acually read the content of the post.
This issue has gotten too big to "just" discuss as a possible update, or as a discussion in the PvP section.
Heck, I DOUBT the devs even realize there IS a problem with Heroes in PvP.

Daesu · Jun 01, 2009, 11:03 PM // 23:03

I know for a fact that some guilds could not get enough players for GvG so they had to use heroes. They do not have a choice, unless you consider them, not taking part in GvG at all, as a choice.

They really tried to get people but most people are just not interested in a weekly GvG. If you stop them, I am almost certain that fewer guilds would participate in regular GvG.

And fyi, heroes are a huge disadvantage compared to human players and they are usually easy to beat if you know how to exploit their weaknesses. If you are really good in PvP, fighting off heroes should be easy for you.

pinguinius · Jun 01, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Why are they even in PvP? (Not HB)

Has any of devs themselves EVER given some more information on why they made the horrid descision to have AI in PvP?

And if so, why, after all the complaints, have they still not gotten removed yet?

Yes, it's clear Anet doesn't give a shit about the PvP community, and only want the PvE community to be happy because they spend more cash, BUT on a game that was FOUNDED on PvP, can't they ATLEAST keep the most profiling element for PvE (AI) OUT OF PVP?

Technically, the game was FOUNDED on PvE, because you had to do it before you could PvP.

Arkantos · Jun 01, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

And fyi, heroes are a huge disadvantage compared to human players and they are usually easy to beat if you know how to exploit their weaknesses. If you are really good in PvP, fighting off heroes should be easy for you.

Lol, really? I hope you were being sarcastic.

Anyways, apart from HB, I don't see why heroes are allowed in PvP. Sure, they fill in when people aren't there, but that's not the games fault. I want to fight players, I don't want to fight heroes, especially ones with superhuman reflexes (see: teaseway).

FengShuiDove · Jun 01, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

It's PLAYER vs PLAYER. If you can't find someone with rank XXX or from guild/alliance XXX than you shouldn't be PvP'ing.

If you can't fill your team with 8 REAL players, than you shouldn't be allowed in PvP, and you should go play PvE instead.

Same as nr1. If they CAN'T fill in 8 spots, then they SHOULDN'T be PvP'ing...

There seems to be a common theme here. I guess I'm missing the fact that anyone can buy and play Guild Wars and is entitled to be able to compete in what they paid for. This was not a discussion of buying and selling semantics, it was a suggestion thread, and I offered my opinion. If you want to be taken seriously, then get off your high horse and put yourself in someone else's shoes. Same damn argument as the high-end PvE elitists, "Well they're not good enough so they can't play." Maybe you should play PvE instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

If a game was to be released in the current state GW PvP is in, it would get laughed at, and throw in the sewer so fast even Gwen couldn't catch it. (Get the analogy?!)

If only because people, like you, who would rather exclude and humiliate than attempt to help. Rage more, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

In GvG, Heroways are a minor issue, mainly to be felt when Smiteway was a big deal (Smite heroes), but it's still a danger lurking in the darkness. How long before a new hexway, shitway comes out that abuses yet another aspect of Hero AI?

And the game is balanced around GvG, clearly. Ever watched the monthlies? How many heroes have you seen? Hm, that's probably because skill, coordination, and communication still take the cake. But I forgot, there is no entry level. There is gold cape or garbage to you.

Essentially what I'm gathering is that you think HA is imbalanced due to heroes, which I agree with due to some of the reactivities and functionalities of hero AI. But the game is balanced around GvG, and if, as you said, it's not a current problem there, then HA, RA, TA, even PvE for the longest time, all have to wait for skill changes to spawn from GvG issues.

You probably didn't even read this post, and you'll probably cut and paste individual words of my post to make it seem like I'm saying something I'm not or that I'm an idiot. I refuse to be part of this thread if you won't level with people. Goodbye, and bad luck to you.

english storm · Jun 01, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Ever thought that it's mainly PvE people that are trying to complete the zquest but the majority of PvP'er won't let them join a human group because they are inexperienced and as such forced to bring heroes? One of the worst experiences of GW is PvP if your new, as you just get shouted at and shunned unless you get extremely lucky and find a forgiving group (never happened to me yet tho!).

Anet should really consider changing the zquest pvp bounty to unrated matches. At least this way the real hardcore PvP's game won't be ruined and the PvE's can learn/experiment more and have a nicer time completing the PvP bounties. Hell, only allow Heroes in unrated matches if you like but if you do you should change the zquests to unrated matches.

Killed u man · Jun 01, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

^

When did I say people arn't allowed to compete? Being able to compete, and giving someone superhuman reflexes and/or tactics are 2 different things, you seem to have forgotten that.

Put myself in who'se shoes? Bob the PvE'er who only wants his Tiger so he can get his HoM statue and brag about it to his friends?
Certain people shouldn't have a voice, if you don't believe me, ask ANY politician you can find.

Let PvE'ers decide about PvE, but let us PvP'ers decide about PvP, and I'm pretty sure that there is a general concensus amongst the PvP community: No heroes belong in PvP.
There is not a single valid reason to have Heroes with superhuman reflexes/tactics/logic/...

I still find myself relativly calm after getting Infuse Health, under HB, getting interrupted 5 times in 1 HA run. Aswell as when I roll to a warrior, and watch Gwen as she Weapon Of Shadows herself before I can even get my Earth Shaker off. Not even to start on the fact how heroes can use skills whilst KD'ed, aswell as drop blind was mingson whilst being KD'ed.

As I recall, a Heroway guild DID manage to get a bronze trim. But you're being unfair here. You're putting heroes at the ONE thing they completely fail at, which is GvG tactics.

But then according to that reasoning, bloodspike isn't overpowered, because it has never won a Monthly...

In GvG, you still need alot of tactics in order to win, regardless of build. A Hero doesn't run flags, nor does he split. He is tied to the character that is his master and commander.

Regardless, GvG has become more and more of a "kill shit and win" playstyle. I'm pretty sure that if you shove polly a Tease hero, aswell as whatever OP hero bar you can create, they could get a silver, and maybe even gold trim.

The matter of fact is that skill-wise, Heroes outperform a real player ANY day. They don't have to target, think, reflex, ... They never have a day off, nor do they ever bitch/rage/complain.
Tacticswise, heroes are only as good as the player controlling them, mainly because there is NO AI for tactics. THIS is the reason why you don't see Heroways win monthlies. God forbid, if they introduced AI that learned a Hero how to flag and/or activly split (Which I doubt is doable, because there is so many reasoning involved), I'm pretty sure you'dd see 1 player, 7 hero teams win monthlies all the time.

Gift3d · Jun 02, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Once HA becomes active and is no longer a desolate shithole full of talentless scrubs, then you can take heroes out.

Heroes are significantly inferior to any player that has the slightest clue and is halfway decent. Being as the quality of players in guild wars is ridiculously pathetic, i'm led to believe those people are the only ones whining about it. Heroes can win the first 3 maps, so what. On any objective map, teams with heroes are crippled for not having a human player thinking for themselves without having to be micro-managed poorly. Until you're good enough to get past the first 3 maps and see what i'm talking out, your tears will unfortunately keep flowing.

When i'm having trouble finding PUGs going as low as r6+ because HA has been so severely screwed up by izzy, a hero saves time, and would be more reliable than some horrible player without a clue of how to play guild wars.

There's MUCH bigger problems with pvp than heroes. First adjust the quality of players, playing, and the game, then we'll talk about heroes.

Chocobo1 · Jun 02, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

^

When did I say people arn't allowed to compete? Being able to compete, and giving someone superhuman reflexes and/or tactics are 2 different things, you seem to have forgotten that.

Put myself in who'se shoes? Bob the PvE'er who only wants his Tiger so he can get his HoM statue and brag about it to his friends?
Certain people shouldn't have a voice, if you don't believe me, ask ANY politician you can find.

Let PvE'ers decide about PvE, but let us PvP'ers decide about PvP, and I'm pretty sure that there is a general concensus amongst the PvP community: No heroes belong in PvP.
There is not a single valid reason to have Heroes with superhuman reflexes/tactics/logic/...

I still find myself relativly calm after getting Infuse Health, under HB, getting interrupted 5 times in 1 HA run. Aswell as when I roll to a warrior, and watch Gwen as she Weapon Of Shadows herself before I can even get my Earth Shaker off. Not even to start on the fact how heroes can use skills whilst KD'ed, aswell as drop blind was mingson whilst being KD'ed.

As I recall, a Heroway guild DID manage to get a bronze trim. But you're being unfair here. You're putting heroes at the ONE thing they completely fail at, which is GvG tactics.

But then according to that reasoning, bloodspike isn't overpowered, because it has never won a Monthly...

In GvG, you still need alot of tactics in order to win, regardless of build. A Hero doesn't run flags, nor does he split. He is tied to the character that is his master and commander.

Regardless, GvG has become more and more of a "kill shit and win" playstyle. I'm pretty sure that if you shove polly a Tease hero, aswell as whatever OP hero bar you can create, they could get a silver, and maybe even gold trim.

The matter of fact is that skill-wise, Heroes outperform a real player ANY day. They don't have to target, think, reflex, ... They never have a day off, nor do they ever bitch/rage/complain.
Tacticswise, heroes are only as good as the player controlling them, mainly because there is NO AI for tactics. THIS is the reason why you don't see Heroways win monthlies. God forbid, if they introduced AI that learned a Hero how to flag and/or activly split (Which I doubt is doable, because there is so many reasoning involved), I'm pretty sure you'dd see 1 player, 7 hero teams win monthlies all the time.

Heroes defy gameplay mechanics?

Masmar · Jun 02, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Heroes are significantly inferior to any player that has the slightest clue and is halfway decent.

Unless you're running teaseway

Hanging Man · Jun 02, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

No I kind of like the fact we can have heroes in pvp. Seeing as how it is rather difficult to find more players that are up to the standards we have for pvp, heroes seem to fit the gap nicely.
Granted the AI is a little...slow at times and amazingly sharp at others, but that is to be expected from heroes.
I think it is better to throw in a hero monk or ele instead of sitting and waiting for a decent human player to throw his hat in the ring.

To cap off my two-cents

1. Better than waiting
2. Heroes run some builds better than most human people and some builds worse.

headlesshobbs · Jun 02, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Running hero builds with your own does more then well enough when it comes to gvg matches. Even when you don't have 8 players, their use is convenient enough.

mother******* /NOT signed

Thamior Shamus · Jun 02, 2009, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

I still find myself relativly calm after getting Infuse Health, under HB, getting interrupted 5 times in 1 HA run. Aswell as when I roll to a warrior, and watch Gwen as she Weapon Of Shadows herself before I can even get my Earth Shaker off. Not even to start on the fact how heroes can use skills whilst KD'ed, aswell as drop blind was mingson whilst being KD'ed.

But then according to that reasoning, bloodspike isn't overpowered, because it has never won a Monthly...

Are you serious that you don't know by now Gwen is so easy to trick with her weapon spells? She can't tell the difference between being attacked by a hammer and being attacked by a wand. As for bloodspike, it isn't overpowered. If your half smart you will have your team spread out, which means they can't spike as well.

Really people, Heroway is not that hard to beat in GvG. All you need to do is split, split, and split some more. Heroes can't split (which has been stated already) so if a team brings 3 heroes one one person, that's four people that can't split. Also if you bring a PB mes, is it really hard to PB a 2 second cast???

For those who don't know why Heroes are still allowed in PvP here's why. Without heroes, less people would be able to PvP IE. lack of people in a party. Anet doesn't want people to not PvP because they can't cuz PvP wouldn't be around if that happened. Also realize that the audience for PvE is WAY HIGHER than the audience for PvP. So we can complain all we want about heroes but really, nothing is going to change. Instead of complaining work on becoming a better PvPer so I have more of a challenge

Shayne Hawke · Jun 02, 2009, 01:50 AM // 01:50

If you're really wanting the Devs to take a look at something so badly, then you might make progress by sticking it on Linsey's discussion page. Besides that, I've never seen a Dev post anything in Sardelac, let alone see that they'd be viewing the sub-forum. I think though that there's been something done to have them not be listed in the names of people that are actively viewing a sub-forum or thread.

II Lucky Charm II · Jun 02, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

This issue has been mentioned and re-mentioned too many times and complaining about it will not cause any changes in the future.

CLOSE THREAD please

Killed u man · Jun 02, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Heroes defy gameplay mechanics?

You definatly need to Hero Battle a bit more. Heroes are known/been observed to:

-> Drop items spells whilst KD'ed (Players can't do that)
-> Move whilst KD'ed
-> Use skills whilst KD'ed
-> Run through certain obstacles (Remember the Henchman glitch, where they could jump off the map in order to reach you, hence You could kill em afterwards and exploiting their corpse in order to map "unreachable" areas)
-> More stuff which I can't think off atm.

So yes, heroes defy gameplay mechanics as such that they are NOT real players. The same way monsters can move through portals in PvE, can simply vanish, etc... heroes have certain attributes (advantages?!) real players don't have.

Quote:

Just cause a hero can interrupt quickly doesn't mean he's interrupting efficiently.

100% true, but then it becomes a random chance factor, and not a small one.
You're comparing getting a RoF interrupted to getting Infuse interrupted.

I'dd like to see how many GvG teams can manage to stay alive after their Monks have had Spirit Bond and Infuse interrupted on several occasions in a match. Mainly because these 2 skills are "last resort" skills, getting them interrupted usually means: death.

So yes, a hero might interrupt Tainted Flesh the intire game, and leave both Monks alone (if not locked), or he could also shit on both monks keeping shutdown and giving the other team the win. I'm not argueing about the fact that it's random, I'm arguing about the fact wether or not it's fair, and wether or not it belongs in a PvP (skill based) game. It doesn't...

Quote:

Are you serious that you don't know by now Gwen is so easy to trick with her weapon spells? She can't tell the difference between being attacked by a hammer and being attacked by a wand. As for bloodspike, it isn't overpowered. If your half smart you will have your team spread out, which means they can't spike as well.

Gwen is easy to trick with her weapon spells, agreed. I also stated that in my Original Post. So HOW exactly is this any different from PvE? Even if hero AI was accepted by the PvP-community, how is farming gwen (abusing "stupid" AI) different than farming charr, mindblade spectres or whatever other PvE creature.
The AI has it's flaws, but resorting to "abusing" flaws in order to win doesn't sound a whole lot like PvP to me.
On top of that, Rit weapons are still unremovable, and WoW has got a fast reacharge. I also fail to see how it is fair that your frontline has to "fake" call 2-3 different targets every 8 seconds, whilst the enemy team can just roll their heads over the keyboard for a more effective result. (With Gwen shutting keyskills down, with some luck)

Lol @ saying bspike isn't OP. That really puts your statements in prespective. When 7 shitty Necro's can beat top 20 teams, and I mean OBLIVERATE renowned and respected teams, simply by training one target down at a time, dis-allowing the enemy warriors from doing anything (If they attack, they ball up and it's free kills for the bspike), it's NOT balanced. It's overpowered.
Splitting is off no use, because a N/A with all it's lifesteal glory can survive against 99% of the bars out there. I can only imagine a good ranger kill a Necro, if he gets some dshots on vamp spirit. (And the necro doesn't fake or 40/40)

Quote:

Really people, Heroway is not that hard to beat in GvG. All you need to do is split, split, and split some more. Heroes can't split (which has been stated already) so if a team brings 3 heroes one one person, that's four people that can't split

Yeah, heroes can't split, but they don't "vanish" of the map as you seem to be stating here. Heroes don't sit down and ponder in dispear the second you start splitting on them, no... No, they do what they always do, they play the bar given to them at 99% efficiency, and go where their commander tells them to do.
For example, the old RaO smiteway COULD split perfectly. The RaO thumpers each had their batch of Heroes, giving them the option to pull off a nice arsenal of splits.

Sure, a hero on it's own will NEVER make logical GvG descisions, but how often does it happen that there is more than 2 "mini"-scrimmages going on a GvG?
Minor issues such as sending 1 hero over to the other team (flag/base) WILL put you at disadvantage, agreed, but then the enemy team has to have FLAWLESS play in order not to collapse under the Hero AI pressure.
Smiteway and Hexway come to mind. Only the best of the best could beat it, and even then. Top 5 GvG teams have been observed to collapse to R500+ Smite/Hexways, only to find all their "splitting" attempts nulified by the fact that they whiped before they could't even act proporly. Heroways with bad RaO thumpers managed to beat top 5 teams.
Imagine Top 20 GvG players controlling those Heroes...

Again, it's not even an issue of wether or not these heroes are beat-able or overpowered.
It's the fact that we're beating AI, NPC's in a PvP environment. We're litteraly farming PvP the second we're beating a Heroway, and tbh (And I HA alot) it really does NOT feel like PvP anymore. It feels like some bastard hybrid in between PvP and PvE.
It always has been issue, but now seeing every second team bring an "unbeatable" gwen, I grew tired of it. It needs to change, for PvP's sake...