Curse

sonofthort · Jun 15, 2009, 05:52 AM // 05:52

I don't think it's a matter of if you dont like it don't run it. The fact is it is very over powered compared to what other classes can do, and sins being able to complete uw in 20 minutes or less is rediculous, and decreases the value of items which other people with normally powered builds would have to work very hard to get. The idea here is to balance it. It is clearly unbalanced. One thing that alot of ppl never seem to think of tho is that instead of nerfing skills to balance things in PvE, why not buff other skills to give other classes a chance too? Ppl say RoJ is overpowered, is it, or is it that ele's are under powered? Anyways, I really didn't intend for this thread to become a debate on whether skills should be nerfed or not, as there are already tons of threads and debates about it every where on these forums, rather, if you feel that changing shadow form could be a good way to balance, this is a thread to post your ideas, and talk about how shadow form could be changed.

Saph · Jun 15, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masseur

If you don't like it, then don't do it? Hmmm, If I don't like Murder, then don't do it? Yeah, that makes sense.

Actually, that made perfect sense.

People say how its being exploited, and it is. But if there is room for exploitation, then something will be exploited. Thats the way of the world, both online and off. Obviously people are still able to perma, despite SF being nerfed 3 or 4 times. So why even bother with it.

Say they do nerf SF to the point where permaing no longer exists, you think someone somewhere wont find another skill to exploit for farming on a large scale? To me, its silly to think that anet will be able to balance every skill perfect, and the more they change skills the more people complain, regardless if its a nerf or a buff.

And so to end this off topic adventure for me. Leave SF be please. ^^

Braxton619 · Jun 15, 2009, 05:56 AM // 05:56

While you maintain this enchantment, all spells fail and all attacks miss. For each attack that missed, you lose 10...6 energy or Shadow Form ends.

Casting time: 2 seconds
Recharge: 60 seconds
Energy: 25

AKB48 · Jun 15, 2009, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Don't bother, really, there really isn't THAT much you can do with SF besides UW/FOW sc, DoA, other farming spots really don't yield much, especially after the Keg-farming nerf. Some people say they don't like SF, and would rather farm with some other character, then by all means, do it, but don't start flaming on SF, just 'cause you don't like it. leave it alone.

If SF where to be made as a defensive skill, then, why not nerf the entire farming? I mean, really, what else is there to do with SF other than farming and running to places? SF is meant for that(since the health drop is so big, there is simply no remedy for the user after it ends, especially in high level areas)

I don't see the point of nerfing SF, because it makes no sense, if you're jealous of the assas out there, then by all meanings make one, it takes less than 10 days to get your perma up and running. If you don't like it, then buzz off, there are too much that you dislike than you can change.

Just my point of view, leave the skill be, because whatever new form the skill takes on, surely it will start another chaos. It works fine, it's not overpowered, there are places where it fails, and Anet really has limited its use within DoA and ToA. Give the skill a break, really now.

Abedeus · Jun 15, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Why can't we just revert it to the state it was before? You know, in 2006/2007.

Full: For 5...17 seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but 5...41 Health.

Cost 10, cast 5, recharge 60. You couldn't maintain it alone and you had to be A/Me to make it last 2/3 of the recharge. And had a way to reduce recharge by half, but then costs go up (QZ).

sonofthort · Jun 15, 2009, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leet Tankur

While you maintain this enchantment, all spells fail and all attacks miss. For each attack that missed, you lose 10...6 energy or Shadow Form ends.

Casting time: 2 seconds
Recharge: 60 seconds
Energy: 25

I'de have to say Leet Tankur that this would completely kill shadow form. I don't think it should be murdered to the point where it can never be used again, but I think it should be changed in a way that would cause it to slow farms down a bit that use shadow form. The idea to turn it into a tanking skill where you can't do any damage would kill all builds that use it for damage, it would kill speed clears completely. If you have the skill last for a while, but then become disabled so that there is a time period that you cannot have it on you allows it to still be used for tanking, and still be used for damage based build, but would add time to the run.

kess · Jun 15, 2009, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leet Tankur

While you maintain this enchantment, all spells fail and all attacks miss. For each attack that missed, you lose 10...6 energy or Shadow Form ends.

Casting time: 2 seconds
Recharge: 60 seconds
Energy: 25

lol, this will put shadow form into the worst elite in game, you can drain out a perma energy in like 3 seconds for single enemy and 1 seconds if you multiple enemies.

Hailey Anne · Jun 15, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Just leave SF alone.
Its only use is for farming like others have already pointed out.
SF is NOT god-mode like people so often think.
If you have ever been in a UW/FoW SC then you know you have a really high chance at failing.
In order to perma anyway you either have to fill up almost half your bar anyway or spend alot of cash for cons its not free.
Just leave it alone already.

Braxton619 · Jun 15, 2009, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Fixed version:

This skill is disabled for 45 seconds. For 15 seconds, all spells that target you fail and all attacks miss. You cannot cast enchantments or hexes while Shadow Form is in effect.

Recharge: 60 seconds
Casting time: 3 seconds
Energy: 10

draxynnic · Jun 15, 2009, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

Don't bother, really, there really isn't THAT much you can do with SF besides UW/FOW sc, DoA, other farming spots really don't yield much, especially after the Keg-farming nerf. Some people say they don't like SF, and would rather farm with some other character, then by all means, do it, but don't start flaming on SF, just 'cause you don't like it. leave it alone.

Good use of it can render some missions ridiculously easy (especially missions that normally involve splitting the party like Eternal Grove and Dzagonur Bastion - you can hold up one side with a permasin while the rest of the party collapses onto the other). I'll admit to being glad of it when it happened, but that doesn't mean I think it's actually good for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leet Tankur

While you maintain this enchantment, all spells fail and all attacks miss. For each attack that missed, you lose 10...6 energy or Shadow Form ends.

Casting time: 2 seconds
Recharge: 60 seconds
Energy: 25

Elite Distortion?

The idea does have merit, but I think you're being too punishing with the numbers. Instead... leave it with its current numbers and make you lose 3..1..1 energy for each attack that missed and each spell that fails, and remove the end effect. Makes it useful for a short-term defense, but trying to tank an army while keeping it permanently up will result in it dropping quickly, especially if you're trying to do damage as well.

sonofthort · Jun 15, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hailey Anne

Just leave SF alone.
Its only use is for farming like others have already pointed out.
SF is NOT god-mode like people so often think.
If you have ever been in a UW/FoW SC then you know you have a really high chance at failing.
In order to perma anyway you either have to fill up almost half your bar anyway or spend alot of cash for cons its not free.
Just leave it alone already.

For the most part, I am pretty indifferent to the whole debate. I thought it would be interesting to read what the ppl who think it should be nerfed suggest how it should be changed. You do have to admit tho that it is a pretty rediculous skill. I showed it to my buddy who plays WoW and he thought it was retarded. Ofcourse, he thinks guildwars is retarded anyways. I was running some ppl to granite citedal earlier with my perma, and there are some areas in the south shiverpeaks with crazy amount of enemies, and I got the feeling running through these huge mobs with ease that this is simply a mockery of what guild wars used to be. I remember back in the days of prophecies seeing these huge groups of monsters getting a sense of how amazingly powerful they were, how hard it would be to take that army on, and now with shadow form they are a joke. It was sad and funny at the same time.

Forgotton200 · Jun 15, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

First off, shadow form. Makes you invincible, and can be easily kept up indefinitely. Mainly used to tank mobs without taking any damage. In my opinion, this should not be an option. It throws all strategy for protting/holding aggro out the window. This is what I'd like to see done to it.

Currently:

10e/1c/45r

Elite Enchantment Spell. For (5..21) seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss, but you deal 33% less damage. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but (5..50) Health.

My change:

15e/2c/45r

Elite Enchantment Spell. Lose your curent stance. For (5..25) seconds, all hostile Spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. When Shadow Form ends, lose all but (5..50) Health and all enchantments.

My first change was the energy and casting time. Both are fairly minor. The duration has been made slightly longer, but even with an enchantment mod, it cannot be maintained the old way.

My next change makes it so you cannot use deadly paradox to shorten the recharge, which was one of the things that made this enchantment maintainable. With glyph of swiftness, the skill recharges in ~34 seconds, which is quite fair.

I removed the deal less damage, which means you can go back to farming bosses easier.

I also added the lose all enchantments, to make it so you cannot prot your teammate who is about to lose shadow form.

Overall this change makes it impossible to maintain it the old way, and (hopefully) makes it impossible to maintain it with arcane echo. It also makes it harder to run with shadow form, but still possible. The skill is still a powerful farming skill, it just cannot be maintained.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10347384

Signed for SF nerf.

Fuzzie · Jun 15, 2009, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Skill needs to be re-written or removed from the game imo. Or anet will keep messin with it.

They cannot ever make up their minds.

Eduhard · Jun 15, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Elite Form. For 10 seconds you are a shadow and have no flesh. Have fun.

Recharge: 45 seconds
Casting time: 2 seconds
Energy: 15

MithranArkanere · Jun 15, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

With the current functionality, if youdecrease the duration, it becomes undesirable due to short duration and huge downside, but if you can maintain it all the time, it becomes too much and a working god mode for way too many areas (basically every single area with no enchant stripping and not enough PBAoE)

The original use for Shadow Form was clearly this one:
- Get behind enemy lines, do as much damage as possible without worrying about being targeted, and get the hell out of there before it's too late when you are done.

So, not dealing damage is not a good choice, because it's not a skill to tank, because Assassins are not a profession to tank.
And disabling spell casting is not a good choice, because that prevents the use of mny shadow steps, and they are required to work with it.

* If it is maintained all the time, the skill is too much except in areas with counters like signets or touch skills.
* If it can't be maintained all the time, the skill doesn't last enough to cope for it's huge downside of losing so much HP. A huge downside in an elite skill is never a good idea.

Suggestion

* Change it to:

PvE: 5Energy 0.25 ¼Activation time 30Recharge time
Elite Form. For 10...74...90 seconds, you cannot take damage from attacks, are immune to health steal skills, take 10...74...90% less elemental damage and dark damage heals you. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.
PvP: 10Energy 1Activation time 30Recharge time
Elite Form. For 10...50...60 seconds, you cannot take damage from attacks and take 10...50...60% less elemental damage. This skill is disabled for 120 seconds.

This way it's a great skill to get behind enemy lines for the begining of one single battle and take out troublesome enemies like enemies with resurrecting skills or healers, and the downsides are just time between activations that force you to leave if there is too much pressure. And still requires something against holy damage and degeneration and waiting 30 (60 PVP) seconds between recharges. Although it would require Echoes and Assassin's Promise to be changed not to affect Forms so Arcane Mimicry can't be used to copy Echo or Assassin's Promise and then recharge it all the time (Turning it into a form would prevent Arcane Mimicry from working directly to copy Shadow Form).

MissyX · Jun 15, 2009, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Yes I play with shadow form, because its fun. UW/Fow/DoA still require 8 people, granted some of the people you meet in PuGs can be shall we say unfriendly, but I have also met alot of nice people too.

I dont understand why people want this nerfed beyond use, but hey I have my FoW, full HoM, GWAMM why should I care if it is nerfed, because I actually enjoy playing in full teams.. doing something fun not doing mission over and over. And before someone says go find another game.. I did, but my friends of 2+yrs are here so Im back

Leave people to have fun the way they want to have fun, not the way you think they should. No one is telling you to use it

Capulatio · Jun 15, 2009, 08:52 AM // 08:52

I don't think it needs to be Nerfed, seriously guys every half decent skill in the game you want to nerf nowadays. Shadowform isn't one skill on your skill bar, it takes up 3, because of Glyph of Swiftness, Deadly Paradox and Shadow Form. Are you telling me that isn't enough to stop it being nerfed? You also have to have a 20% enchantment staff, AND have more than 30 energy when you cast it.

Those seem like a lot of probabilities to me, and it has been nerfed enough. The fact that you have to have weapons and armor to suit it means that it is a powerful skill but it is one that is used and afterall look at Ursan. Ursan was fricking amazing so they nerfed it, and nerfed it, and nerfed it, and nerfed it some more. Now no one uses it, you are basically making the Assassins into more Sophisticated but Weaker Warriors if you take Shadow Form out of the equation.

/unsigned.

zwei2stein · Jun 15, 2009, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Shaddow Form

As it is now + "Ends When you take damage, suffer from condition or hex or get knocked down". Basically, is mob succeeds affecting you, its GG. Limits viable areas without killing it outright.

Or, my favorite:

Elite Stance. 5e, 12r

For 5 seconds, attacks against you miss and spells cast against you fail. All damage you cause is shadow damage instead.

Kattar · Jun 15, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10375237
http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10361617
http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10356144

I would post more examples, but they've been deleted, so you can't see them anyway.

Bottom line, Shadow Form has been discussed more that almost any other skill in this forum in the past year. All the ideas have been put forth, and nothing really has gone on. All the people post all the same ideas in the "OMG SF" thread that pops up every other week (sonofthort, you're thread isn't like those, but that's generally how they run). There's nothing new here and no reason for this to continue any further. It's just the same people upping their post count anyway.

Closed.