Curse

Aldric · Jun 16, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

/unsigned since its a patently bad idea.

GW is too spread apart to limit peoples ability to just play the game on their own. There are just too many areas that have no players in them regularly for people to not be allowed to use H/H to do the mission/quest they want to.

What do you suggest for areas like this ? Have people sit in an outpost until doomsday waiting for the PuG fairy to appear?

GW was sold as a Solo/Multi player game and it is not feasable to change that philosophy at this late stage. TBH they should just uncap the amount of heros you can use in PvE , at least then we wouldnt have to take such crappy Henchman builds.

We now have the Z Quests (which I usually PuG) which is getting people more into pugging , same with Nicholas gifts but that is the right way to promote PuGs not by restricting the use of H/H any more than it already is.

Abedeus · Jun 16, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Actually, I have given way too much attention to your posts, two of them being direct provocations from your side. I guess it was my fault, I should have responded to other posts from the first, second, third and fourth page even if the brought up points were pointing out the obvious, not the alternative.

I care no longer about your opinion, feel free to troll more and post another 'epic' response because I'm going to write another 'wall of text' (like you described it) in the near future. Don't worry, it's troll-proof.

Oh, troll calling someone other a troll. That's a new one.

Dude, listen, nobody shares your point of view. You are also trolling in your own thread and don't understand basic rules of posting on a forum (for example, using the ENTER key so people don't destroy their own eyes reading your garbage). Just go away and hide under a rock with your ego problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aoeclald

When will a moderator close this? D: All this is now is ping-pong discussion and no actual debate or progress in topic. It's clear that the general masses don't want it.

I don't think OP understands this. He's just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Shasgaliel · Jun 16, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

The day it is implemented most of remaining people will just quit gw.... /unsigned.

You can think about such changes when there is a big inflow of new players not when the playerbase is reducing...

AmbientMelody · Jun 16, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khyr Lord of Kaoz

Heroes didn't destroyed GW they made GW. Because that's one thing GW offers that other games don't. If you want to play WoW, go play it. But don't take issue with what is a brilliant addition to the game.

I always enjoyed GW, but until heroes were introduced, I didn't like it as much. I'm not looking for social interaction in a game, I'm looking for enjoyment. I enjoy creating specs for me and my heroes and trying them out, to get through things solo. I paid as much money for the game as you did, maybe more. Am I less entitled to play a game my way.

Even Guilds. There are so many guilds around now, finding one with the right mix of people is like pulling teeth. Starting your own means finding like minded players to play with you, and that's like pulling teeth.

If you don't enjoy this fantastic game, because of its benefits, make some rules for yourself, start a guild and see if you can find like-minded people to play with you. But leave the rest of us out of it.

/unsigned for life

My very good friend started playing this game once NF came out. He pretty much didn't know what this game used to be back in Prophecies and Factions and for that petty reason he refused to participate in any form of pvp because in his opinion everything was imbalanced with these SF idiots running HA, all kinds of spikes and so on. When he was finally convinced to try it a bit and get some titles, like hero or gladiator, he ended up either copy-pasting a wiki build 'because everything else sucks' and telling entire team to adapt to 'fotm' just to eventually rage quit after an hour or two of playing when the same gimmick build pawned our team. Well, shit happpens ...

As for pve, he thought entire pve is basically based around doing missions as fast and efficiently as possible, then acquiring titles as fast as possible and farming UW for ectos to get some nice items. Since his first and the only character he liked in terms of gameplay was Mesmer (very pvp choice, even if he disliked pvp in this game for being not newbie-friendly and many other reasons), after being called 'useless' or kicked out of the team few times in a row by other people stating that Mesmers are ... crap, he resorted to 3 heroes + 4 henchmen strategy ... at least heroes and henchmen didn't say he is useless, right? That's as for the jerks in this game ... later, we vanquished entire Elona, Factions and half of Tyria with him and other guild mates, occasionally going for TA/HA/GvG just to quit after first two defeats (if they happened) ... from my experience he was one of the most adaptive and opportunistic people I've ever met in online games. He was also one of the best Mesmers pve/pvp wise I've got to know, he was doing what he was asked to without prompting and saved us a day few times already with well timed interrupt or hex.

Now, while we disagreed on many topics concerning Guild Wars, essentially what it really is, should be etc., some things were common:

- heroes, while fun, will never constitute for real team member, although they are better than some idiots wandering around and rushing like raged ntouka in hordes of monsters
- heroes are essential for majority of pve gimmicks to finish a location fast

So, the question is, what YOU expect of the game ... let's be honest, after you beat that X mission on NM and HM with max reward you are not really going there again, right? And now the question is, should your experience be more unique because you played in essentially human team, or less unique and quite predictable since you read a guide on wiki how to beat the mission and set up a hero team with counter on bosses/mobs. While there are two types of players out there and with the current state of things both groups can play the game how they want, it's the guys who go the EASY ROAD that get rewarded in in-game terms, since people playing the game in original prophecies spirit gain nothing besides immersion ... although sometimes that first-time immersion of doing something epic with real people is worth much more than this entire game.

Now, I was again a Prophecies player. Now, we could pick someone else who started the game at Factions and liked the game and coming up with different opinions, most probably getting used to build wars and overpowered assassins/ritualists/all kinds of spikes in competitive environment, and in pve to farming faction for the alliance, no matter how boring and stupid it used to be before fff quests were changed (now it's way more interesting to repeatedly do HM locations for it ... still, I think it's too repetitive experience. Most of my friends who used to play this game since the launch have quit this game ... few by the time of factions, most by the time of NF, last remnants by the time of EOTN, even if in my opinion EOTN was a good addition to the game and brought something unique, along with different philosophy of doing quest-like missions (which is both good and bad, but it doesn't belong to this thread ... for now).

Now, what does this experience lead me to think about it? What's my own conclusion? Fairly simple. Guild Wars is still changing, dramatically compared to initial release. Many people were put off by the changes, so they quit and don't even care to share their views on this forum for any longer since they freely admit it's a lost cause. Yes, perhaps it's a lost cause, but don't forget GW2 is in the making. None of you want Anet to repeat the errors of GW1, right? I think you will agree with this simple wish no matter since what campaign you play this game. Now, simply imagine that you end up playing GW2 in a year time, just to realise after another year that expansion completely changed your favourite game and it's no longer that fun, since it changed core aspects of the game. What's next conclusion? Fairly simple as well. In my opinion game developer when he releases his game shouldn't change core basics of the game, because it's disloyal to current fans of the game and possibly game-breaking for them. Improve or add something, okay, but think about the implications on initial release of the game! Personally I have high respect for games such as D2 or EVE because they pretty much stayed true to their core game aspects. Now, GW is something completely different, because from the time perspective game was changing very dramatically, not always in the good direction. I think you will be able to agree with this vague statement. Now, your turn.

---------------------------------

EDIT: Made 'wall of text' readable, for some - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...1&postcount=74

------------------------------------------

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 16, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

We've already seen this idea has not gone over well with anyone except the most passionate hero haters. Close the thread already, its only going to provoke endless flaming and here I am without my BBQ sause.

[edit] A paragraph with 22 lines of text in it! LOL!

AmbientMelody · Jun 16, 2009, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

We've already seen this idea has not gone over well with anyone except the most passionate hero haters. Close the thread already, its only going to provoke endless flaming and here I am without my BBQ sause.

[edit] A paragraph with 22 lines of text in it! LOL!

I'm not a passionate hero hater and never was. I simply disagree with the way how they were implemented to the game, without thinking at all about possible implications. It's changing core game concept ... you could as well make all assassins lead attacks have +200 damage and 1/4 second casting time and never ask yourself what will happen in the short and long term once update goes live. Oh, and stop ordering me or anyone else to close the topic down. If it gets closed, it will be due to flames of other people, because I have no intention to flame anybody. It doesn't mean I will stay idly by and let every jerk accuse or insult me for whatever sick reason born in his head.

Btw, if you actually started reading or paid any attention, then you wouldn't even count how many lines a paragraph has. Perhaps I expect too much of todays people who can't even read a book because it's too long.

Tenebrae · Jun 16, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

We've already seen this idea has not gone over well with anyone except the most passionate hero haters. Close the thread already, its only going to provoke endless flaming and here I am without my BBQ sause.

Agree but heroes must be removed from PvP except HB.

Lagg · Jun 16, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

/unsigned, despite agreeing with you

What you propose should have been the case from day 1.

Right now, it's completely unfair for anyone into Vanquishing.

8 Heroes in PvE, plox.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 16, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

I'm not a passionate hero hater and never was. I simply disagree with the way how they were implemented to the game, without thinking at all about possible implications. It's changing core game concept ... you could as well make all assassins lead attacks have +200 damage and 1/4 second casting time and never ask yourself what will happen in the short and long term once update goes live. Oh, and stop ordering me or anyone else to close the topic down. If it gets closed, it will be due to flames of other people, because I have no intention to flame anybody. It doesn't mean I will stay idly by and let every jerk accuse or insult me for whatever sick reason born in his head.

Btw, if you actually started reading or paid any attention, then you wouldn't even count how many lines a paragraph has. Perhaps I expect too much of todays people who can't even read a book because it's too long.

I'v read over 500 novels in the past 10 years and you need to learn how to write out a paragraph. Seriously. I did read your wall of text and nothing in it made any difference.

I didn't order anyone to do anything, stop being so sensitive and insecure like I'm making you or anyone else bow down and kiss my toenails. I'm not. Also, I would count lines regardless of how good or bad it was. That paragraph was a monster.

Guildwars is the way it is, you might as well accept it unless you can get a good majority of the playerbase to back up your ideas. But in order to do that you first have to have a good idea, which you did not have in this thread. Also when you write something on a public forum, expect brutally honest replies.
I'm being polite and you do seem like either an anti hero player or you just want to annoy everyone who likes heroes (trolling). Judging from most of your replies, I'd say you did annoy a few people. Not me though.

But I do agree that Heroes have no place in pvp if you can group with other players. But if you can't find other players to group with, then heroes are a great alternative. If you can beat a human player, but not a hero, then lol.

I'm not a big time pvp player so I havnt be exposed to heroes in pvp outside HB. But as many pvp players are less than nice people, I find a small measure of pleasure in their frustration.

But take no pleasure in the frustration of the cool pvpers.

Point is, relax.

PS: Take your time when writing things out from now on. Don't get all uptight and duckbottomed.

glacialphoenix · Jun 16, 2009, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

I simply disagree with the way how they were implemented to the game, without thinking at all about possible implications.

Unfortunately for you, they're already implemented. They've also been around long enough that if you further limit the number of heroes/henchies allowed per person, the situation will just get worse. Do you really think people will suddenly go 'oh, let's PUG' the moment you remove the hero option? They won't. Those who already have an established circle will continue playing with the established circle.

You already said yourself that various PUG teams were rejecting your friend because he was playing a Mesmer. This attitude isn't going to change even if you remove heroes. The less popular classes still won't find a place in PUG teams - and if you remove heroes or limit them further, they're going to be stuck.

AmbientMelody · Jun 16, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I'v read over 500 novels in the past 10 years and you need to learn how to write out a paragraph. Seriously. I did read your wall of text and nothing in it made any difference.

I didn't order anyone to do anything, stop being so sensitive and insecure like I'm making you or anyone else bow down and kiss my toenails. I'm not. Also, I would count lines regardless of how good or bad it was. That paragraph was a monster.

Guildwars is the way it is, you might as well accept it unless you can get a good majority of the playerbase to back up your ideas. But in order to do that you first have to have a good idea, which you did not have in this thread. Also when you write something on a public forum, expect brutally honest replies.
I'm being polite and you do seem like either an anti hero player or you just want to annoy everyone who likes heroes (trolling). Judging from most of your replies, I'd say you did annoy a few people. Not me though.

But I do agree that Heroes have no place in pvp if you can group with other players. But if you can't find other players to group with, then heroes are a great alternative. If you can beat a human player, but not a hero, then lol.

I'm not a big time pvp player so I havnt be exposed to heroes in pvp outside HB. But as many pvp players are less than nice people, I find a small measure of pleasure in their frustration.

But take no pleasure in the frustration of the cool pvpers.

Point is, relax.

PS: Take your time when writing things out from now on. Don't get all uptight and duckbottomed.

Yes, I believe you and upper poster are right, that this kind of thinking should've been applied since day 1. On the other hand, perhaps I will be able to raise some kind of awareness in current players and Anet will notice that implementation of heroes in original guild wars had many drawbacks and will put forward a solution to limit that problem.

Now, as for said Mesmer, I find the class to be very useful in pve, it's just some kind of sick stereotyping that makes people reject them to the team. Sure, they are not your usual damage dealers so it might not be too wise to invite 4 mesmers to the team, unlike 4 elementalists but let's not forget how adaptive that class is. Though, I must say they got many good pve skills later in game and as such in old Prophecies many people got used to 'moderately useless' stereotype of Mesmer, similar with Ranger as well. Let's not forget back at first chapter of the game, game devs thought most of us would play pve for fun and to unlock skills in order to jump into pvp, since entire pve was meant to be impression-making introduction for newbies and place to hang out with friends, not the core game.

Abedeus · Jun 16, 2009, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

As for trolling, I remember how you were trolling over gw.pl with your idiotic posts upping post count each day ... too bad you got banned for behaving like that. Looks like your posting habits didn't change a tiny bit since that day.

Ah, arguments ad hoc. I so love them. Pointless and don't bring anything constructive.

I for one have no idea who you are. Changing nicknames/avoiding gw.pl users/other forums' users/multiple personality disorder? Whatever, I don't care.

Listen to glacialphoenix.

Quote:

Unfortunately for you, they're already implemented. They've also been around long enough that if you further limit the number of heroes/henchies allowed per person, the situation will just get worse. Do you really think people will suddenly go 'oh, let's PUG' the moment you remove the hero option? They won't. Those who already have an established circle will continue playing with the established circle.

If they had removed heroes, and I would be still playing (right now, I only come to farm some glads, faction and maybe farm a bit out of boredom), I wouldn't go pugging. Henches are still better than the average PuG player. Or I would give my friend or two a whisper and get playing together, then fill the gaps with... HENCHES.

People won't pug. They won't play at all, that's it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Now, as for said Mesmer, I find the class to be very useful in pve, it's just some kind of sick stereotyping that makes people reject them to the team. Sure, they are not your usual damage dealers so it might not be too wise to invite 4 mesmers to the team, unlike 4 elementalists but let's not forget how adaptive that class in. Though, I must say they got many good pve skills later in game and as such in old Prophecies many people got used to 'moderately useless' stereotype of Mesmer, similar with Ranger as well. Let's not forget back at first chapter of the game, game devs thought most of us would play pve for fun and to unlock skills in order to jump into pvp, since entire pve was meant to be impression-making introduction for newbies and place to hang out with friends, not the core game.

I think so too, he's the easiest class for me, but PuGs don't take Mesmers unless for Cryway.

You wanted proof of that 75%? Read the thread, because I can see only 1 /signed and that's on the first page.

Also:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0137110&page=2

There were more threads with polls and all, but you should get the idea. A lot of people not only support heroes, they also want more heroes.

In other words, you are the minority here. Go away and stop trolling your own thread, you are never going to change your opinion and always will argue about it.

AmbientMelody · Jun 16, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Ah, arguments ad hoc. I so love them. Pointless and don't bring anything constructive.

I for one have no idea who you are. Changing nicknames/avoiding gw.pl users/other forums' users/multiple personality disorder? Whatever, I don't care.

Listen to glacialphoenix.

If they had removed heroes, and I would be still playing (right now, I only come to farm some glads, faction and maybe farm a bit out of boredom), I wouldn't go pugging. Henches are still better than the average PuG player. Or I would give my friend or two a whisper and get playing together, then fill the gaps with... HENCHES.

People won't pug. They won't play at all, that's it.

I think so too, he's the easiest class for me, but PuGs don't take Mesmers unless for Cryway.

You wanted proof of that 75%? Read the thread, because I can see only 1 /signed and that's on the first page.

Also:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0137110&page=2

There were more threads with polls and all, but you should get the idea. A lot of people not only support heroes, they also want more heroes.

In other words, you are the minority here. Go away and stop trolling your own thread, you are never going to change your opinion and always will argue about it.

I believe we are done with arguing over this, right? Good.

Stick to the topic now. I might be a minority, or vocal minority representing silent majority, who the hell knows since I'm not making statistics. Guess what, it doesn't really matter.

Chieftain Heavyhand · Jun 16, 2009, 11:30 AM // 11:30

I remember how it was before heroes and it was not the Good old days of PUGing it was the Bad old days of PUGing.

Ask your self why people don't PUG as much anymore? It has very little to do with heroes and everything to do with PUGs. Rude, obnoxious, crybaby, immature, demanding, Elitist as well as ignoramus players who demand you play how they want you to play, or players who had horrible builds and demanded you play the way they wanted you to play, rage quitting or players who would stop healing others. So when I hear the good old days of PUGing I have to ask what was good about it. Most of us played with henchmen instead.

PUGs killed PUGs not heroes.

Good guilds and alliances are the only way to "PUG" PUGs in towns lack any team spirit.

The main thing that was and still is wrong with PUGs is what we see on Guru every other day, people dictating how others should play the game.

This post is especially one of those types where a person thinks the game should be played how they want it to and to hell with how others enjoy playing, I love heroes because it allows you to play around with builds, most of you guys who hate them should to because you get to dictate almost every thing they do without them talking back.

I think things are fine how they are and if anything they should allow us to take 7-11 heroes along or be able to set up henchmen's builds when you team up with them. When I want to PUG I do so with my alliance. The last PUG group I joined was the last PUG group I will ever join. If I want to listen to a bunch of bickering High School nonsense I'll become a High School teacher. Now that we have heroes and I have found a good Guild with a strong Alliance I don't have to and I am 100% against anyone forcing me to by taking away something that they honestly don't have to do.

If you want to PUG then PUG away, but I think the reason you are asking to force others to is because there aren't many out of the millions of players in this game who want to play how you want to force them to.

/UNSIGNED!

HuntMaster Avatar · Jun 16, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Oh man, if they ever do allow 7 heroes in a single party(1 player +7 heroes) I will never log off!

Thats like the super nanoo wet dream.

I'd also allow mesmers in my group. Mesmer's are the total shutdown profession. If a mesmer is ready for your build, then you ain't doing jack, jack.

If Gw was Magic the gathering, a mesmer would be a blue/red creature.
Tap Mesmer to counter target spell and deal XXX damage to nooby players.

We need a mesmer/assassin build to shut down melee and casters at the same time. Call the build "Spirit breakers" cause players would not even want to play anymore.

Kattar · Jun 16, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Abedeus, AmbientMelody, if you'd like to continue your discussion, then do so via private message. Also, don't usermod. It's the quickest way to piss other people off.

And since we're mostly off topic anyway, there's no need for this thread to continue. This forum is not the place to attack each other. If you have a problem, you take care of it via private message, as I mentioned earlier.

This issue is closed as far as I'm concerned, and will hear no more about it.

Closed.