Curse

AmbientMelody · Jun 15, 2009, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

I'd like to think of heroes as a reward for having already pugged through Prophecies and Factions for almost 2 years. Now if you don't have enough guildies or friends on you can bring a hero instead of some moron.

If you want to play with people go out and make some friends. Join a guild with more than two people.

Let the rest of us play the game how we want to.

/notsigned

Perhaps a singleplayer game is what you ask for ... what for playing in multiplayer then? To met few people? Some of us actually enjoyed PUGs and met a lot of interesting and cool people in the game that way. I tell you, I met most of good players through PUGging by actually playing and talking with them, not by spamming messages 'X are recruiting Y' and playing with completely random people that happened to join your guild. Unless all of you have like 40+ real life friends and all of them play guild wars and wish to create a guild (quite impractical, no?).

Oh, and before some of you start throwing idiotic accuses of my private life, think twice what you ask for.

Well, if your mentality is based around 'winning-winning-winning' all the time no matter the cost, it's your thing.

Practically speaking, pve is hardly challenging with good hero set, of course you are free to accuse me of being a retarded idiot incapable of using heroes/henches in pve whilst being an individual who failed his own life and seeks a 'paradise world' in computer games.

Kattar · Jun 15, 2009, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Vilaptca isn't trolling.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling.

AmbientMelody · Jun 15, 2009, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

Vilaptca isn't trolling.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling.

The comment wasn't directly aimed to him. So much for fast replies without reading the context.

Pistachio · Jun 15, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

It almost seems as if the only way to get the good ole' PUG days back would be to expand the player base. I had always thought Heroes were introduced into the game party because players were being spread a bit too thin over three campaigns. So, when it was hard to find a full PUG, you could supplement the real players with your heroes. It is unfortunate, I agree, that an online multiplayer game is so often played alone, but that is the nature of things I suppose. I don't think placing any strong restrictions on heroes would change things much. Most missions would still be empty as ever, and without a decent alternative to beat it with no other players.

aoeclald · Jun 15, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

I don't refer to 'unsigned' but actual worth of some posts in terms of contributing or not at all to the topic in my opinion. I like criticism backed up with own opinion and alternative solution. I have no respect at all for useless posts. I won't even bother quoting their authors.

To the OP:

Criticism: Though your idea has been argued many times before, the time it would take to make this change will probably do no good as ANet's direction is moving more and more towards Guild Wars 2. Already the team that manages Guild Wars is quite small by itself hence the late monthly updates.

Also, for some people on different schedules that, even if they wanted to find people, there are simply not a lot of capable people online to do said activities with. A perfect example are Australians who play when most North and South Americans are sleeping. An Australian posted earlier saying that even in the "Good Old Days", it was quite tedious to find a group and so I support her claim and say that now it would be quite impossible.

With that as a segway, right now, as it has been stated multiple times before, we do get the choice whether we want to PUG or go with heroes. Considering that most outposts are generally empty, the latter is chosen almost always. What can you do if you don't have Nightfall/EotN campaign , and thus no heroes? I have a real life friend who plays with only Factions and Prophecies and still does a decent job of finding groups for missions. After a brief break I took from the game, I came back to see him trump the Lich with a full team of reals. So, as difficult as it may appear, people are still out PUG'ing and getting the help from friends (I helped him quite a bit) and guildies. Something tells me that the most of the people here who are wanting this change do not try hard enough to PUG and are probably culprits themselves of doing H/H because they CAN. With your suggestion, they will be forced to and they will then be reciting the saying: "Be careful what you wish for!"

My Opinion:

I do not believe this change would benefit the guild wars community as it stands. Right now people can get the best of both worlds; with my guild, I often do human-only teams on our regular Friday evening outings and we do have successful runs. I am also able to ask friends and guildies to attend for trivial activities, such as small vanquishes or even a NM Mission and can even then get nearly full human turnouts. However, there are times that I am on when a lot of my guildies are not, and then I get the benefit of having heroes and henchmen to progress myself without having to rely on the help of friends and guildies and give them the playtime that they deserve.

Alternative Solution:

In my honest opinion, the only alternative solution is to drop this and keep the system the way it is. Though in PvP it has brought about some poor tactics, yet great wins, it is still an interesting turn in direction. In fact, I played at the release of Nightfall and in HA, you could have as many heroes as you wanted. A friend and myself went in with 6 Searing Flames elementalists and got loads of fame. Now, you can't do that anymore, so you can already see they have placed restrictions in places where they were necessary. Once again, ANet gave the option to the people to bring a hero or two, however most of the great teams are not composed of a hero at all.

---

Now, to AmbientMelody... I read your first post and you didn't even do any of what you just asked. I did not see criticism, your opinion, or an alternative solution. Also, your repetitive posting about arguing with a lot of the recent posters is quite childish. You've said your peace, now get over yourself.

Coast · Jun 15, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Guild Wars - depending on e-zine/site it's classified as either Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game or Cooperative Online Role-Playing Game.

In none of the reviews it's actually stated you will end up playing alone with h/h unless you are in active guild and in none of the reviews 'competitive ladder high-skill based pvp games' are actually marked as 'go with noob heroes and farm fame'. I guess the way what this game now is and how it is advertised are two different things, because I see the game marked as what it was upon release, while degrading further all the time.

So much for the 'at least 4 humans to play in HM on 8/12 party limit area'

Looks like good, old system back in D2 with scaling hit points of monsters depending on number of players was best. Yes, I admit freely Anet failed, but the guys at least tried and would use at least some of your feedback. Being utterly conservative is not going to improve things.

I remember what this game used to be and my reasoning based on two pages of posts leads me to conclusion that destroying team & socialising spirit with other, unknown people on your way in pve was an IMPROVEMENT, right? Well, couldn't care less, I see tons of those kind of a big deal r3-5 guys that are 'offline' in the status all the time, if not 'do not disturb' or 'afk' playing with h/h all the day long, accumulating gay titles and boosting their e-peen. So much for the teamplay, so much for the playing with other people outside your guild, so much for the first immersion this game gave me. And it was good, very good.

I guess they should re-brand the game as 'E-peen title show off' or 'Online Artificial Intelligence Allies Simulator'

'Go ahead .. make my day .. punk'

Did u get out of presearing yet?

Verene · Jun 15, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Considering the fact that the back of the game - the back of Prophecies, even! - says "Play with your friends or play with ours - Join with friends or play solo with a band of skilled henchmen"...yeah, I'm pretty sure the game always meant to allow people to play how they want to.

And even back when I only had Prophecies and Factions I'd never PUG. The very few times I've ever PUGed, it was a disaster. These days there are more people looking for PUGs because of the Z-Quest missions, but 99% of them are looking for HM which I have no interest in doing.

I basically only play with my brother, or one of my handful of friends that plays the game. We're not always online the same time. I've a feeling there are a whole bunch of people in the same boat. So why should we be punished because you can't be bothered to find yourself a decent active PvE guild to play with?

Not going to comment on heroes in PvP because I don't play PvP outside of the occasional RA.

But really, the only things with heroes I'd like to see is 1) get rid of the "you must have this hero along" thing in certain quests in Nightfall, 2) allow seven-hero teams, and 3) allow them to pick up bundles.

Shadowhaze · Jun 15, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

I'm going to have to say /unsigned.

I do enjoy playing with people, but often that's not always possible (as someone said, not every outpost is busting at the seams with people/professions).

And with recent ZQ pugging I've had some great groups, then there have been horrid groups.

(Ex - leader insisting I (Mo) bring Rebirth. I had UA on bar and I was sitting there for a few minutes trying to explain (after pinging build) that it essentially does the same thing and whatnot. With them seeming to not even listen to what I was saying (or looking at my bar), they ported us to a town with a skill person so I could buy Rebirth. Needless to say I left and did the mission with a friend and our heroes. We did it in no time. lol.

Then there was another with a monk trying to be the tank.

Ooh and so many more. lol)

But yeah, I would like to keep the options open as they are because it isn't always possible to get a team together/get a group of people that have an idea of what they're doing.

Ebony Shadowheart · Jun 15, 2009, 05:29 PM // 17:29

/start sarcasm

Oh yes YES! Take away my heroes and my ability to play how I please!

/end sarcasm

Seriously, if they take away/reduce heroes, I'll just go back to using henchman.

I beat Prophecies with hench before heroes

I beat Factions with hench before heroes

I do HM with hench when my fiance isn't around to finish out the team

....so how is this forcing me to play with people again?

Removing/reducing hero use isn't going to make people PuG again. Good players, and fewer azzholes will make people want to PuG. That simple.

/not signed!!!

spirit of defeat · Jun 15, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

I didn't read all the comment but from what I've seen Nobody talks about the pvp side?
because I agree on the pvp side of his statement.
pvp should be people against people........

Ebony Shadowheart · Jun 15, 2009, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

I didn't read all the comment but from what I've seen Nobody talks about the pvp side?
because I agree on the pvp side of his statement.
pvp should be people against people........

Generally speaking I don't play PvP in areas where heroes can be taken. HA and TA are filled with too many elitist punks that need to have their heads bashed in so that they realize the game is about FUN, not farming fame or even winning necessarily.

That being said, yes I can see how people have issues with heroes being in TA, HA, and even GvG, considering that they are 'intended' to be human vs human environments. I believe there is already a limit to how many heroes (or hench, as they are ALSO available) a group can take into these arenas.

However, the only reason people b*tch about heroes being allowed is because they can be skilled to player specifications, and tend to be 'slightly' smarter than hench. There was far less b*tching when it was simply hench as the alternative for teams lacking players, and hench have always been an option.

Hench or heroes being available in these PvP areas gives some groups the ability to compete when in other cases they may not have enough people. My guild/alliance for example would not have enough people interested to field a full 8 person GvG team. If we wanted to do that, we would have to use heroes or hench. So it just opens the field to more teams by having options.

Operative 14 · Jun 15, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

... Some of us actually enjoyed PUGs and met a lot of interesting and cool people in the game that way. ...

That's great, I applaud the fact that you've been able to do so. Why should the rest of us be forced to do so however? If you'll bother to read any of the other posts, you'll find an overwhelming majority of the people share this sentiment. You want to radically alter the way this game is played to suit your wants and desires (and not even your needs). You want people to be forced to use PUGs because you have more fun playing that way.

No, this isn't a single player game. You mentioned in the same post as the above quote that you've met more good players by PUGing than making random 'Guild X is recruiting player' advertisements. My experience, and many others experience, has differed from yours. My good old days of remembering PUGing Prophecies and Factions was spending nearly 3 weeks on each mission, trying to find a group, any group, that could actually complete the quest. This was due in part to some rather inept teams, but it was also due to my own real life limitations. However, I remember more recent PUGing experiences, like doing Heart of the Shiverpeaks or Destruction's Depths in Eye of the North, and I had some great, memorable experiences through that. Now, on the flipside, my guild is filled with incredible people that I greatly enjoy playing with based upon those random advertisements (which is all "LFG..." is, by the way).

If you're mad at people not expressing alternative ideas.. I can't imagine you'd recive them any better. Frankly, what we have now works. You can still PUG, I've done it, others have done it. My question is, why are you not able to? Unless you carry your vile, dominereing attitude you've shown here into the game as well - which is a main reason why I don't PUG much anymore.

Otherwise, my suggestion would be to take the message that has been expressed in these four pages to heart. In so many words; it's great that you've been able to PUG and enjoy it. I didn't. Leave the option for people to do both, instead of forcing us to do only one.

Imagine how you'd react if someone popped in and suggested we could only use hero and henchmen teams. Given the acidity you've shown in your posts, I hardly believe you would placidly give alternative suggestions to such a thing. And the community would show as much vehemence to that idea as they've shown yours.

AmbientMelody · Jun 15, 2009, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

Imagine how you'd react if someone popped in and suggested we could only use hero and henchmen teams. Given the acidity you've shown in your posts, I hardly believe you would placidly give alternative suggestions to such a thing. And the community would show as much vehemence to that idea as they've shown yours.

That would be a complete disaster

I agree with what has been said, obvious flaws in theory and practise such as different time zones or problem with some missions or areas if you insist to do them solely on your own (but like has been proven, it's possible even with just hench). What personally started to put me off for some time were already mentioned silent individuals who would do everything with h/h and refuse any offer of teamwork. I don't know how many of them had terrible experiences with PUGs or are unsocial souls who'd rather do everything on their own in pve and in pvp resort to random arenas and hero battles, often playing in the former 'solo' instead of working as a player in the team.

Another point is obvious abuse in pvp ... yes, it hurts if you have just 5,6 or 7 people and can't enter gvg/ha. It sux, because if you resort to team arenas then 2-3 players won't be able to participate, unless they invite some random people. Though, let's not forget HA was once 6vs6 and I liked that HA way better because it destroyed spike builds for some time and allowed bigger diversity due to balanced/pressure teams instead of spike/hex spam builds. Back then there was some kind of progression ... 3-4 people? Let's go TA! 5-6 people? Let's go HA! 7-8 people? Let's get a guest and try GvG!

Like you see, repairing the broken is not only the case with heroes but entire game. It also pretty much shows that it's hard to get a good time schedule outside guild and often you can't really count on guys over your friend list because they are often busy with something else at that time. The problem which has arisen with heroes has many layers and is quite complicated to be honest.

Let's look at something else now - said PUGs. For some a lot of fun meeting real people and motivation to do so due to limited 'brainset' of henchmen back at proph and factions, for the other complete disaster (i.e. trying to do thunderkeep for 30 times, for a full month, people often committing exactly the same error 10 times etc.). Thing is, the people who fail that mission over and over with you are more likely to finally learn or acknowledge something and move on and beat that mission, while with the introduction of heroes everyone almost seems to go hero/hench checking first entire mission on guild wiki with no respect whatsover about the spoilers of the plot, about exploring something on your own. Just that ... let's eliminate random human factor and just do steps 1..2...3...4 ... bam, mission completed.

Another thing worth pointing out are obvious changes of attitude in players ... if we had heroes since prophecies but areas were designed intelligently, it would make sense to get 3-4 players and get heroes for fast-reflexes action such as interruping or healing or to fill profession gap in your team ... if people actually learned heroes are a good, but not necessary thing, most propably we would have a good mix of only human, hero and human and human + hero/hench teams, leaving those who want to solo - solo, and the rest going along. I understand it can be a painful time to coordinate a 8-players team, it's repetetive and boring and say over and over what everyone is expected to do, check his skillbar, suggest something, tell the strategy ... I remember spending tons of time in outposts discussing strategy and forming a team, but for me it was actually a feature, and good one even if frustrating at times. It was kind of interesting most of the time to get along with your team before a battle instead of just mindlessly jumping into action and leaving the team as soon as mission ends without a word or vague 'bye' 'cool! cyas' etc. Again, it was a two-edge blade. Some liked it, some not.

Now, we could argue that Anet pushed things too far with heroes because they didn't really think about possible impact on the game and most of all, players mentality. I see more and more players being told to actually skip a game cinematic instead of being able to know the story on spot, people shouting 'lfg!' being told to 1) shut up 2) stop spamming 3) get h/h and go out, people being told to copy-paste pvx wiki builds instead of trying to think and make something good on their own with their current skills.

Implementation of heroes has divided the guild wars community, especially newbies from established players. Why? Established players have guilds and friends, know something about the game. Newbies are more likely than not just jump straight in the fight with h/h after being rejected from teams for some idiotic reasons. Older player is as well more likely to invite a hero/hench to the team in a place of another player to help him out or do a mission together. Now, I think you know what I wanted to basically say, but I will let you guess it.

If we at least limited hero usage, some people would reconsider going with small 2-3 player groups into harder areas instead of soloing everything. People over normal mode won't be really affected and every player in the team will have an option to bring his best hero, instead of being told to kick him out 'because he sucks' and the like. We all were newbs at a time and it's just a game. I agree, it shouldn't be frustrating but I'm missing it's old, friendly, adventurous feeling. Back in proph there was way more time for some consideration, tactics, chit-chat with other people. FA basically brought more 'action', or to describe it - 'think less, do faster'. In my opinion it was tragic shift in pve. Then came NF - theoretically a balance between Prophecies and FA, in fact it was still more biased into 'fast fast fast never do that again' with the introduction of heroes.

Now, I must say EOTN was very interesting in the end because most dungeons are well designed that it makes sense to go with players instead since it makes things a lot easier and heroes were no longer that dependable due to numerous traps and the like. Although, I hated what Ursan did to pve because while human PUGs became more popular, it made the game too easy and basically stripped off everything what's unique of the 10 professions in the game ... and that was wrong and huge step backward. I could go on and go on, but let's say it's your turn now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Did u get out of presearing yet?

Presearing was a cool place but I left it at level 7 with my first char. Searing was even better, although I missed greeny fields and that calm atmosphere. Thanks for care =)

mmmkay i am bad · Jun 15, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

i don't get it
"elite" areas are usually done with real people
so you don't want us to have heroes/henchies because noone will pug with you?
terrible idea, without h/h pve would be dead except for maybe farming
join a guild, get some friends to do stuff with you

AmbientMelody · Jun 15, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmmkay i am bad

i don't get it
"elite" areas are usually done with real people
so you don't want us to have heroes/henchies because noone will pug with you?
terrible idea, without h/h pve would be dead except for maybe farming
join a guild, get some friends to do stuff with you

It's not really the point. Read 'wall of text' few posts above.

Or in short - I'd like to change something about players mentality of going everywhere with h/h even if they don't have to.

english storm · Jun 15, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Terrible idea imo, there is nothing wrong with people that want to play with heroes playing with heroes in PvE! Get over it already please, the game is getting on and you can't expect the number of pugers to ever be what it was. I don't PvP so my idea might not work but, what about creating two tiers in PvP much like hero battles. Have one unrated and let people join with heroes, (note you should really change all z-quests to unrated if you do this). The other would be rated and ban people using heroes in it. The people who want to learn or are new can play unrated and the hard core PvP'ers can play rated to their hearts content with out running into heroes.

Would love if they ungank heroes in PvE as well. Let them use PvE skills, delete the 3 hero limit and let people use them in elite areas. I would be in heaven then as i would get a chance to play the areas at my own pace!

AmbientMelody · Jun 15, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by english storm

Terrible idea imo, there is nothing wrong with people that want to play with heroes playing with heroes in PvE! Get over it already please, the game is getting on and you can't expect the number of pugers to ever be what it was. I don't PvP so my idea might not work but, what about creating two tiers in PvP much like hero battles. Have one unrated and let people join with heroes, (note you should really change all z-quests to unrated if you do this). The other would be rated and ban people using heroes in it. The people who want to learn or are new can play unrated and the hard core PvP'ers can play rated to their hearts content with out running into heroes.

Would love if they ungank heroes in PvE as well. Let them use PvE skills, delete the 3 hero limit and let people use them in elite areas. I would be in heaven then as i would get a chance to play the areas at my own pace!

Which is both good and bad. On the short-term, it would be funny. On the long term it would kill any team spirit left.

aoeclald · Jun 15, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Which is both good and bad. On the short-term, it would be funny. On the long term it would kill any team spirit left.

Guild Wars is not a school and this thread is not a pep rally, so stop trying to be a cheerleader -- "team spirit". Also, that was his alternative suggestion that you wanted people to see rather than baseless "I hate this idea, /notsigned", so I don't see why you have a problem with what he has to say.

When will a moderator close this? D: All this is now is ping-pong discussion and no actual debate or progress in topic. It's clear that the general masses don't want it.

Hailey Anne · Jun 15, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

In none of the reviews it's actually stated you will end up playing alone with h/h unless you are in active guild

One of the things that IS there right on the box though is GUILD Wars.
Meaning find a good guild to play with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmbientMelody

Or in short - I'd like to change something about players mentality of going everywhere with h/h even if they don't have to.

Or you can change YOUR mentality of thinking it has to be your way or its not right.

Khyr Lord of Kaoz · Jun 15, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Heroes didn't destroyed GW they made GW. Because that's one thing GW offers that other games don't. If you want to play WoW, go play it. But don't take issue with what is a brilliant addition to the game.

I always enjoyed GW, but until heroes were introduced, I didn't like it as much. I'm not looking for social interaction in a game, I'm looking for enjoyment. I enjoy creating specs for me and my heroes and trying them out, to get through things solo. I paid as much money for the game as you did, maybe more. Am I less entitled to play a game my way.

Even Guilds. There are so many guilds around now, finding one with the right mix of people is like pulling teeth. Starting your own means finding like minded players to play with you, and that's like pulling teeth.

If you don't enjoy this fantastic game, because of its benefits, make some rules for yourself, start a guild and see if you can find like-minded people to play with you. But leave the rest of us out of it.

/unsigned for life