Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 30, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

if it was able to be kept up 3/4 of the time, made you immune to hexes and conditions, and allowed you to count yourself as a spirit to benefit the gains of conditional skills, THAT'S worth the elite spot annnnny day to me.

Oh, if we're including hexes and conditions, sure, but from the guy's wording it sounded like all it would do is make you count as a trigger when spells check for "spirit in range."

spirit of defeat · Mar 30, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Oh, if we're including hexes and conditions, sure, but from the guy's wording it sounded like all it would do is make you count as a trigger when spells check for "spirit in range."

If you where a spirit with all of it's properties, except the moving part I would consider it.

better idea
[spirit channeling]e5 c1 r30: for 1..45 seconds target ally binding ritual is binded to you and will follow you. If somehow the spirit can't follow you, it dies.

Magikarp · Mar 30, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

If you where a spirit with all of it's properties, except the moving part I would consider it.

better idea
[spirit channeling]e5 c1 r30: for 1..45 seconds target ally binding ritual is binded to you and will follow you. If somehow the spirit can't follow you, it dies.

no offense, but idk about all that. Sounds like there could be a lot of terrain bugs etc. I really like the idea of counting as a spirit, and being immune to hexes/conditions. That's just.. that's awesome.

spirit of defeat · Mar 30, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

no offense, but idk about all that. Sounds like there could be a lot of terrain bugs etc. I really like the idea of counting as a spirit, and being immune to hexes/conditions. That's just.. that's awesome.

Making you count as a spirit will also give lots of questions.
no hexes/conditions? then no enchantments as well.
No healing spells on you.
making the exception for walking I get but the rest.
will you be effected by [gaze from beyond][signet of creation]and such.
What if an enemy uses[Consume Soul] on you.

And the terrain bugs you mention don't matter that much, spirit could use the same AI as minions to walk. in FOW spirits do walk.

FengShuiDove · Mar 30, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I think the better idea of "counting as a spirit" would mean that you were: (1) Immune to some hexes and conditions and (2) fulfill the conditional for skills that read "If you are in range of a spirit."

In PvE, the conditionals that require a spirit to be in range are difficult to maintain because of the immobility of spirits themselves and the ease of having a spirit die. It takes an additional skill, ie [[Summon Spirits] on your bar to bring spirits with you or a low recharge spirit like [[Life].

Still, that's based on the functionality of some weak skills themselves, not the general applicability of Spawning Power as an attribute.

Magikarp · Mar 30, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

Making you count as a spirit will also give lots of questions.
no hexes/conditions? then no enchantments as well.
No healing spells on you.
making the exception for walking I get but the rest.
will you be effected by [gaze from beyond][signet of creation]and such.
What if an enemy uses[Consume Soul] on you.

And the terrain bugs you mention don't matter that much, spirit could use the same AI as minions to walk. in FOW spirits do walk.

You count as a spirit to your allies, not the enemy (consume soul wouldn't work on you then). As for the rest, yes, all of the skills affect you like a spirit (gaze/creation). I think it's only fair that you can't be affected by enchantments, but I think the clause "you are also a human" should be put into play though, so you can at least resto yourself or have support from your team.

Edit:

this is how I think it should look-

Spirit Channeling: 10 energy 2second cast 45sec recharge
Elite Skill. Lose all enchantments. For 0..26 seconds you Channel your own spirit and count as, and meet all of the conditions of being a spirit. You cannot have any enchantments cast on you, but you are immune to hexes and conditions. If you are suffering any hexes or conditions, they will expire 50% faster. When this skill ends, your skills are disabled for 10..5 seconds.

street peddler · Mar 30, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

id rather have it at just "hexes and conditions expire 50% faster" then have some clearly overpowered effect and a tacked on "your _______ skills are disabled for X".

you have to think about how that would effect PvP if you were completely immune, Rits are already heavily used as flag runners, and a flag runner that is immune to hexes and conditions 2/3's of the time is insane.

Magikarp · Mar 30, 2009, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

id rather have it at just "hexes and conditions expire 50% faster" then have some clearly overpowered effect and a tacked on "your _______ skills are disabled for X".

you have to think about how that would effect PvP if you were completely immune, Rits are already heavily used as flag runners, and a flag runner that is immune to hexes and conditions 2/3's of the time is insane.

then that would be good for a PvP only version. If it were just 50% in both PvE and PvP, no one would use it.

spirit of defeat · Mar 30, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

You count as a spirit to your allies, not the enemy (consume soul wouldn't work on you then). As for the rest, yes, all of the skills affect you like a spirit (gaze/creation). I think it's only fair that you can't be affected by enchantments, but I think the clause "you are also a human" should be put into play though, so you can at least resto yourself or have support from your team.

Edit:

this is how I think it should look-

Spirit Channeling: 10 energy 2second cast 45sec recharge
Elite Skill. Lose all enchantments. For 0..26 seconds you Channel your own spirit and count as, and meet all of the conditions of being a spirit. You cannot have any enchantments cast on you, but you are immune to hexes and conditions. If you are suffering any hexes or conditions, they will expire 50% faster. When this skill ends, your skills are disabled for 10..5 seconds.

That's quote a complicated skill. and you still don't know all effects.
you don't say you can walk, and you do say what happens when you alrdy had an enchantment on you. And stances? I don't think using stances over this one will be balanced. and can you be healed just like allies?

My "unbinding ideas doesn't have any of these problem's.
But I have to admin this is cooler.

my suggestion for this is:
[channeling spirit] elite skill 10e 30r
for 1-20 sec you count as a binding ritual. You have all aspects of a spirit, exept you can walk. And can't use stances. start effect you lose all active effects on you.

Logicly you can't use item spell's and weapon spells on your self. you can't be healed. only through [Spirit Boon Strike].
For GVG let's just say you can't hold item's.

let's be honnest this wil be hard to do technically. Simply sayed to many rules/exeptions.

street peddler · Apr 01, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

lol they buffed spawning power in the fake update. weapon spells last 50% longer for every rank in spawning power, seems pretty useful..

draxynnic · Apr 02, 2009, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Seemed to me that it was something intended to enrage both sides (if they didn't realise it was an April Fools). Doesn't give any incentive to run N/Rt-style builds as Rit primaries, and it might well have pigeonholed Ritualists even more.

On the other hand, consider Warmongering, Screaming Weapon or Weapon of Shadow with this...

spirit of defeat · Apr 02, 2009, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Seemed to me that it was something intended to enrage both sides (if they didn't realise it was an April Fools). Doesn't give any incentive to run N/Rt-style builds as Rit primaries, and it might well have pigeonholed Ritualists even more.

On the other hand, consider Warmongering, Screaming Weapon or Weapon of Shadow with this...

and consider splinter, vengefull and other end on effect spells

draxynnic · Apr 02, 2009, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit of defeat

and consider splinter, vengefull and other end on effect spells

That was part of the basis of the first hand - that while +500% (at SP10) to the duration of weapon skills looks powerful, in practise it wouldn't make much more difference to the commonly-used skills than +20% does now.

The three skills I listed would be the only ones significantly affected... and do we really want to see Ritualist primaries being pinholed as the guy (or, probably more likely, girl) whose job it is to maintain Warmongering/Screaming on the physicals and Shadow on the rest?

Nightow · Apr 03, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

That was part of the basis of the first hand - that while +500% (at SP10) to the duration of weapon skills looks powerful, in practise it wouldn't make much more difference to the commonly-used skills than +20% does now.

The three skills I listed would be the only ones significantly affected... and do we really want to see Ritualist primaries being pinholed as the guy (or, probably more likely, girl) whose job it is to maintain Warmongering/Screaming on the physicals and Shadow on the rest?

No but since the Rit Lord nerf they have been pushing us more towards a buffer / secondary healer role. If you think about it, there's not much else to a ritualist before you consider tossing in secondaries. Sure you have direct damage spells from channeling but we all know nuking is horrible and until (if ever) communing/spawning gets a good sized buff, our summoner role is pretty much useless. There are those "odd" (but sometimes powerful) spells like [binding chains] and [Spirit's Strength] but those I think are considered gimmicks.

To be honest, I really don't mind playing a support role or "the guy who maintains weapon spells on his front/midline" cause that's part of what a supporter does. They buff, buff some more and heal on the side. In other words, it's part of that extra edge that can really make a team work well and win in the end.

draxynnic · Apr 04, 2009, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Oh, the Ritualist is definitely a support character. Was intended to be all along. Even the Ritlord is support. Offensive spirit spam not so much, but that's pretty much a niche build outside of 1v1 scenarios.

(That said, I have found that in some situations (especially when defending a location), a battery of artillery spirits with Ghostly Might can dish out some significant punishment. Made the MOX quests a lot easier when I thought of it, for instance, especially NOX)

Thing is, the 50%/rank weapon duration buff would likely still havr left most builds being more powerful as N/Rts. A build built around Shadow, Wailing and/or Warmonger's would have exploded in effectiveness, of course, but for the others? Not so much.

Magikarp · Apr 04, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Simply put, the much needed buff to SP needs to be universal, so that way not just one small aspect (that would pigeon hole us more..) of the Rits skills. Maybe (referring back to an earlier post of mine) they could make it so for every 5 ranks of SP, you gain +1 to all of your non-SP Rit attribute lines.. that would be sweet.

street peddler · Apr 04, 2009, 04:40 AM // 04:40

i think just upping the percentages and buffing the skills is all that is needed. and most likely all that is going to happen. (but i dont think increasing the level of spawned creatures could hurt)

they could do some interesting things like taking a useless skill like [skill]spirit to flesh[/skill] and turning it into a ressurect with a 10s recharge that makes you immune to hexes for 0...10 seconds, to encourage investment into spawning power (and rit primaries).

They could make some SP direct heals too like [skill]weapon of renewal[/skill] becomes "5e 1/4s 5r the next time target ally takes damage from a foe, that ally steals 0...60 health and 0...3 energy from target foe."

and make some of the enchantments have less crazy requirements like [skill]renewing memories[/skill] and [skill]ghostly haste[/skill]. RM could easily drop the held item requirement without becoming overpowered, and ghostly haste could definitely lose the extremely limiting requirement of needing a spirit within earshot, and a duration boost (glyph of swiftness beats it in almost every way).

Nightow · Apr 04, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

(That said, I have found that in some situations (especially when defending a location), a battery of artillery spirits with Ghostly Might can dish out some significant punishment. Made the MOX quests a lot easier when I thought of it, for instance, especially NOX)

Yes, I am familiar with the build that you are talking about and it's variations. (The first one used [Assassin's Promise] I believe) It can be powerful with the right set up but only if you have a solid front line and no hex removal on the enemy's side. lacking in either department and the build quickly drops in dps/efficiency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Thing is, the 50%/rank weapon duration buff would likely still have left most builds being more powerful as N/Rts. A build built around Shadow, Wailing and/or Warmonger's would have exploded in effectiveness, of course, but for the others? Not so much.

Now I see what you meant originally and I have to agree. For summoning to be powerful enough, it must affect multiple if not all facets of the ritualist profession. Namely Weapon Spells, Binding Rituals and Item Spells. We've already listed most if not all of the possible changes they could make but if they make it lean too heavily towards one facet of the profession, it still won't be enough to really make a difference.

Spawning already affects weapon spells and binding rituals but lacks an effect for item spells. This reminds me of a suggestion someone had for a buff. It was to include an effect similar to [[email protected]]'s and just change that skill to something different entirely. This way when we use skills like [Pure Was Li Ming], we won't be loosing out on our max energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Simply put, the much needed buff to SP needs to be universal, so that way not just one small aspect (that would pigeon hole us more..) of the Rits skills. Maybe (referring back to an earlier post of mine) they could make it so for every 5 ranks of SP, you gain +1 to all of your non-SP Rit attribute lines.. that would be sweet.

I really can't see any skills that would benefit from a change in attribute points from 14 to 15/16 except for maybe making it easier to hit [splinter weapon]'s 5 attack breakpoint. =\

draxynnic · Apr 04, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightow

I really can't see any skills that would benefit from a change in attribute points from 14 to 15/16 except for maybe making it easier to hit [splinter weapon]'s 5 attack breakpoint. =\

It'd be interesting to see.

It WOULD provide an incentive to use Rit primaries in particular and Spawning Power in general. If you're running two attributes (Channeling and Restoration, say), a 12/11/6 spread would be superior to the more traditional (for Ritualists) 12/12/3 spread. Or you could leverage Spawning Power even more by taking a 11/10/10 spread - which become equivalent to a 13/12/10 spread. Before runes.

For single attribute Ritualists, there is also an advantage- where normally a single-attribute Ritualist would grab Energy Storage or Soul Reaping, they could instead fill out Spawning Power to get an effective +2 on their attribute - which becomes an effective +4-6 once runes are considered. It may be a fairly subtle difference, but in combination with the fact that Spawning Power does in fact have some decent skills in its own line, it does provide a decent answer as to why it shouldn't be ignored entirely. And if that isn't enough, it could be made to kick in every 4 ranks instead of every 5 - making a third breakpoint easily achievable and putting a fourth within reach. Or make the bonus from SP work on itself...

Magikarp · Apr 04, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

It'd be interesting to see.

It WOULD provide an incentive to use Rit primaries in particular and Spawning Power in general. If you're running two attributes (Channeling and Restoration, say), a 12/11/6 spread would be superior to the more traditional (for Ritualists) 12/12/3 spread. Or you could leverage Spawning Power even more by taking a 11/10/10 spread - which become equivalent to a 13/12/10 spread. Before runes.

For single attribute Ritualists, there is also an advantage- where normally a single-attribute Ritualist would grab Energy Storage or Soul Reaping, they could instead fill out Spawning Power to get an effective +2 on their attribute - which becomes an effective +4-6 once runes are considered. It may be a fairly subtle difference, but in combination with the fact that Spawning Power does in fact have some decent skills in its own line, it does provide a decent answer as to why it shouldn't be ignored entirely. And if that isn't enough, it could be made to kick in every 4 ranks instead of every 5 - making a third breakpoint easily achievable and putting a fourth within reach. Or make the bonus from SP work on itself...

This is exactly what I'm talking about! I think it would overall push the want of SP for that +attribute bonus, and still wouldn't be enough to "break" the game. I personally (in an earlier post in this thread) said it should be every 3 ranks of SP, but I didn't want that to appear OP either. The idea that it works on itself (meaning some bonus to SP) is awesome imo, simply because the attribute gain would be awesome, but would require some sacrifice if you were to go all the way for max attribute bonus (especially in PvP).

Imagine

12+1 Spawning would equal 15 Spawning which could make a split..
10+(3)+Rune of choice
8+(3)+Rune of choice

MORE than enough to make SP sexy :P